Anti-American VS Anti-government

[ihopehefails]

Liberals spend their entire time bashing America and spend every ounce of their intellectual energy in finding new ways they can make America look evil by writing a ton of history about things that have happened such as slavery. Now its one thing to acknowledge or point out the evils of slavery but the entire tone of their criticism is never directed at the institution of slavery, the people who participated in it, or even the laws that allowed it to happen but at the identity of American society itself.

The only aspect of America that liberals seem never to criticize is the government or at least the authority it holds over people. Its the reason why tea party protesters were criticized by left-leaning CNN as "anti-government" as if being "anti-government" is a great sin yet the criticism of being "anti-government" never gets the same defense from the left as being anti-American.

Every person has the power to form whatever opinion they have of America they wish even if that opinion is negative but they also have the same power to form an opinion of the general authority of the state as can be formed of American culture, history, and people.

The left does not seem to want to recognize this fact because those that do criticize the general authority of the state are labeled as "anti-government", "militia members", or "right-wing terrorist". The lack of vigorous defense, fear, and disdain for people who criticize the general authority of the state in the same way those that criticize America reflects a thinking on the left that the authority of the state is a complimentary part of human existence in which no person can be complete without.

 

[KittenKoder]

No, neo-libs do, true liberals bash the government.

 

[ihopehefails]

No, neo-libs do, true liberals bash the government.

Neo-lib...

 

[Douger]

Liberals spend their entire time bashing America and spend every ounce of their intellectual energy in finding new ways they can make America look evil by writing a ton of history about things that have happened such as slavery. Now its one thing to acknowledge or point out the evils of slavery but the entire tone of their criticism is never directed at the institution of slavery, the people who participated in it, or even the laws that allowed it to happen but at the identity of American society itself.

The only aspect of America that liberals seem never to criticize is the government or at least the authority it holds over people. Its the reason why tea party protesters were criticized by left-leaning CNN as "anti-government" as if being "anti-government" is a great sin yet the criticism of being "anti-government" never gets the same defense from the left as being anti-American.

Every person has the power to form whatever opinion they have of America they wish even if that opinion is negative but they also have the same power to form an opinion of the general authority of the state as can be formed of American culture, history, and people.

The left does not seem to want to recognize this fact because those that do criticize the general authority of the state are labeled as "anti-government", "militia members", or "right-wing terrorist". The lack of vigorous defense, fear, and disdain for people who criticize the general authority of the state in the same way those that criticize America reflects a thinking on the left that the authority of the state is a complimentary part of human existence in which no person can be complete without.

Anti government and anti Amurkin are the same thing.
I left that shithole because the idiots residing there "permit and elect" the lifestyle they have.
They're too brainwashed, doped up and complacent to realize they have voted against their own best interests for over 50 years.
It's a lost cause.Just as England was and still is.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Being anti-government, especially anti big government is as American as it gets.

This country was founded on principles of small government where the government major role was to protect the rights of the individual to make his own choices; to live as he chose as long as those choices did not infringe on the rights of others.

Big government doesn't allow this. Most of the money I earn is confiscated by state and federal government agencies that use that money to restrict my ability to live my life as I choose.

Now we have government seeking to increase its role by regulation of almost every aspect of life in America. If the government thinks you get paid too much then it mandates you be paid less. If government thinks you're fat, then you pay a tax on soda and junk food. If the government thinks you need to see a doctor, then it forces you to buy insurance under the threat of punitive taxation or imprisonment.

Government serves a purpose and that purpose is not to provide for all people but rather to allow and protect the freedom of people to choose their own way of life.

Those of us that are anti big government realize that America is internally fragile and that our biggest most pressing threat is not from without but from within.

Peggy Noonan: We're Governed by Callous Children - WSJ.com


i do not apologize for being anti big government because that is the mark of an American who believes in freedom and choice.

 

[Diuretic]

And some of you have a go at Karl Marx? Marx wanted humanity to get rid of government but apparently that's a bad thing.

Have a think about who "big government" or "small government" serves.

You might see what Marx meant.

Cui bono.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Government is a necessary evil IMO.

Without some sort of governance with the sole and explicit purpose to protect the rights of the individual, lawlessness will hamper the individual's ability to freely exercise his rights.

In that sense, there is an optimum size of government. Too small and the rights of individuals are not adequately protected. Too large and the government becomes unwieldy and expensive to the point that people are unable to exercise their rights because the financial means to do so are gone and excessive regulation makes it difficult if not impossible to participate in free enterprise.

The notion that all men are equal to exercise their rights as they see fit will result in an equality of results is flawed.

The plain truth is that the assumption that all are free and capable to make their own decisions results in inequality of results. We currently are unable to reconcile that simple fact and are attempting to force an equalization by governmental regulation of results regardless of the choices made.

