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I am discussing the idea of using a 'protopia' approach of pragmatic results enhanced by strong AI computerized services to connect the points of supple/service to those who need it, etc.Well.....Close to 100 million dead, innocent men, women and children didn't get us there.....so....those who believe in Utopia must think killing more of the right people will do the trick...since they haven't gotten the point yet....
Not really Utopia, though I think we can, by7 this means, approach it to the point of practically acheiving Utopia for the vast majority of us.
Why do you want to live in a jungle?
Irrelevant semantic parsing and fudging....Orwell would be proud.Why not?....Tremendously centralized power in the hands of The State...The kind of power that attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, like a moth to a flame.So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.
Why Utopian Communities Fail - Areo
Once again we see a resurgence of interest in intentional communities and in Utopian experiments in living communally. Even Time Magazine is advocating such ways of living as a solution…View Postareomagazine.com
The following are things I have diagnosed from first-hand observation that go wrong when we try to turn Utopia into a real location. As my ventures involved other intentional communities as well, rather than explain all of their contexts, and to protect anonymity, I refer throughout to several of the communities as “Community X.”
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Utopia Is a Dangerous Ideal: We Should Aim for âProtopiaâ
Everybody knows that nobody’s perfect. So why do we still strive for perfection when there could be a better path?getpocket.com
What, then, should replace the idea of utopia? One answer can be found in another neologism – protopia – incremental progress in steps toward improvement, not perfection. As the futurist Kevin Kelly describes his coinage:Protopia is a state that is better today than yesterday, although it might be only a little better. Protopia is much much harder to visualise. Because a protopia contains as many new problems as new benefits, this complex interaction of working and broken is very hard to predict. In my book The Moral Arc (2015), I showed how protopian progress best describes the monumental moral achievements of the past several centuries: the attenuation of war, the abolishment of slavery, the end of torture and the death penalty, universal suffrage, liberal democracy, civil rights and liberties, same-sex marriage and animal rights. These are all examples of protopian progress in the sense that they happened one small step at a time.A protopian future is not only practical, it is realisable.
Now lets take Protopia, add many multiple Super AI enabling programs that can assist people in finding what they need and how to get/make it, and we have a Protopia that is progressing toward Utopia, Add in Space astyeroid mining giving us unlimited resources, and I think we have Utopia for all practical purposes.
Why not?
That's why.
Why the Worst Humans Are Able to Rise to Power | Brittany Hunter
History’s most notorious dictators did not rise to power randomly. And in The Road to Serfdom, Hayek explains why the most despicable people always end up with political power and why, to paraphrase Lord Acton, absolute power always corrupts absolutely.fee.org
"Minimal government" won't stay that way....We're living the proof right now.
The concept of "Utopia" does not require a "state" or a "government". Open your horizons.
Matter of fact the alleged "478" intentional communities cited in the OP are not governments either. Hate to be the one to break this to summa y'all but there's way more to life than government and politics.
Irrelevant semantic parsing and fudging....Orwell would be proud.Why not?....Tremendously centralized power in the hands of The State...The kind of power that attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, like a moth to a flame.So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.
Why Utopian Communities Fail - Areo
Once again we see a resurgence of interest in intentional communities and in Utopian experiments in living communally. Even Time Magazine is advocating such ways of living as a solution…View Post
The following are things I have diagnosed from first-hand observation that go wrong when we try to turn Utopia into a real location. As my ventures involved other intentional communities as well, rather than explain all of their contexts, and to protect anonymity, I refer throughout to several of the communities as “Community X.”
Utopia Is a Dangerous Ideal: We Should Aim for âProtopiaâ
Everybody knows that nobody’s perfect. So why do we still strive for perfection when there could be a better path?
What, then, should replace the idea of utopia? One answer can be found in another neologism – protopia – incremental progress in steps toward improvement, not perfection. As the futurist Kevin Kelly describes his coinage:Protopia is a state that is better today than yesterday, although it might be only a little better. Protopia is much much harder to visualise. Because a protopia contains as many new problems as new benefits, this complex interaction of working and broken is very hard to predict. In my book The Moral Arc (2015), I showed how protopian progress best describes the monumental moral achievements of the past several centuries: the attenuation of war, the abolishment of slavery, the end of torture and the death penalty, universal suffrage, liberal democracy, civil rights and liberties, same-sex marriage and animal rights. These are all examples of protopian progress in the sense that they happened one small step at a time.A protopian future is not only practical, it is realisable.
Now lets take Protopia, add many multiple Super AI enabling programs that can assist people in finding what they need and how to get/make it, and we have a Protopia that is progressing toward Utopia, Add in Space astyeroid mining giving us unlimited resources, and I think we have Utopia for all practical purposes.
Why not?
That's why.
Why the Worst Humans Are Able to Rise to Power | Brittany Hunter
History’s most notorious dictators did not rise to power randomly. And in The Road to Serfdom, Hayek explains why the most despicable people always end up with political power and why, to paraphrase Lord Acton, absolute power always corrupts absolutely.fee.org
"Minimal government" won't stay that way....We're living the proof right now.
