CDZ Are utopias Even Possible? I say yes. Here is how....

[JimBowie1958]

So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.

Why Utopian Communities Fail - Areo

Once again we see a resurgence of interest in intentional communities and in Utopian experiments in living communally. Even Time Magazine is advocating such ways of living as a solution…View Post

areomagazine.com

The following are things I have diagnosed from first-hand observation that go wrong when we try to turn Utopia into a real location. As my ventures involved other intentional communities as well, rather than explain all of their contexts, and to protect anonymity, I refer throughout to several of the communities as “Community X.” ​

Utopia Is a Dangerous Ideal: We Should Aim for âProtopiaâ

Everybody knows that nobody’s perfect. So why do we still strive for perfection when there could be a better path?

getpocket.com

What, then, should replace the idea of utopia? One answer can be found in another neologism – protopia – incremental progress in steps toward improvement, not perfection. As the futurist Kevin Kelly describes his coinage:​

​

Protopia is a state that is better today than yesterday, although it might be only a little better. Protopia is much much harder to visualise. Because a protopia contains as many new problems as new benefits, this complex interaction of working and broken is very hard to predict. ​

In my book The Moral Arc (2015), I showed how protopian progress best describes the monumental moral achievements of the past several centuries: the attenuation of war, the abolishment of slavery, the end of torture and the death penalty, universal suffrage, liberal democracy, civil rights and liberties, same-sex marriage and animal rights. These are all examples of protopian progress in the sense that they happened one small step at a time.​

​

A protopian future is not only practical, it is realisable.​

Now lets take Protopia, add many multiple Super AI enabling programs that can assist people in finding what they need and how to get/make it, and we have a Protopia that is progressing toward Utopia, Add in Space astyeroid mining giving us unlimited resources, and I think we have Utopia for all practical purposes.

Why not?

 

[Pogo]

So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.

Stop right there, because you've set up a strawman that you can't prove. I submit that to the extent successful utopian societies do in fact exist, you and I wouldn't know about them simply because there is no reason we would, those societies being self-contained, self-sufficient and not in any need of tooting their own horns or recruiting anyone.

I'm not a scholar on utopian societies but I do have personal experience with one particular group that runs itself on a biblical "community of goods" principle (in other words Christian Communism), They live in a collective co-owned space with co-owned buildings. materials and resources, work and take meals collectively, and prosper considerably beyond their neighbors who live as individuals. In their entire history they've experienced a total of one murder and two suicides, have never fought in any war or worn any country's uniform, and have been doing this successfully for five hundred years. Is that a utopia? It sure works for them.

So you're left here with the dilemma of proving a negative if you want that for a starting point.
Good luck with that, and keep in mind, "if I never heard of it, it doesn't exist" is not a valid conclusion.

 

[there4eyeM]

All that is necessary is to modify the term until it fits.

 

[Pogo]

So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.

Stop right there, because you've set up a strawman that you can't prove. I submit that to the extent successful utopian societies do in fact exist, you and I wouldn't know about them simply because there is no reason we would, those societies being self-contained, self-sufficient and not in any need of tooting their own horns or recruiting anyone.

I'm not a scholar on utopian societies but I do have personal experience with one particular group that runs itself on a biblical "community of goods" principle (in other words Christian Communism), They live in a collective co-owned space with co-owned buildings. materials and resources, work and take meals collectively, and prosper considerably beyond their neighbors who live as individuals. In their entire history they've experienced a total of one murder and two suicides, have never fought in any war or worn any country's uniform, and have been doing this successfully for five hundred years. Is that a utopia? It sure works for them.

So you're left here with the dilemma of proving a negative if you want that for a starting point.
Good luck with that, and keep in mind, "if I never heard of it, it doesn't exist" is not a valid conclusion.

And by the way you'll need to flesh out this absolute "list" of 478. That's not what your link even says.

 

[there4eyeM]

The present system is utopia for insurance, investment and oil companies.

 

[JimBowie1958]

All that is necessary is to modify the term until it fits.

Well, I am trying to accomodate the fallibility of the human being, so that we can incrementally attain a better life.


But it is like mathematics, and a progression to a limit; eventually you get to a point where there is little difference between the limit and what you have at hand.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Only if you believe Utopia is based on the Law Of Diminishing Returns...

*****CHUCKLE*****

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

They live in a collective co-owned space with co-owned buildings. materials and resources, work and take meals collectively, and prosper considerably beyond their neighbors who live as individuals. In their entire history they've experienced a total of one murder and two suicides, have never fought in any war or worn any country's uniform, and have been doing this successfully for five hundred years. Is that a utopia? It sure works for them

So "diversity" ISNT a strength. Thank you.

 

[Oddball]

So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.