You invoke Marx and his theory of exploitation fits here. Bbut it is the government that is exploiting us, not some other social class.

According to Marx, a laborer is exploited if he or she performs more labor than necessary to produce the goods society consumes. Well government currently collects (confiscates by threat of force that is) upwards of 50% of the average person's income; more than that spent on food clothing and housing combined. this exploitation by government is done with all the best intentions, the equalization of results being uppermost on the list, but as stated above, forced equity of results can only stem from a corresponding lessening of choice and liberty.

Don't forget that government cannot give to one without taking from another. And the fact that the majority of our income is going to government is the worst kind of exploitation.

 

[Diuretic]

Good points there, I might need to wander off and do some thinking about them. And the point about Marx and exploitation is well made. Too many people bang on about Marx seeing an injustice in capitalism when he didn't. But he did see exploitation and that's very important. Marx wasn't opposed to labour, he said it was what made us human (among other things) but what alienated our humanity was the exploitation of labour. For Marx, I think this is right, the end of alienation (exploitation) was the goal, that and the withering away of the state as an unnecessary part of the superstructure of a society where labour wasn't alienated.

Anyway, good points.

 

[code1211]

Skull Pilot inserted the WSJ article from Peggy Noonan, one of my personal favorites by the by, and this is the concluding paragraph from what she said:

"We are governed at all levels by America's luckiest children, sons and daughters of the abundance, and they call themselves optimists but they're not optimists—they're unimaginative. They don't have faith, they've just never been foreclosed on. They are stupid and they are callous, and they don't mind it when people become disheartened. They don't even notice."

People like Noonan are able to see to the core of a problem. She once again has. If you did not read the link in Skull's post read it here:

Peggy Noonan: We're Governed by Callous Children - WSJ.com

These are scary times folks. Our leaders don't seem to "get it". Don't seem to understand what is happening, how to get through it, how to change it, how to help, when to act act, when to sit down, who has the answers, where to go for help.

They see TEA Party folks and attack the folks as members of a pre-defined enemy rather than wonder why the folks are motivated. They don't need to wonder. They already "know". If a cop on the street bangs a head of a black kid with no evidence because he doesn't need to wonder, he already knows, what do we call this?

These are sacary times. A nebulous menace is recognized in the frnges of our minds and we, as a nation, are coming quickly to a cross roads at which we will give up hope and hand over the reigns to the government or stand up and take control. When the government has complete control and rewards of all kinds are limited at the high end while failure is prevented at the low end, where will the achievers escape to?

In the past, that place was America. Not so much any more. Maybe Dubai?

What will the rest of us do when the achievers have left?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Liberals spend their entire time bashing America and spend every ounce of their intellectual energy in finding new ways they can make America look evil by writing a ton of history about things that have happened such as slavery. Now its one thing to acknowledge or point out the evils of slavery but the entire tone of their criticism is never directed at the institution of slavery, the people who participated in it, or even the laws that allowed it to happen but at the identity of American society itself.

The only aspect of America that liberals seem never to criticize is the government or at least the authority it holds over people. Its the reason why tea party protesters were criticized by left-leaning CNN as "anti-government" as if being "anti-government" is a great sin yet the criticism of being "anti-government" never gets the same defense from the left as being anti-American.

Every person has the power to form whatever opinion they have of America they wish even if that opinion is negative but they also have the same power to form an opinion of the general authority of the state as can be formed of American culture, history, and people.

The left does not seem to want to recognize this fact because those that do criticize the general authority of the state are labeled as "anti-government", "militia members", or "right-wing terrorist". The lack of vigorous defense, fear, and disdain for people who criticize the general authority of the state in the same way those that criticize America reflects a thinking on the left that the authority of the state is a complimentary part of human existence in which no person can be complete without.

It was the government that decided, foolishly, to invade Iraq. Millions of liberals objected to that action. How were they treated by the pro-war right??

 

[Diuretic]

Pissing and moaning because the election of the President didn't go the way some wanted and it's "the end of America".

Give me a bloody break. America won't be "ended" any time soon, tis too much of a robust country.

 

[California Girl]

Pissing and moaning because the election of the President didn't go the way some wanted and it's "the end of America".

Give me a bloody break. America won't be "ended" any time soon, tis too much of a robust country.

I think that depends on your definition of 'America'. I think that it means two different things depending on whether you are left or right. The left see the founding principle as something broken needing to be fixed, and the right see it as something to be returned to.

The right bemoan the ending of America as the ending of the American Dream - the ideals, it's founding principles. The left see it as an opporunity to hand responsibility for their decisions to someone else so when they fail, they won't be responsible.

 

[The T]

Being anti-government, especially anti big government is as American as it gets.

This country was founded on principles of small government where the government major role was to protect the rights of the individual to make his own choices; to live as he chose as long as those choices did not infringe on the rights of others.

