The ClayTaurus
Senior Member
- Sep 19, 2005
- 7,062
- 334
- 48
Another Example Of How Christians Spread "Hate Speech"
- Thread starter GotZoom
- Start date
dmp
Senior Member
The more I think about it - the more I think it's the resonsibilty of REAL christians to speak out - to be the example for the non-believer. Sort of an antidote for people who claim christ, yet are lovers of their own words, more than God's words.
dmp
Senior Member
lol 
Hagbard Celine
Senior Member
God CAN and WILL make people believe in Him. The time is coming when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. The whole POINT is to learn to love Him BEFORE then, because, after that, you're pretty much out of luck. Not because I say so, but because God says so.
He wants everyone to CHOOSE to love Him, of their own free will. But if people choose not to, they will be made to believe in Him, and it WON'T be pleasant.
That doesn't sound like the "loving God" Christians are always talking about. I can't get past the parts of the story that don't make sense. If God exists, then why is there absolutely no proof that he/she exists? You would say it's a matter of faith. But if God is a loving God, why would he set-up creation so that humans would be destroyed or eternally tormented for not believing in him when he gives no proof of his own existence? That seems very vindictive and cruel. Why would he give us a sensory system and a brain with the power to interpret outside stimulus when he gives no way of determining his existence with those systems and leave our eternal damnation or redemption up to a decision we make not based on anything palpable? Then there's the issue of the devil. God is omnipotent, yet he allows the devil to exist and torment us here on Earth and in eternity--but he's a loving God. The whole good vs. evil duality is too convenient and is inconsistent with the idea of God being supremely omnipotent. If God is love, he would not allow the devil to exist. He would not have ever created Lucifer because he would've known in advance that he would turn on him--which is also the issue I have with "free will." I grew-up being told "God knows every hair on your head." He knows your thoughts, he can see your past and future. So if he can see my future it's pre-determined, which means I can't do anything to change it. Everything I do is pre-determined. That's not free will. That's the illusion of free will. It only seems like I can make my own destiny because I can't see my future, but God can, so he knows what I'm going to do before I do it. Then there's the issue of the Bible--written over two millenia ago by savages. Religion is the only human institution that has not evolved or improved upon itself by adding new discoveries to its canon over time. You can't honestly expect me to believe that the savages of the first century were wiser or more "in touch" with God than religious scholars today. And if Christ is the savior, don't the people who actually saw him perform miracles have an advantage over everyone else who didn't? There are too many inconsistencies for a person like me to leave reasoned thinking behind to make the leap required for faith in God.
Eightball
Senior Member
- Oct 13, 2004
- 1,359
- 253
- 48
Although, I believe that some of these churches go too far when trying to convince the non-Christians that they need Jesus, I see a vast difference between their motives/methods when compared to Islam.
Non Muslims are actually despised, and often killed/tortured, nowadays if they don't bow their knees and convert to Islam.
On the other hand, Christians are labeled "haters" because they believe and communicate to non-Christians that they are going to an eternal hell after physical, earthly death,
*
Being informed that you are going to hell, and that you need to do something about it, doesn't sound like a hateful message. Yes, it's an uncomfortable message, but where's the hate? Sound like most Christian's alleged hate speech is actually a life jacket or life saver being thrown over board to a drowning individual/individuals and is being interpretted otherwise. You'd think that the "your lost" mantra is actually a 50 caliber machine gone being sprayed at these folks.
Whether one wants to believe that their lost or not is up themselves to decide, but to interpret the messenger as a hater, is really a stretch.
Is it interpretted as hate, because it shakes-up one's comfort zone or personal self-made philosophy of life? Is it interpretted as hate, because it demands accountability for one's life's choices?
Is it interpretted as hate, because it is personally embarrassing to be forced to do some introspection of one's motives, and the impacts of those motives on others throughout one's life?
