Are you born with spiritual needs ?

[jillian]

This post is self-evidently ignorant.

What is ignorant is blurring the lines between religion and science and pretending that religion is as legitimate. Religion and science can be complimentary, with each serving their intended purpose. But they are not interchangeable.

 

[manu1959]

What is ignorant is blurring the lines between religion and science and pretending that religion is as legitimate. Religion and science can be complimentary, with each serving their intended purpose. But they are not interchangeable.

they are in a muslim world

 

[jillian]

they are in a muslim world

And they're your gauge for what's right?

 

[manu1959]

And they're your gauge for what's right?

nope .... just sharing an observation .... what gauge do you use if not a religous moral one?

 

[manu1959]

Sorry buddy, but the bible and common sense don't go hand and hand.

why is that?

It has always struck me as odd that all y'all lose all common sense when discussing the bible and god.

while on all other topics there is room for grey and tollerance and acceptance but when god and the bible show up the answer is black and white ..... pity

 

[jillian]

nope .... just sharing an observation .... what gauge do you use if not a religous moral one?

I use a moral gauge. Do you think only religous people are moral? Because I've seen lots of so-called religious people do all sorts of immoral things and I've known plenty of moral people who aren't particularly religious, if at all.

 

[Eightball]

Wow! Where did you get the idea that only a religious person can appreciate things? Ambition, desire, charity, creativity, etc are all traits born of intelligence, not faith.

As for instictual behavior, we've lost most of our instincts through non-use of them. Our intelligence has made us independent of them.

I thought I asked the question in a fairly clear and concise way?

You mention that ambition, desire, charity, creativity....etc are born of intelligence.........please explain how increased intelligence.......spawns ambition, desire, charity, creativity, etc.........?

Does intelligence have some kind of "drive" in it as it increases that causes "smarter" animals to desire, create, become charitable, creativity?

I don't think you have given me a reason for intelligence being the "magic pill". I want to know "why" or "how" intelligence spawns all these traits that counter the behaviours of the rest of the animal world.

What drives a human to be charitable, to desire, to want to create things, to have ambition? Are you saying that high I.Q. humans are more charitable than lower I.Q. humans.........per/capita? I'm basing this example on you saying that intelligence is the motivator, or difference.

If you asked me to tell you why there is "air", and I said, "because it's needed", I think you would find that lacking in the "why" department. Most likely you would want to know how oxygen, nitrogen, helium, hydrogen, etc. ended up in it's particular percentages, and where it came from before it was part of an atmosphere.

I'm also asking about the "push" or "drive" that makes us human distinctive from the rest of the advanced mammalian world. Cave drawings..............why........? Do Chimps do drawings................Why not? Why did early man draw pictures..............why did ancient man show pity on the weak........Many of man's behaviours counter survivalist tendencies that protect or promote the best and strongest of a species............We seem to operate in a very anti-Darwinian way...........as we try to save the lives of our species that may or may not benefit the furthering of our species survival. In other words, we show something called compassion.

How is compassion, connected to "intelligence", or increased intelligence?

Missleman: If intelligence is the reason...............What is it about intelligence that spawns these human behaviours?
*

 

[glockmail]

What is ignorant is blurring the lines between religion and science and pretending that religion is as legitimate. Religion and science can be complimentary, with each serving their intended purpose. But they are not interchangeable.

1. Christianity deals with Truth, therefore is just as legitimate as science, if not more. I have seen many scientists resort to politics when their "scientific" arguments fall apart.
2. Perhaps you could reference where I stated that they were interchangeable.

 

[jillian]

1. Christianity deals with Truth, therefore is just as legitimate as science, if not more. I have seen many scientists resort to politics when their "scientific" arguments fall apart.
2. Perhaps you could reference where I stated that they were interchangeable.

Christianity only deals in "Truth" if you happen to be Christian. To me, it's an interesting study in theology, like the other belief systems that aren't mine. I enjoy learning about them, but my own beliefs are "truth" to me.... as are everyone else's beliefs to them.