The concept of "Utopia" does not require a "state" or a "government". Open your horizons.
Matter of fact the alleged "478" intentional communities cited in the OP are not governments either. Hate to be the one to break this to summa y'all but there's way more to life than government and politics.
You could call it "Scooby-doo" and you're still talking about centralizing power and authority, which always -yes, ALWAYS- attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, who seek out that power as an end unto itself.
So, you are presuming that advocating Utopia/protopia is a plea for more government?I don't. Just stop electing democrats and left wingers.....support the 3 pillars of a free society, Capitalism, the Rule of Law and Democracy, and we will get where you want to go......the problem is left wingers/democrats who keep trying to give more and more power to government.
It's not a "sweeping absolute", it's documented historical fact.Irrelevant semantic parsing and fudging....Orwell would be proud.Why not?....Tremendously centralized power in the hands of The State...The kind of power that attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, like a moth to a flame.So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.
Why Utopian Communities Fail - Areo
Once again we see a resurgence of interest in intentional communities and in Utopian experiments in living communally. Even Time Magazine is advocating such ways of living as a solution…View Post
The following are things I have diagnosed from first-hand observation that go wrong when we try to turn Utopia into a real location. As my ventures involved other intentional communities as well, rather than explain all of their contexts, and to protect anonymity, I refer throughout to several of the communities as “Community X.”
Utopia Is a Dangerous Ideal: We Should Aim for âProtopiaâ
Everybody knows that nobody’s perfect. So why do we still strive for perfection when there could be a better path?
What, then, should replace the idea of utopia? One answer can be found in another neologism – protopia – incremental progress in steps toward improvement, not perfection. As the futurist Kevin Kelly describes his coinage:Protopia is a state that is better today than yesterday, although it might be only a little better. Protopia is much much harder to visualise. Because a protopia contains as many new problems as new benefits, this complex interaction of working and broken is very hard to predict. In my book The Moral Arc (2015), I showed how protopian progress best describes the monumental moral achievements of the past several centuries: the attenuation of war, the abolishment of slavery, the end of torture and the death penalty, universal suffrage, liberal democracy, civil rights and liberties, same-sex marriage and animal rights. These are all examples of protopian progress in the sense that they happened one small step at a time.A protopian future is not only practical, it is realisable.
Now lets take Protopia, add many multiple Super AI enabling programs that can assist people in finding what they need and how to get/make it, and we have a Protopia that is progressing toward Utopia, Add in Space astyeroid mining giving us unlimited resources, and I think we have Utopia for all practical purposes.
Why not?
That's why.
Why the Worst Humans Are Able to Rise to Power | Brittany Hunter
History’s most notorious dictators did not rise to power randomly. And in The Road to Serfdom, Hayek explains why the most despicable people always end up with political power and why, to paraphrase Lord Acton, absolute power always corrupts absolutely.fee.org
"Minimal government" won't stay that way....We're living the proof right now.
The concept of "Utopia" does not require a "state" or a "government". Open your horizons.
Matter of fact the alleged "478" intentional communities cited in the OP are not governments either. Hate to be the one to break this to summa y'all but there's way more to life than government and politics.
You could call it "Scooby-doo" and you're still talking about centralizing power and authority, which always -yes, ALWAYS- attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, who seek out that power as an end unto itself.
Ah, then thanks for validation of Post 2 and everything that was about. Sometimes I hear the objection that that's not a national government.
In the example of which btw there is no such power grabbing. The entity is run by a Minister who acts as a manager and takes on the responsibility as just that -- a responsibility. And he's subject to a democratic vote of the membership. So there goes your sweeping absolute, swept out the window.
It's not a "sweeping absolute", it's documented historical fact.Irrelevant semantic parsing and fudging....Orwell would be proud.Why not?....Tremendously centralized power in the hands of The State...The kind of power that attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, like a moth to a flame.So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.
Why Utopian Communities Fail - Areo
Once again we see a resurgence of interest in intentional communities and in Utopian experiments in living communally. Even Time Magazine is advocating such ways of living as a solution…View Post
The following are things I have diagnosed from first-hand observation that go wrong when we try to turn Utopia into a real location. As my ventures involved other intentional communities as well, rather than explain all of their contexts, and to protect anonymity, I refer throughout to several of the communities as “Community X.”
Utopia Is a Dangerous Ideal: We Should Aim for âProtopiaâ
Everybody knows that nobody’s perfect. So why do we still strive for perfection when there could be a better path?
What, then, should replace the idea of utopia? One answer can be found in another neologism – protopia – incremental progress in steps toward improvement, not perfection. As the futurist Kevin Kelly describes his coinage:Protopia is a state that is better today than yesterday, although it might be only a little better. Protopia is much much harder to visualise. Because a protopia contains as many new problems as new benefits, this complex interaction of working and broken is very hard to predict. In my book The Moral Arc (2015), I showed how protopian progress best describes the monumental moral achievements of the past several centuries: the attenuation of war, the abolishment of slavery, the end of torture and the death penalty, universal suffrage, liberal democracy, civil rights and liberties, same-sex marriage and animal rights. These are all examples of protopian progress in the sense that they happened one small step at a time.A protopian future is not only practical, it is realisable.