These Christians can be annoying. I agree. Nearly 2,000 years ago when the early Christian church started to grow and spread, these Jesus folks were "annoying" to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Phillipians, Thessolonians, Ephesians and of course the Jews. These annoyed folks were gentiles and Jews. Jesus annoyed many...i.e. the Cross.........His Crucifixion......
If Jesus were to show up on planet earth in 2006, would He approach a religious group from the Middle East, or India, or the Orient, and start telling them they were going to hell. I don't think so, based on the N.Testament writings of His life. I think that He would desire that they come to the realization that He was the only way to God, but His means of doing it would be by initially getting to know them in bonafide friendship and then gradually introducing them to the gospel as they began to respect and trust Him.
Remember how Jesus upset the Jewish religious teachers and scribes of the day by anouncing in front of the multitudes as He was passing through a region, that He was planning to dine at Zacheus's house?
Zacheus's was a rich but despised Jewish tax collector. He infact was up in a tree trying to get a better view of this "Jesus" man who was making headlines in Israel. Out of the "blue", Jesus looks up at Zacheus, ands says, I'm dining with you, at your house.
What an insult this was to the "upity" religious teachers of the time. To dine at this person's house was to dine with a "low life"; a semi-traitor of the Jews who worked for the Romans, and collected taxes from His fellow Jews. This man was not considered religious. This fomented anger and hatred towards Jesus.
Who knows what went on in that house that night as Jesus dined. Maybe there was a lot of drinking, cussing and dancing girls. Maybe there was things going on in Zacheus's house that would have embarrassed most Christians.
Bottom line...........Jesus didn't go to Zacheus's house to judge Zacheus's life.........He went there to save and to heal lives.............He went there with the love of God. A love of lost humanity. Zacheus didn't live by pretense, but just lived. Zacheus knew that his life wasn't right with his creator, and from all accounts was a most humble and gracious host to Jesus. In fact, it is recorded that "salvation" came to the house of Zacheus that day!
I would imagine that Zacheus, though wealthy, probably gave Jesus a sitting place at the head of the table at his home. This was a far stretch from the way Jesus was treated in the homes of most of the Jewish religious leaders of that day.
How do you soften and prepare a heart to receive the "truth" about God? Certainly, not by telling them how bad they are, but by honestly and truthfull communicating to them that you genuinely have love and compassion for them as fellow human beings. You don't see your Chrisitan/self, as better than them, but you do see yourself as being safe and secure in God's hands, yet sadly see others metaphorically looking in from the outside. i.e. not safe and secure for eternity.
True Christian conversion is typified by compassion for the lost; a desire to invite them in from the rain, so-to-speak.
You don't attract bee's without something sweet. Fly swatters might get their attention, but in most cases they will avoid the swatter for safer or friendlier places. Honey does a great job of attracting bee's.
The duty/responsiblity of true converted-to-Jesus folks is to allow the new life Christ to flow through their own lives and be witnessed by the "lost".
*
That church may have meant well, but their methods were shallow, and very insensitive, if they were basically confrontive with the Sikh folks. That's not Christ's life being conveyed so-to-speak through human vessels. That's just plain carnal, and very unbiblical if Jesus is the example to be followed.
Christians can trully pull these kinds of stunts, but it only happens when they are not living a surrendered life toward God. Good old "self" or the "Flesh" is heavily dealt-with by the Apostle Paul in many of his Epistles. The self-life or the "flesh" or carnal life is still alive and kicking in Christians when they refuse to humble themselves before the very one that has saved their life. Even though one is converted, doesn't mean that their lives immediately, reflect the life and love of Jesus. There is still a responsiblity of the Christian to surrender their wants, ways, and desires to a God, on a daily basis throughout their earthly lives. Even the great Apostle, Peter was reprimanded by the Apostle Paul, for being a genuine hypocrite when it came to his/Peter's early dealing with the Jews and gentiles. Remember that this Peter was the one that had denied Jesus not just once but three times, yet he/Peter was a vessel of great power after Jesus's ressurrection during Pentacost. Peter as well as the other Apostles did do wrong things at times, but learned to contritely repent, and except Christ's forgiveness and continued again in their earthly ministry of the gospel.