So no.... Christianity doesn't deal in "truth". Ideally it deals in spirituality and feeds the souls of the people who believe in it.... as my beliefs feed mine.

Oh... and you didn't SAY they were interchangeable. But bringing religion to scientific debate and blurring those lines speaks for itself. You don't HAVE to say it.

 

[glockmail]

.....Oh... and you didn't SAY they were interchangeable. But bringing religion to scientific debate and blurring those lines speaks for itself. You don't HAVE to say it.

If I had taken this stance surely someone would call me a liar.

 

[MissileMan]

I thought I asked the question in a fairly clear and concise way?

You mention that ambition, desire, charity, creativity....etc are born of intelligence.........please explain how increased intelligence.......spawns ambition, desire, charity, creativity, etc.........?

Does intelligence have some kind of "drive" in it as it increases that causes "smarter" animals to desire, create, become charitable, creativity?

I don't think you have given me a reason for intelligence being the "magic pill". I want to know "why" or "how" intelligence spawns all these traits that counter the behaviours of the rest of the animal world.

What drives a human to be charitable, to desire, to want to create things, to have ambition? Are you saying that high I.Q. humans are more charitable than lower I.Q. humans.........per/capita? I'm basing this example on you saying that intelligence is the motivator, or difference.

If you asked me to tell you why there is "air", and I said, "because it's needed", I think you would find that lacking in the "why" department. Most likely you would want to know how oxygen, nitrogen, helium, hydrogen, etc. ended up in it's particular percentages, and where it came from before it was part of an atmosphere.

I'm also asking about the "push" or "drive" that makes us human distinctive from the rest of the advanced mammalian world. Cave drawings..............why........? Do Chimps do drawings................Why not? Why did early man draw pictures..............why did ancient man show pity on the weak........Many of man's behaviours counter survivalist tendencies that protect or promote the best and strongest of a species............We seem to operate in a very anti-Darwinian way...........as we try to save the lives of our species that may or may not benefit the furthering of our species survival. In other words, we show something called compassion.

How is compassion, connected to "intelligence", or increased intelligence?

Missleman: If intelligence is the reason...............What is it about intelligence that spawns these human behaviours?
*

It is our intelligence that differentiates us from animals and therefore makes sense as the cause of our different behavior. As for other-than-human creativity in the animal kingdom, there have been chimpanzees observed using rudimentary tools. Does that mean those chimps are religious?

 

[Eightball]

It is our intelligence that differentiates us from animals and therefore makes sense as the cause of our different behavior. As for other-than-human creativity in the animal kingdom, there have been chimpanzees observed using rudimentary tools. Does that mean those chimps are religious?

Here we go again........intelligence is the key..........What is it about extra intelligence that stimulates creativity?

You just keep telling me.....intelligence is it.......,but you don't tell me why? What motivates this extra intelligence we have to go forth with "ambition", "desire", "creativity", "compassion"?

To tell me that "intelligence" causes it to happen is not to explain the "why" it causes it.

Tool making is indeed an elementary, beginning sign of creativity, but I'll tell you there's a big "leap" between sticking a twig in a termite hole and licking the termites off of the twig, or using the chewed-up green leaf as a water sponge as observed by Mss. Goodall, the famous chimp lady of the National Geographic.

Chimps don't sign up for social causes, vote, paint the Mona Lisa. Chimps create to survive........Humans go beyond survival with a creativity unmatched or uncomparable to other species in it's intent, or reason.

Ok, we have higher intelligence..........so what makes use that intelligence in subjective ways..........like music.....composing..........whistling a tune........winking in a playful jest........telling a joke.........laughing at ourselves.......planning a future for ourselves or our family.

 

[nt250]

I hope that isn't taken in a critical way by any person or group of persons, but I do have a question here.