Why Utopian Communities Fail - Areo

Once again we see a resurgence of interest in intentional communities and in Utopian experiments in living communally. Even Time Magazine is advocating such ways of living as a solution…View Post

areomagazine.com

The following are things I have diagnosed from first-hand observation that go wrong when we try to turn Utopia into a real location. As my ventures involved other intentional communities as well, rather than explain all of their contexts, and to protect anonymity, I refer throughout to several of the communities as “Community X.” ​

Utopia Is a Dangerous Ideal: We Should Aim for âProtopiaâ

Everybody knows that nobody’s perfect. So why do we still strive for perfection when there could be a better path?

getpocket.com

What, then, should replace the idea of utopia? One answer can be found in another neologism – protopia – incremental progress in steps toward improvement, not perfection. As the futurist Kevin Kelly describes his coinage:​

​

Protopia is a state that is better today than yesterday, although it might be only a little better. Protopia is much much harder to visualise. Because a protopia contains as many new problems as new benefits, this complex interaction of working and broken is very hard to predict. ​

In my book The Moral Arc (2015), I showed how protopian progress best describes the monumental moral achievements of the past several centuries: the attenuation of war, the abolishment of slavery, the end of torture and the death penalty, universal suffrage, liberal democracy, civil rights and liberties, same-sex marriage and animal rights. These are all examples of protopian progress in the sense that they happened one small step at a time.​

​

A protopian future is not only practical, it is realisable.​

Now lets take Protopia, add many multiple Super AI enabling programs that can assist people in finding what they need and how to get/make it, and we have a Protopia that is progressing toward Utopia, Add in Space astyeroid mining giving us unlimited resources, and I think we have Utopia for all practical purposes.

Why not?

Why not?....Tremendously centralized power in the hands of The State...The kind of power that attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, like a moth to a flame.

That's why.

Why the Worst Humans Are Able to Rise to Power | Brittany Hunter

History’s most notorious dictators did not rise to power randomly. And in The Road to Serfdom, Hayek explains why the most despicable people always end up with political power and why, to paraphrase Lord Acton, absolute power always corrupts absolutely.

fee.org

 

[JimBowie1958]

Why not?....Tremendously centralized power in the hands of The State...The kind of power that attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, like a moth to a flame.
That's why.

but what if we have minimal government (by 21st century standards) combined with a very empowered citizenry who can make 90% of their needs themselves and only need cash for the ocsasional store buy or meds?

 

[Dick Foster]

If you get rid of all those pesky people, it just might work for a change.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Somebody reads or watches too much science fiction.

 

[Oddball]

Why not?....Tremendously centralized power in the hands of The State...The kind of power that attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, like a moth to a flame.
That's why.

but what if we have minimal government (by 21st century standards) combined with a very empowered citizenry who can make 90% of their needs themselves and only need cash for the ocsasional store buy or meds?

"Minimal government" won't stay that way....We're living the proof right now.

 

[JimBowie1958]

"Minimal government" won't stay that way....We're living the proof right now.

With regulations being judged by Super AI, little use for money and quick verification of laws as written, why would any sociopath go into government?

 

[Pogo]

They live in a collective co-owned space with co-owned buildings. materials and resources, work and take meals collectively, and prosper considerably beyond their neighbors who live as individuals. In their entire history they've experienced a total of one murder and two suicides, have never fought in any war or worn any country's uniform, and have been doing this successfully for five hundred years. Is that a utopia? It sure works for them

So "diversity" ISNT a strength. Thank you.

I didn't post anything about "diversity".

Here's the deal -- I'll write the posts with my name on them, you write those with yours.

 

[Pogo]

So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.

Why Utopian Communities Fail - Areo

Once again we see a resurgence of interest in intentional communities and in Utopian experiments in living communally. Even Time Magazine is advocating such ways of living as a solution…View Post

areomagazine.com

The following are things I have diagnosed from first-hand observation that go wrong when we try to turn Utopia into a real location. As my ventures involved other intentional communities as well, rather than explain all of their contexts, and to protect anonymity, I refer throughout to several of the communities as “Community X.” ​

Utopia Is a Dangerous Ideal: We Should Aim for âProtopiaâ

Everybody knows that nobody’s perfect. So why do we still strive for perfection when there could be a better path?

getpocket.com

What, then, should replace the idea of utopia? One answer can be found in another neologism – protopia – incremental progress in steps toward improvement, not perfection. As the futurist Kevin Kelly describes his coinage:​

​

Protopia is a state that is better today than yesterday, although it might be only a little better. Protopia is much much harder to visualise. Because a protopia contains as many new problems as new benefits, this complex interaction of working and broken is very hard to predict. ​

In my book The Moral Arc (2015), I showed how protopian progress best describes the monumental moral achievements of the past several centuries: the attenuation of war, the abolishment of slavery, the end of torture and the death penalty, universal suffrage, liberal democracy, civil rights and liberties, same-sex marriage and animal rights. These are all examples of protopian progress in the sense that they happened one small step at a time.​

​

A protopian future is not only practical, it is realisable.​

Now lets take Protopia, add many multiple Super AI enabling programs that can assist people in finding what they need and how to get/make it, and we have a Protopia that is progressing toward Utopia, Add in Space astyeroid mining giving us unlimited resources, and I think we have Utopia for all practical purposes.