Now lets take Protopia, add many multiple Super AI enabling programs that can assist people in finding what they need and how to get/make it, and we have a Protopia that is progressing toward Utopia, Add in Space astyeroid mining giving us unlimited resources, and I think we have Utopia for all practical purposes.
Why not?
That's why.
Why the Worst Humans Are Able to Rise to Power | Brittany Hunter
History’s most notorious dictators did not rise to power randomly. And in The Road to Serfdom, Hayek explains why the most despicable people always end up with political power and why, to paraphrase Lord Acton, absolute power always corrupts absolutely.fee.org
"Minimal government" won't stay that way....We're living the proof right now.
The concept of "Utopia" does not require a "state" or a "government". Open your horizons.
Matter of fact the alleged "478" intentional communities cited in the OP are not governments either. Hate to be the one to break this to summa y'all but there's way more to life than government and politics.
You could call it "Scooby-doo" and you're still talking about centralizing power and authority, which always -yes, ALWAYS- attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, who seek out that power as an end unto itself.
Ah, then thanks for validation of Post 2 and everything that was about. Sometimes I hear the objection that that's not a national government.
In the example of which btw there is no such power grabbing. The entity is run by a Minister who acts as a manager and takes on the responsibility as just that -- a responsibility. And he's subject to a democratic vote of the membership. So there goes your sweeping absolute, swept out the window.
All you're doing is recycling the same stale, ages-old trope that authoritarian central planning hasn't worked because we weren't able to put the "right" autocrat in place....You're also engaging in circular reasoning.
View attachment 329773
Almost by definition, the "utopia" we would be talking about would not be based upon external government, but by self regulation and conscious, voluntary, conscientious citizen participation. It would not be a matter of outward authority, but rather inward.So, you are presuming that advocating Utopia/protopia is a plea for more government?I don't. Just stop electing democrats and left wingers.....support the 3 pillars of a free society, Capitalism, the Rule of Law and Democracy, and we will get where you want to go......the problem is left wingers/democrats who keep trying to give more and more power to government.
That is not the argument I am making.
Yes, having access to strong AI 'providers' can reduce need for government to the most minimal imaginable.Almost by definition, the "utopia" we would be talking about would not be based upon external government, but by self regulation and conscious, voluntary, conscientious citizen participation. It would not be a matter of outward authority, but rather inward.
AI would be useful in establishing legal precedents rapidly, projecting economic trends, searching legislative records, etc.Almost by definition, the "utopia" we would be talking about would not be based upon external government, but by self regulation and conscious, voluntary, conscientious citizen participation. It would not be a matter of outward authority, but rather inward.So, you are presuming that advocating Utopia/protopia is a plea for more government?I don't. Just stop electing democrats and left wingers.....support the 3 pillars of a free society, Capitalism, the Rule of Law and Democracy, and we will get where you want to go......the problem is left wingers/democrats who keep trying to give more and more power to government.
That is not the argument I am making.
Almost by definition, the "utopia" we would be talking about would not be based upon external government, but by self regulation and conscious, voluntary, conscientious citizen participation. It would not be a matter of outward authority, but rather inward.So, you are presuming that advocating Utopia/protopia is a plea for more government?I don't. Just stop electing democrats and left wingers.....support the 3 pillars of a free society, Capitalism, the Rule of Law and Democracy, and we will get where you want to go......the problem is left wingers/democrats who keep trying to give more and more power to government.
That is not the argument I am making.
View attachment 331398
Utopia's are impossible, except perhaps for a brief period of time, there are always others that want what someone else has.
*****SMILE*****
Yeah, I think that is the key point of 'protopianism', we are content to incrementally approach a Utopia while living in what is not a 'perfect' utopian society.The intelligence of humans is capable of enough understanding and inventiveness to build a sustainable, happy, integrated society. What we know about our psychology and our instincts could be used to construct positive outlets and expression for everything essentially human.
So far, society has functioned in rather the opposite direction, maintaining and accentuating weakness. These human frailties are exploited for control and power. If that can be understood by the majority of our species, we might stand a chance of fundamental change.
"Utopia" has to include tolerance for the less than utopian while it refines itself.
View attachment 331398
Utopia's are impossible, except perhaps for a brief period of time, there are always others that want what someone else has.
*****SMILE*****
If our technology has improved/advanced to the point that if you want a thing you can just 3D print it your self or make something that someone else wants and has what you want so you can trade them, then why go the risky route of stealing it or even being covetous?
View attachment 331398
Utopia's are impossible, except perhaps for a brief period of time, there are always others that want what someone else has.
*****SMILE*****
If our technology has improved/advanced to the point that if you want a thing you can just 3D print it your self or make something that someone else wants and has what you want so you can trade them, then why go the risky route of stealing it or even being covetous?
View attachment 331426
What makes you think it's that simple?
*****SMILE*****