Atheistala Merriam Webster

Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity
- athe·is·tic /"A-thE-'is-tik/ or athe·is·ti·cal /"A-thE-'is-ti-k&l/ adjective
- athe·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

deity ala Merriam Webster

Main Entry: de·i·ty
Pronunciation: 'dE-&-tE, 'dA-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English deitee, from Anglo-French deité, from Late Latin deitat-, deitas, from Latin deus god; akin to Old English TIw, god of war, Latin divus god, dies day, Greek dios heavenly, Sanskrit deva heavenly, god
1 a : the rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY b capitalized : GOD 1, : SUPREME BEING
2 : a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece>
3 : one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful
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Ok.......I didn't insert the above definitions to impress anyone. I did do this in order to establish a base-point to my question.
*
Question:

I got a lot of flak for my comments about the rare existence of atheists(my opinion) in the human race.

I will come from the direction of assuming that I'm addressing this question to pure atheists in the very letter of it's definition.

Human existence, human survival, human strife, human challenges, human goals, child rearing, professions, possessions, health needs..........: I'm sure I could make the list much longer, but I would like to ask all resident "atheists", what or where does your motivation of "life" or "survival" in this terrestrial life on planet earth come from? What generates the desire to "succeed", to achieve goals, to enjoy other's accomplishments both your self, your progeny, and even folks or persons that are not economical or DNA related to you?

If life ends for the human being at one's last breath or heart beat, what motivates or compells the atheist to do or desire to do the previous paragraph's observations of human beings, both atheist and "religious"?

As an atheist, what motivates you to appreciate art, or the nurture of the weak? What motivates you to explore the micro, and macro aspects of this material world? It will all end for you when you die, so why even enrich one's life with knowledge of any kind, or even help one's species to survive......via nurture, encouragement, national defense, whatever?

Why do you, human atheist have compassion towards the weak, the minority, the oppressed, etc? Does it enhance your earthly life, or benefit you?

Does the animal world, excluding man have compassion on the weak, the "different", not-so-perfect? No. The animal world aside from man has no time or patience to nurture, to save, to intervene, but only to let all things just "be". Animal mothers, neglect runts and feed their strong progeny. Animals peck to death(chickens) their own when they show the slightest signs of weakness or difference from the the exterior norm of physical appearance or even acceptable behaviour.

Why do you, atheist, have compassion, concern for the weak of your species, or enjoy aesthetic things? What causes you to differentiate/differ from the the rest of the animal kingdom in these marked ways?

Is the answer, that you were taught to be nurturing, or compassionate, or interested in science, and why, what, and how you exist? Is all this because your brain is bigger than most mammals when compared to your body mass?
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These questions are only to stimulate discussion, not arguing, and really do have me stumped.
*
Although man of the animal world is basically devoid of instinct, he/she does have an inate desire to do things, hope things, desire things, and also an out-of-character trait of nuture to both the weak/abnormal/suffering/less fortunate/different........of it's species, while the rest of the animal world has taken a different "path". To attribute this to a larger cranial capacity or to over-developed lobes in the brain versus other mammalians doesn't really answer this "subjective" trait.

I don't understand why these questions stump you.

What makes people look for a deeper meaning? Why do people care what happens after they die? When I'm dead I'll be dead. Aside from hoping it doesn't hurt, I don't care.

What makes you laugh at a joke?

You think way too much.

 

[manu1959]

I don't understand why these questions stump you.

What makes people look for a deeper meaning? Why do people care what happens after they die? When I'm dead I'll be dead. Aside from hoping it doesn't hurt, I don't care.

What makes you laugh at a joke?

You think way too much.

a deeper meaning.....it would be nice to leave behind something more than you ate slept and shit

when you are dead you are gone it would be nice to be remembered for something good and be able to watch the impact from afar.

having watched people die...it hurts

you laugh at things that make you uncomfortable

 

[CharlestonChad]

a deeper meaning.....it would be nice to leave behind something more than you ate slept and shit

when you are dead you are gone it would be nice to be remembered for something good and be able to watch the impact from afar.

A legacy is not something you are born with the desire to have.

 

[manu1959]

A legacy is not something you are born with the desire to have.

your opinion has been noted.....sadly you are wrong....procreation and thus a legacy is biologically imprinted at birth

 

[MissileMan]

Ok, we have higher intelligence..........so what makes use that intelligence in subjective ways..........like music.....composing..........whistling a tune........winking in a playful jest........telling a joke.........laughing at ourselves.......planning a future for ourselves or our family.