Big government doesn't allow this. Most of the money I earn is confiscated by state and federal government agencies that use that money to restrict my ability to live my life as I choose.

Now we have government seeking to increase its role by regulation of almost every aspect of life in America. If the government thinks you get paid too much then it mandates you be paid less. If government thinks you're fat, then you pay a tax on soda and junk food. If the government thinks you need to see a doctor, then it forces you to buy insurance under the threat of punitive taxation or imprisonment.

Government serves a purpose and that purpose is not to provide for all people but rather to allow and protect the freedom of people to choose their own way of life.

Those of us that are anti big government realize that America is internally fragile and that our biggest most pressing threat is not from without but from within.

Peggy Noonan: We're Governed by Callous Children - WSJ.com


i do not apologize for being anti big government because that is the mark of an American who believes in freedom and choice.

And not to mention tthe fundamental groundwork given to us by the Founders. Shame there are so many willing for it's destruction.

 

[Diuretic]

Thanks CG, in all seriousness that puts a couple of things in perspective. I understand it a bit better now. I may disagree with some points but it does frame the ideas somewhat clearer for me.

 

[The T]

Pissing and moaning because the election of the President didn't go the way some wanted and it's "the end of America".

Give me a bloody break. America won't be "ended" any time soon, tis too much of a robust country.

I think that depends on your definition of 'America'. I think that it means two different things depending on whether you are left or right. The left see the founding principle as something broken needing to be fixed, and the right see it as something to be returned to.

The right bemoan the ending of America as the ending of the American Dream - the ideals, it's founding principles. The left see it as an opporunity to hand responsibility for their decisions to someone else so when they fail, they won't be responsible.

Someone grounded in reality. Thanks for this post.

"You must spend some reputation around before giving it to California Girl again"

 

[DiamondDave]

Liberals spend their entire time bashing America and spend every ounce of their intellectual energy in finding new ways they can make America look evil by writing a ton of history about things that have happened such as slavery. Now its one thing to acknowledge or point out the evils of slavery but the entire tone of their criticism is never directed at the institution of slavery, the people who participated in it, or even the laws that allowed it to happen but at the identity of American society itself.

The only aspect of America that liberals seem never to criticize is the government or at least the authority it holds over people. Its the reason why tea party protesters were criticized by left-leaning CNN as "anti-government" as if being "anti-government" is a great sin yet the criticism of being "anti-government" never gets the same defense from the left as being anti-American.

Every person has the power to form whatever opinion they have of America they wish even if that opinion is negative but they also have the same power to form an opinion of the general authority of the state as can be formed of American culture, history, and people.

The left does not seem to want to recognize this fact because those that do criticize the general authority of the state are labeled as "anti-government", "militia members", or "right-wing terrorist". The lack of vigorous defense, fear, and disdain for people who criticize the general authority of the state in the same way those that criticize America reflects a thinking on the left that the authority of the state is a complimentary part of human existence in which no person can be complete without.

It was the government that decided, foolishly, to invade Iraq. Millions of liberals objected to that action. How were they treated by the pro-war right??

Hmmm... legal military action when we attacked Iraq to help Kuwait.... we set up the cease-fire agreement with stipulations of keeping the cease fire, which we had every right to do... Saddam and his government violated that cease-fire repeatedly.... Saddam announced his non-compliance and also announced his intention to support anyone who would try and strike at our country... after the most horrendous terrorist attack on our soil, we went after the terrorists in Afghanistan and then took out Saddam and his rogue ways would would have helped a terrorist if he could, and it was justified under the cease-fire agreement and the subsequent violations....

What we did not do right was put the full cog of the military machine in place.. and some of that had to do with the vocal idiots in the anti-war movement...

Now.. that anti-war movement tried to do anything possible to bash the military actions of the administration... yet national security, war, and subsequent actions needed as a result of military actions and war are some of the most primary charges of our federal government... being against those charges of our government, calling our soldiers murderers, etc, is NOT the same as being against a government that is trying to do things outside the scope of the constitution and charge of government... I.E. what you nutjobs were doing is not even in the same zipcode with conservatives speaking against a government that is trying to gain more power by immersing itself into the private lives and personal responsibility of the nation and use that power for wealth redistribution to give things to non-contributors (because when you give free shit, it is easy to buy those votes) at the expense of contributors....


Neither of these things are truly anti-government.. the whack-job anti-war extremist lefties are more like peacenick, pro-agenda... and the conservatives are anti expanded governmental power and the expansion of that power into personal responsibilities and using the tool of wealth redistribution

 

[PeterS]

Liberals spend their entire time bashing America and spend every ounce of their intellectual energy in finding new ways they can make America look evil by writing a ton of history about things that have happened such as slavery. Now its one thing to acknowledge or point out the evils of slavery but the entire tone of their criticism is never directed at the institution of slavery, the people who participated in it, or even the laws that allowed it to happen but at the identity of American society itself.