*
On a similar note: That alleged Christian church that protested at G.I. funerals, also didn't represent true Christian love, and the true life of Christ being conveyed to mankind.
If Jesus had been at any of those funerals, He would have been embracing the loved-ones of the deceased soldier and crying right along with them.
*
Love, melts nearly all hardened walls.......Love, also must be assertive/tough, and convey strength and steadfastness too in the face of opposition/defiance.
*
As Paul said so elquently, "love", must undergird every thing that exudes from a Christian. Without "love", Paul said, we, Christians are like empty, gonging bells. In other words, we portray a shallow personality/existence to others and actually are very annoying. We lack total depth of personality, and respect towards others, and deservedly-so.
Non Muslims are actually despised, and often killed/tortured, nowadays if they don't bow their knees and convert to Islam.
On the other hand, Christians are labeled "haters" because they believe and communicate to non-Christians that they are going to an eternal hell after physical, earthly death,
*
Being informed that you are going to hell, and that you need to do something about it, doesn't sound like a hateful message. Yes, it's an uncomfortable message, but where's the hate? Sound like most Christian's alleged hate speech is actually a life jacket or life saver being thrown over board to a drowning individual/individuals and is being interpretted otherwise. You'd think that the "your lost" mantra is actually a 50 caliber machine gone being sprayed at these folks.
Whether one wants to believe that their lost or not is up themselves to decide, but to interpret the messenger as a hater, is really a stretch.
Is it interpretted as hate, because it shakes-up one's comfort zone or personal self-made philosophy of life? Is it interpretted as hate, because it demands accountability for one's life's choices?
Is it interpretted as hate, because it is personally embarrassing to be forced to do some introspection of one's motives, and the impacts of those motives on others throughout one's life?
These Christians can be annoying. I agree. Nearly 2,000 years ago when the early Christian church started to grow and spread, these Jesus folks were "annoying" to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Phillipians, Thessolonians, Ephesians and of course the Jews. These annoyed folks were gentiles and Jews. Jesus annoyed many...i.e. the Cross.........His Crucifixion......
If Jesus were to show up on planet earth in 2006, would He approach a religious group from the Middle East, or India, or the Orient, and start telling them they were going to hell. I don't think so, based on the N.Testament writings of His life. I think that He would desire that they come to the realization that He was the only way to God, but His means of doing it would be by initially getting to know them in bonafide friendship and then gradually introducing them to the gospel as they began to respect and trust Him.
Remember how Jesus upset the Jewish religious teachers and scribes of the day by anouncing in front of the multitudes as He was passing through a region, that He was planning to dine at Zacheus's house?
Zacheus's was a rich but despised Jewish tax collector. He infact was up in a tree trying to get a better view of this "Jesus" man who was making headlines in Israel. Out of the "blue", Jesus looks up at Zacheus, ands says, I'm dining with you, at your house.
What an insult this was to the "upity" religious teachers of the time. To dine at this person's house was to dine with a "low life"; a semi-traitor of the Jews who worked for the Romans, and collected taxes from His fellow Jews. This man was not considered religious. This fomented anger and hatred towards Jesus.
Who knows what went on in that house that night as Jesus dined. Maybe there was a lot of drinking, cussing and dancing girls. Maybe there was things going on in Zacheus's house that would have embarrassed most Christians.
Bottom line...........Jesus didn't go to Zacheus's house to judge Zacheus's life.........He went there to save and to heal lives.............He went there with the love of God. A love of lost humanity. Zacheus didn't live by pretense, but just lived. Zacheus knew that his life wasn't right with his creator, and from all accounts was a most humble and gracious host to Jesus. In fact, it is recorded that "salvation" came to the house of Zacheus that day!
