Ask a Catholic

[ding]

According to your standards the Church is backing abortion and you as a member of the Church are too.

This statement is exactly why we are done. According to MY standards the Church is NOT backing abortion and you keep hurling and applying you own misconception at me. I am sick of it! I stated ad nauseum I am focused on a single present-day issue of two Catholic politicians wishing to expand abortion and use taxpayer funds for abortions.

This SPECIFIC issue is all that I have been addressing and I am arguing why I believe the Church should be telling these Catholic politicians that expanding abortion to cover the full nine months AND having taxpayers fund abortions is wrong. These two politicians want to pull all Catholic taxpayers into funding a program that ends life. I believe the Church needs to tell these two politicians--who are always proclaiming to be Catholic--that this expansion of abortion and abortion funding crosses the line into excommunication.

Ding, disagree with this single point all you want BUT DON'T YOU DARE TO AGAIN to state that my position is that the Church backs abortion. IT DOES NOT! IT DOES NOT! THE CHURCH DOES NOT AND I NEVER SAID IT DID!!!!! Can you get that through your thick head?
We're done! If I were you, I would let it be. I am incredibly angry. I've been pinpointing a single issue and you keep broadening the scope beyond what I am saying into something I would NEVER say. I expect better of you!

According to you not speaking out against politicians who are Catholic and support abortion is backing abortion. So since the Church has not spoken out against Catholics who are politicians that support abortions, the Church is backing abortions . This is your logic. It is not my logic. My logic is that if that is your position then by association you are backing abortions too. I don't agree with your logic. You have equivocated and made false analogies because you are too emotional on this subject and cannot be objective. I am trying to help you get out of the corner you have painted yourself into.

 

[Meriweather]

According to you not speaking out against politicians who are Catholic and support abortion is backing abortion.

Stop with the lie! That is not "according to" me. What is wrong with you!

 

[Meriweather]

So since the Church has not spoken out against Catholics who are politicians that support abortions, the Church is backing abortions .

If that is your take on it. It is not, however, MY take. As I have said at least twice in this thread alone the Church's position on the State allowing for abortion is that free will of the individual comes into play. However, when Catholic politicians begin to push for a nine-month expansion for abortions AND have want abortions to be funded by taxpayers, it crosses the line into forcing some taxpayers into paying for abortions which these taxpayers believe is wrong.

My position is that the Church should tell all Catholics, particularly Catholic politicians, that pushing for abortions at nine months (particularly) and for taxpayers to fund abortions is crossing the line into excommunication. As I understand it, your position is that a Catholic politician is free to do just this without any fear of being excommunicated from the Catholic Church. I am not arguing against you (or anyone else) taking this position, but because of the Church's stand on life and being against abortion, my opinion is that the Church should speak out against Catholics favoring taxpayer funded abortions.

Yes, I know. And for the tenth time you are going to insist I am "really" saying that the Church backs abortions. Unbelievable.

 

[Colin norris]

The stridency of your position is one reason why so many are leaving the church.

You act like abortion is the only issue that matters.

Then you miss the point. I am speaking of the Church hierarchy. How often have you heard that the Catholic Church did not do enough to condemn the owning of slaves? That the Church did not do enough to condemn the Nazis? Is that being strident or is it merely pointing out that the very people who should have stepped forward instead stepped back? How do you feel about the positions the Church took on slaves and Nazis? Do you believe the Church should do the same with abortion?

I don't know how much you have read on the exchange in which Ding and I are engaging. We both agree that abortion, like any other sin, can be forgiven. We both agree that politicians can take the position that a person's own free will can come into play regarding aborting her own fetus.

Where we disagree is whether or not the Church should take a stand when Catholic politicians begin pushing unlimited abortions (up to the ninth month) along with pushing taxpayer funded abortions.

What do you think? In due time will history not only frown on the Church's lack of action on slavery, on Nazism...but also on abortion?

So, no, I don't act like abortion is the only issue that matters--but right now I am focused on what the Church (not the individual) is doing on this particular issue.

Abortion is not a sin. It's a democratic right of a women to control her body. The arrogance of you God botherers to barge into the wombs and force your beliefs be abuse of your filthy religion. Sin was invented by religion as just another threat line hell.

The Vatican did a deal with the Nazis to protect their enclave. They didn't give a shit about them killing others. That's a fact.

Abortions are as common in all religions and non religious and at the same pro rata so don't suggest only atheists etc are guilty.

No person of any religion is advocating abortion at nine months. That is a blatant lie and you know it. Post facts, Not propaganda.

 

[Meriweather]

No person of any religion is advocating abortion at nine months.