What are you talking about? Do you think slavery came about by itself or because it was both tolerated and promoted by society itself? If this acceptance isn't reflective of the of society than what was it?

The only aspect of America that liberals seem never to criticize is the government or at least the authority it holds over people. Its the reason why tea party protesters were criticized by left-leaning CNN as "anti-government" as if being "anti-government" is a great sin yet the criticism of being "anti-government" never gets the same defense from the left as being anti-American.

Every person has the power to form whatever opinion they have of America they wish even if that opinion is negative but they also have the same power to form an opinion of the general authority of the state as can be formed of American culture, history, and people.

The left does not seem to want to recognize this fact because those that do criticize the general authority of the state are labeled as "anti-government", "militia members", or "right-wing terrorist". The lack of vigorous defense, fear, and disdain for people who criticize the general authority of the state in the same way those that criticize America reflects a thinking on the left that the authority of the state is a complimentary part of human existence in which no person can be complete without.

We are a representative republic. What authority are you complaining about?

 

[California Girl]

Thanks CG, in all seriousness that puts a couple of things in perspective. I understand it a bit better now. I may disagree with some points but it does frame the ideas somewhat clearer for me.

You are rare on this board. Others would have looked solely at my swipe at liberals in the end para. You paid attention to the actual point!

To me, the right want to hold fast to the Constitution. That is what I want so that is who I identify with. That is not the GOP. It is the Constitution. The left think we are racist because we do not hold with special treatment. I believe that special treatment brings an 'entitlement' that damages those you seek to help. If we truly treat people as equals, there is no need for special favors. I am not anti black, anti gay, or anti anyone. I treat everyone as equal to me. I would like others to treat me likewise - but it is the liberals who don't.

The problem that I have with the 'liberal' agenda (which to me is not a liberal agenda, but a progressive one) is that they seek to make us into a 'vanilla' country. A country with no special place in the world.

If we hold fast to the Constitution, we are what we were supposed to be. A beacon of democracy and freedom for the world to emulate. We are not pro war, or about expansionism. We are about being an example. The problem is - to some in the world - that ideal is a frightening prospect. Imagine - a truly free land with truly free people. How can other governments control their populations when there is such an example of another way!

In order to achieve this ideal requires hard choices - choices that I sometimes fundamentally oppose. For example, I am anti abortion. However, I believe in freedom so I must allow others to make their own decision about that. I might disagree - and be horrified by their choice but it is their choice to make.

I want to care for the most vulnerable among us but I believe the best way to do that is to educate people, and encourage them to help the less fortunate - not tax them and punish their success to provide hand outs.

Same with healthcare, the system is broken - it needs to be fixed. But the current plan is designed to lead us to single payer and that is fundamentally unconstitutional.

Here endeth today's sermon on being a Constititionalist.

 

[California Girl]

Liberals spend their entire time bashing America and spend every ounce of their intellectual energy in finding new ways they can make America look evil by writing a ton of history about things that have happened such as slavery. Now its one thing to acknowledge or point out the evils of slavery but the entire tone of their criticism is never directed at the institution of slavery, the people who participated in it, or even the laws that allowed it to happen but at the identity of American society itself.

The only aspect of America that liberals seem never to criticize is the government or at least the authority it holds over people. Its the reason why tea party protesters were criticized by left-leaning CNN as "anti-government" as if being "anti-government" is a great sin yet the criticism of being "anti-government" never gets the same defense from the left as being anti-American.

Every person has the power to form whatever opinion they have of America they wish even if that opinion is negative but they also have the same power to form an opinion of the general authority of the state as can be formed of American culture, history, and people.

The left does not seem to want to recognize this fact because those that do criticize the general authority of the state are labeled as "anti-government", "militia members", or "right-wing terrorist". The lack of vigorous defense, fear, and disdain for people who criticize the general authority of the state in the same way those that criticize America reflects a thinking on the left that the authority of the state is a complimentary part of human existence in which no person can be complete without.

Anti government and anti Amurkin are the same thing.
I left that shithole because the idiots residing there "permit and elect" the lifestyle they have.
They're too brainwashed, doped up and complacent to realize they have voted against their own best interests for over 50 years.
It's a lost cause.Just as England was and still is.

Do feel free to renounce your citizenship and never return to our lands again.

 

[PeterS]

Pissing and moaning because the election of the President didn't go the way some wanted and it's "the end of America".

Give me a bloody break. America won't be "ended" any time soon, tis too much of a robust country.

I think that depends on your definition of 'America'. I think that it means two different things depending on whether you are left or right. The left see the founding principle as something broken needing to be fixed, and the right see it as something to be returned to.

What founding principle is the left trying to fix and what founding principle is the right trying to return to?