I would imagine that Zacheus, though wealthy, probably gave Jesus a sitting place at the head of the table at his home. This was a far stretch from the way Jesus was treated in the homes of most of the Jewish religious leaders of that day.
How do you soften and prepare a heart to receive the "truth" about God? Certainly, not by telling them how bad they are, but by honestly and truthfull communicating to them that you genuinely have love and compassion for them as fellow human beings. You don't see your Chrisitan/self, as better than them, but you do see yourself as being safe and secure in God's hands, yet sadly see others metaphorically looking in from the outside. i.e. not safe and secure for eternity.
True Christian conversion is typified by compassion for the lost; a desire to invite them in from the rain, so-to-speak.
You don't attract bee's without something sweet. Fly swatters might get their attention, but in most cases they will avoid the swatter for safer or friendlier places. Honey does a great job of attracting bee's.
The duty/responsiblity of true converted-to-Jesus folks is to allow the new life Christ to flow through their own lives and be witnessed by the "lost".
*
That church may have meant well, but their methods were shallow, and very insensitive, if they were basically confrontive with the Sikh folks. That's not Christ's life being conveyed so-to-speak through human vessels. That's just plain carnal, and very unbiblical if Jesus is the example to be followed.
Christians can trully pull these kinds of stunts, but it only happens when they are not living a surrendered life toward God. Good old "self" or the "Flesh" is heavily dealt-with by the Apostle Paul in many of his Epistles. The self-life or the "flesh" or carnal life is still alive and kicking in Christians when they refuse to humble themselves before the very one that has saved their life. Even though one is converted, doesn't mean that their lives immediately, reflect the life and love of Jesus. There is still a responsiblity of the Christian to surrender their wants, ways, and desires to a God, on a daily basis throughout their earthly lives. Even the great Apostle, Peter was reprimanded by the Apostle Paul, for being a genuine hypocrite when it came to his/Peter's early dealing with the Jews and gentiles. Remember that this Peter was the one that had denied Jesus not just once but three times, yet he/Peter was a vessel of great power after Jesus's ressurrection during Pentacost. Peter as well as the other Apostles did do wrong things at times, but learned to contritely repent, and except Christ's forgiveness and continued again in their earthly ministry of the gospel.
*
On a similar note: That alleged Christian church that protested at G.I. funerals, also didn't represent true Christian love, and the true life of Christ being conveyed to mankind.
If Jesus had been at any of those funerals, He would have been embracing the loved-ones of the deceased soldier and crying right along with them.
*
Love, melts nearly all hardened walls.......Love, also must be assertive/tough, and convey strength and steadfastness too in the face of opposition/defiance.
*
As Paul said so elquently, "love", must undergird every thing that exudes from a Christian. Without "love", Paul said, we, Christians are like empty, gonging bells. In other words, we portray a shallow personality/existence to others and actually are very annoying. We lack total depth of personality, and respect towards others, and deservedly-so.
dmp
Senior Member
You are right - it IS a matter of faith - but moreso, it's a matter of LOVE. Nobody can be FORCED or SCARED into loving somebody. Love is a CHOICE.
VERY true.
Twood only be cruel if God didn't provide an escape. He did. It's up to US to believe it.
A relationship with God IS Palpable. One can 'FEEL' Him. One can 'SEE' Him. One can "HEAR" Him. Building a relationship with your creator is a journey. You start by accepting on Faith that Christ HAS, by substitutional attonement, paid the price for OUR sin. From there, our hearts and minds begin to open up to His presence in our lives.
Goes back to His Love. His Holiness. His desire for Love from us. Where there is no choice, there is no love. God 'forcing' himself upon us would be akin to spiritual rape.
The reason Christianity is TRUE - the most fundamental reason why I believe Christ - is because EVERY other major religion on the world is spelled "DO". Followers must 'DO' something to attain salvation. They must EARN it, or display qualities enough to be rewarded with Heaven.