Why not?

Why not?....Tremendously centralized power in the hands of The State...The kind of power that attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, like a moth to a flame.

That's why.

Why the Worst Humans Are Able to Rise to Power | Brittany Hunter

History’s most notorious dictators did not rise to power randomly. And in The Road to Serfdom, Hayek explains why the most despicable people always end up with political power and why, to paraphrase Lord Acton, absolute power always corrupts absolutely.

fee.org

"Minimal government" won't stay that way....We're living the proof right now.

The concept of "Utopia" does not require a "state" or a "government". Open your horizons.

Matter of fact the alleged "478" intentional communities cited in the OP are not governments either. Hate to be the one to break this to summa y'all but there's way more to life than government and politics.

 

[Pogo]

Why not?....Tremendously centralized power in the hands of The State...The kind of power that attracts to it people of the lowest moral character, like a moth to a flame.
That's why.

but what if we have minimal government (by 21st century standards) combined with a very empowered citizenry who can make 90% of their needs themselves and only need cash for the ocsasional store buy or meds?

That's more like it, yes. Now you're thinking like a Liberal.

 

[there4eyeM]

[/QUOTE]
but what if we have minimal government (by 21st century standards) combined with a very empowered citizenry who can make 90% of their needs themselves and only need cash for the ocsasional store buy or meds?
[/QUOTE]
We definitely need this kind of thinking, new approaches, fresh ideas.
What we don't have a better name for than "artificial intelligence" might be a big help in aiding the administration of a lean, effective governing system with minimized errors and faster response to needed changes. Getting away from "cash" is a very positive direction.
It all is a question of being united in the effort. Any system that Americans believe in and put their faith and energy into will work for them.

 

[2aguy]

So far Utopian schemes are 0 success for 478 tries at a perfect society.

Why Utopian Communities Fail - Areo

Once again we see a resurgence of interest in intentional communities and in Utopian experiments in living communally. Even Time Magazine is advocating such ways of living as a solution…View Post

areomagazine.com

The following are things I have diagnosed from first-hand observation that go wrong when we try to turn Utopia into a real location. As my ventures involved other intentional communities as well, rather than explain all of their contexts, and to protect anonymity, I refer throughout to several of the communities as “Community X.” ​

Utopia Is a Dangerous Ideal: We Should Aim for âProtopiaâ

Everybody knows that nobody’s perfect. So why do we still strive for perfection when there could be a better path?

getpocket.com

What, then, should replace the idea of utopia? One answer can be found in another neologism – protopia – incremental progress in steps toward improvement, not perfection. As the futurist Kevin Kelly describes his coinage:​

​

Protopia is a state that is better today than yesterday, although it might be only a little better. Protopia is much much harder to visualise. Because a protopia contains as many new problems as new benefits, this complex interaction of working and broken is very hard to predict. ​

In my book The Moral Arc (2015), I showed how protopian progress best describes the monumental moral achievements of the past several centuries: the attenuation of war, the abolishment of slavery, the end of torture and the death penalty, universal suffrage, liberal democracy, civil rights and liberties, same-sex marriage and animal rights. These are all examples of protopian progress in the sense that they happened one small step at a time.​

​

A protopian future is not only practical, it is realisable.​

Now lets take Protopia, add many multiple Super AI enabling programs that can assist people in finding what they need and how to get/make it, and we have a Protopia that is progressing toward Utopia, Add in Space astyeroid mining giving us unlimited resources, and I think we have Utopia for all practical purposes.

Why not?

Well.....Close to 100 million dead, innocent men, women and children didn't get us there.....so....those who believe in Utopia must think killing more of the right people will do the trick...since they haven't gotten the point yet....

 

[JimBowie1958]

Well.....Close to 100 million dead, innocent men, women and children didn't get us there.....so....those who believe in Utopia must think killing more of the right people will do the trick...since they haven't gotten the point yet....

I am discussing the idea of using a 'protopia' approach of pragmatic results enhanced by strong AI computerized services to connect the points of supple/service to those who need it, etc.

Not really Utopia, though I think we can, by7 this means, approach it to the point of practically acheiving Utopia for the vast majority of us.

Why do you want to live in a jungle?