Yet laws are being passed to include nine months. Google it.

 

[Meriweather]

Abortions are as common in all religions and non religious and at the same pro rata so don't suggest only atheists etc are guilty.

Where did I even whisper, let alone suggest, "only atheists are guilty"! Many of the atheists I know are very much against abortion. You may also note that I wasn't even talking about any politician other than a couple who proclaim to be Catholic. From there you jump to the conclusion I am speaking of atheists and people who are not politicians. Unbelievable.

 

[BreezeWood]

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abortion is no different than any other form of birth control, the nefarious religious simply want the control in a way they are in control and not the choice of those most in need to make the personal decision by their own volition. and have done so in vast numbers the pseudo religious are loathed to tolerate.

 

[Colin norris]

No person of any religion is advocating abortion at nine months.

Yet laws are being passed to include nine months. Google it.

The laws have not been approved and never will unless the mother's life is in danger .
Stop fabricating lies to suit your religion.
I don't think your God would approve of that unless you get special dispensation because you are doing it to atheist and democrats.

 

[Meriweather]

The laws have not been approved and never will unless the mother's life is in danger .
Stop fabricating lies to suit your religion.
I don't think your God would approve of that unless you get special dispensation because you are doing it to atheist and democrats.

Look at what the law does approve and is not "fabricated". Look at what is trying to be approved. It appears you will be glad to speak out against some of it. My point is on who should speak out against such proposals--I wasn't trying to get you or any citizen to speak out against it. Would you protest the Catholic Church speaking out against such proposals? (Keep in mind the Church does not speak out against the laws as they stand now. The Church is against abortion, while honoring free will.)

Seriously, I think you and Ding are after an argument about something I have not and am not even addressing. It is encouraging to hear you don't think the laws will ever go any further than they have gone today. A different point and an interesting one--but not what I was addressing. I was addressing when the Catholic Church should speak out, not when anyone else should.

I am not doing anything to "atheists" and "democrats". My very specific focus on what the Church ought to be doing, when, not what atheists, democrats, you and Ding ought to be doing presently because I think you can and will do what you want. And that's fine with me. If you want an argument, find someone else or talk about when/if you think the Church should speak out about expanding abortion further and/or to have taxpayer funded abortions.

 

[Colin norris]

The laws have not been approved and never will unless the mother's life is in danger .
Stop fabricating lies to suit your religion.
I don't think your God would approve of that unless you get special dispensation because you are doing it to atheist and democrats.

Look at what the law does approve and is not "fabricated". Look at what is trying to be approved. It appears you will be glad to speak out against some of it. My point is on who should speak out against such proposals--I wasn't trying to get you or any citizen to speak out against it. Would you protest the Catholic Church speaking out against such proposals? (Keep in mind the Church does not speak out against the laws as they stand now. The Church is against abortion, while honoring free will.)

Seriously, I think you and Ding are after an argument about something I have not and am not even addressing. It is encouraging to hear you don't think the laws will ever go any further than they have gone today. A different point and an interesting one--but not what I was addressing. I was addressing when the Catholic Church should speak out, not when anyone else should.

I am not doing anything to "atheists" and "democrats". My very specific focus on what the Church ought to be doing, when, not what atheists, democrats, you and Ding ought to be doing presently because I think you can and will do what you want. And that's fine with me. If you want an argument, find someone else or talk about when/if you think the Church should speak out about expanding abortion further and/or to have taxpayer funded abortions.

The church is the pinnacle of hypocrisy when it comes to abortion. They don't not promote free will but openly rail against contraception.
I suspect you are against abortion period because of your religion.
The church need not be consulted or criticised. They are ignored even by adherents. The abortion rates of religious women is no different to atheists for instance, on a pro rata.

When democrats passed laws to allow women to control their bodies, all th e godbotherers exploded. They implied they were saying gods word but they weren't.

So many people get uptight about the sacrifice of an unborn child but never care a hoot after that child is born into poverty and suffers all its life. Where are those so caring godbotherers when he needs them.?

They don't care about millions of kids in africa who die of malnutrition when they should have been sacrificed early.
It's filthy religion which forbids contraception by the women.
Contraception is the ONLY cure to poverty in the world.

 

[Meriweather]

The church is the pinnacle of hypocrisy when it comes to abortion. They don't not promote free will but openly rail against contraception.

The Church promotes natural contraception.

 

[Meriweather]

I suspect you are against abortion period because of your religion.

Then you suspect wrong. One reason I am against abortion is because I had a front row seat to babies arriving at the most inconvenient times, yet it all worked out beautifully. Then I had a couple of friends whose parents pushed them into having abortions, and they never quite got over it--especially after later children arrived.