What else would you you expect us to do with our higher intellect? The reason I don't believe that these things are spiritual is because there are plenty of non-spiritual people who exhibit all of those traits too. While I can't explain the exact mechanism of intelligence that leads to creativity, ambition, etc, their existence among only more intelligent species leads to that conclusion.

Check this out:

From: http://www.universityscience.ie/pages/scimat_I_drill_therefore_I_am.php

Yet another species barrier has been broken. Chimpanzees have been videotaped with tool kits. Not just sticks, mind you, but three different kinds of sticks for different purposes, some modified (by chewing on the end, for instance) to make them more efficient.

And this:
From:http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn8797.html

No reward

The researchers studied what three captive-raised young chimps would do when a familiar human caretaker dropped an object out of her reach.

All three chimps were more likely to pick up the object and hand it to the caretaker when she reached for the object than when she merely looked at the object. Click here to see a video of a helpful chimp in action. This suggests that the chimps understood the human's goal and tried to help, says Warneken – even though they received no reward or praise.

 

[Eightball]

What else would you you expect us to do with our higher intellect? The reason I don't believe that these things are spiritual is because there are plenty of non-spiritual people who exhibit all of those traits too. While I can't explain the exact mechanism of intelligence that leads to creativity, ambition, etc, their existence among only more intelligent species leads to that conclusion.

Check this out:

From: http://www.universityscience.ie/pages/scimat_I_drill_therefore_I_am.php



And this:
From:http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn8797.html

Missleman: I think we will be at "logger heads" with this issue as I come from the direction that man is basically a spiritual being, and you don't. Am I correct in that assumption?

Actually, I believe that all life has some sort of a "spark" or "spirit" of sort or it would be just a mish-mash of ordered molecules but with no inner drive to reproduce itself and or survive. I think that also is an area of differentiation between us.........Am I correct that assumption too?

Some how science in disregarding intelligent design or intervention believes that the right combination of elements in a "soup" with umpteen billion years to stew and intermix, will and could inevitably by happen-chance strike a perfect molecular combination that has the "will" to reproduce itself.............resulting in primitive life.

I find that quite a stretch of faith from my perspective.
*
I wonder why life even has the drive to defend itself from destruction. Where did it get that information. Through trial and error? That would even add a few more umpteen billion years onto the crap-shoot chance of coming up with the right organic molecular combo by chance, that will reproduce itself?
*

 

[CharlestonChad]

your opinion has been noted.....sadly you are wrong....procreation and thus a legacy is biologically imprinted at birth

Your opinion has been noted....sadly it is the opinion of someone who has no education in the field of psychology.

 

[MissileMan]

Missleman: I think we will be at "logger heads" with this issue as I come from the direction that man is basically a spiritual being, and you don't. Am I correct in that assumption?

Actually, I believe that all life has some sort of a "spark" or "spirit" of sort or it would be just a mish-mash of ordered molecules but with no inner drive to reproduce itself and or survive. I think that also is an area of differentiation between us.........Am I correct that assumption too?

Some how science in disregarding intelligent design or intervention believes that the right combination of elements in a "soup" with umpteen billion years to stew and intermix, will and could inevitably by happen-chance strike a perfect molecular combination that has the "will" to reproduce itself.............resulting in primitive life.

I find that quite a stretch of faith from my perspective.
*
I wonder why life even has the drive to defend itself from destruction. Where did it get that information. Through trial and error? That would even add a few more umpteen billion years onto the crap-shoot chance of coming up with the right organic molecular combo by chance, that will reproduce itself?
*

When evidence of the existence of a soul or spirit is produced, I will consider the matter further. The evidence of humans' intellect compared to other living beings is tangible,concrete, and irrefutable. This evidence doesn't require any conjecture, or faith, or interpretation of any spiritual handbooks. I don't have to believe it exists, hope it exists, or pray it exists...it exists.