 

[Meriweather]

The church need not be consulted or criticised. They are ignored even by adherents. The abortion rates of religious women is no different to atheists for instance, on a pro rata.

No reason for non-Catholics to do either. You are correct about abortion rates. However, when an organization professes to stand for something, then is it right for them to crawl away and hide? If they don't believe in sacredness of the gift of life or want to compromise, that is one thing. Then that's the statement that should be made.

 

[BreezeWood]

The church is the pinnacle of hypocrisy when it comes to abortion. They don't not promote free will but openly rail against contraception.

The Church promotes natural contraception.

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The Church promotes natural contraception.

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there has never been anyone in your church than crucifiers -
.

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you are no different.

 

[Meriweather]

So many people get uptight about the sacrifice of an unborn child but never care a hoot after that child is born into poverty and suffers all its life. Where are those so caring godbotherers when he needs them.?

They don't care about millions of kids in africa who die of malnutrition when they should have been sacrificed early.

This is pre-supposing only the poor seek abortions. I doubt statistics will bear that out. Isn't convenience up there in deciding factors? I work with believers who work with the poor. We are there.

 

[Meriweather]

They don't care about millions of kids in africa who die of malnutrition when they should have been sacrificed early.
It's filthy religion which forbids contraception by the women.
Contraception is the ONLY cure to poverty in the world.

Who is speaking of Africa? I am focused on the USA. Again, contraception is not forbidden, natural contraception is encouraged.

Isn't this more about recreational sex, that people give ease, convenience and their sexual pleasure a greater priority than another life? Abortion isn't exactly known as a great act of self-sacrifice.

 

[Colin norris]

They don't care about millions of kids in africa who die of malnutrition when they should have been sacrificed early.
It's filthy religion which forbids contraception by the women.
Contraception is the ONLY cure to poverty in the world.

Who is speaking of Africa? I am focused on the USA. Again, contraception is not forbidden, natural contraception is encouraged.

Isn't this more about recreational sex, that people give ease, convenience and their sexual pleasure a greater priority than another life? Abortion isn't exactly known as a great act of self-sacrifice.

My point is you care more about a 6 week old foetus than you do about millions of children. Its your filthy religion which drives you towards yoyr hypocrisy.

Contraception was forbidden under Catholicism but now it's just ignored

They don't care about millions of kids in africa who die of malnutrition when they should have been sacrificed early.
It's filthy religion which forbids contraception by the women.
Contraception is the ONLY cure to poverty in the world.

Who is speaking of Africa? I am focused on the USA. Again, contraception is not forbidden, natural contraception is encouraged.

Isn't this more about recreational sex, that people give ease, convenience and their sexual pleasure a greater priority than another life? Abortion isn't exactly known as a great act of self-sacrifice.

Of course your focused on the USA be abuse that's what all you Jesus junkies think of.
You get upset about a six week old piece of meat but dont give a rat's about millions of little kids who died bevause they couldn't access abortions or birth control because their filthy religion forbids it.
Catholicism banned contraception until recently when now they simply ignore it.

As for relying on a calender, isn't that a typical hypocritical godbotherers point of view. Its your filthy religion and propaganda spread by religious republicans which is responsible for most of the unwanted children.
Why don't you keep your rosaries off their ovaries.
It's no business of religion what women do with their bodies and the fact it is still happening is testimony to how they ignore the religious crap.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Why does the Vatican allow such commercialization outside its gates? There are loads of stalls selling all sorts of cheesy tat including posters of young good-looking priests and even calendars of them. What sort of message is that ?

 

[Meriweather]

Why does the Vatican allow such commercialization outside its gates? There are loads of stalls selling all sorts of cheesy tat including posters of young good-looking priests and even calendars of them. What sort of message is that ?

I don't know. If this occurs outside the Vatican City gates, then zoning and permits would be through the secular government in Rome, correct? Vatican City, under control of the Church, is a very small area. It is certainly not a spiritual message, but as you put it, "cheesy" (my opinion, I have never seen it).

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Why does the Vatican allow such commercialization outside its gates? There are loads of stalls selling all sorts of cheesy tat including posters of young good-looking priests and even calendars of them. What sort of message is that ?

I don't know. If this occurs outside the Vatican City gates, then zoning and permits would be through the secular government in Rome, correct? Vatican City, under control of the Church, is a very small area. It is certainly not a spiritual message, but as you put it, "cheesy" (my opinion, I have never seen it).

I think it is within the city limits.