Christianity is spelled "DONE." All we're asked is to simply 'believe'. One very Godly man in the bible said to Jesus - "Lord I believe - now Help my unbelief."
That's acceptable, to start.
See above.
You confuse the knowledge of the future with commanding the future. Knowing what WILL happen does not mean He MAKES it Happen. In terms of our eternal 'lives' - that's up to us.
People did SEE those, and yet they didn't believe. That's why I wrote elsehwere "God Himself could descend from heaven, and people, being idiots, would still choose not to believe."
dmp
Senior Member
Dr Grump
Platinum Member
But if people choose not to, they will be made to believe in Him, and it WON'T be pleasant.
Why? Doesn't sound like a very pleasant being...
Depends on what you will accept as "proof." His creation is proof, from the vastness of the universe, to the intricacy of a cell. He is evident in humans, images and children of our Creator. Even if physical development could be explained away by natural causes, people still have the ability to reason, to create, to choose. How can these abstract things have come from a concoction of atoms?
Another evidence for the existence of God is the human conscience. Every person has a sense of right and wrong instilled in them, and it functions even when "right" goes against "survival instincts."
God is NOT cruel, but He IS just. He set up creation so that humans could have a CHOICE about whether or not to love Him & obey Him. In order to encourage us to choose Him, there must be consequences for NOT choosing Him.
Palpable? Do you understand the concept of "freedom"? Do you understand what "nobility" is? I'm sure you do, but can you TOUCH "nobility"? Can you hear "freedom"? Of course not! We must rely on indirect "input" to understand these things, rather than our five senses. The same goes for communication with God.
He knew in advance, but He still gave the gift of life, the gift of choice. God didn't HAVE to create anything; He created for His own purposes. This is something Americans have a very hard time accepting. We were not created for our OWN happiness; we were created for GOD'S happiness. In His goodness and love, He gives us (and presumably the angels) the choice of whether to love Him back or not. Some of His creatures chose "not."
Free will does not mean we can choose EVERYTHING or ANYTHING we want to do. It means we can freely choose whether or not we want to love & obey God. Some things in our lives ARE beyond our control, no doubt about it. But God gives us the choice in our ultimate fate, and He gives us AMAZING peace and love to endure everything we must while we are here in this life! No matter what we are going through, God is holding us, loving us, bringing inexplicable comfort to even the most horrendous situations!
How do we know they were savages? THere is evidence to support the idea of high intelligence in people groups... the pyramids, tools, art... all without the benefit of the knowledge of previous generations. Standing on the shoulders of giants, we do look tall.
My opinion is that they probably were. 1) Mutations are accumulating in the genome, affecting all parts of the body, including the brain. Most mutations are damaging. Therefore, I would expect that a people group with fewer accumulated mutations would tend to be more intelligent than subsequent generations.
As for religion not evolving, why do you say that? There are many "new" faiths and belief systems. But, the basic human NEED for a relationship with God has never changed; that is true.
People can be amazingly tenacious to their beliefs. All sensory information must be interpreted. Perhaps some of those who saw the miracles thought they were tricks or scams. Perhaps they chose to believe that Jesus was evil. Just seeing miracles doesn't necessarily lead one to belief, unfortunately.
- Moderator
- #30
I dont know if that's always true. Ive seen alot of so called Christian "Protestors" who show absolutely no love whatsoever for people. Im n ot saying these people didnt. and I completely agree that its not hate speech, but i dont know that its always out of love. There are alot of hateful Christians out there for some reason.
- Moderator
- #31
why dont you ask Him? its not like He is hiding or anything
dmp
Senior Member
They aren't Christians. They may be Church-Goers...but they know Nothing of Christ.
Dr Grump
Platinum Member
How does one talk to something that doesn't exist??
- Moderator
- #34
They aren't Christians. They may be Church-Goers...but they know Nothing of Christ.
They know enough to go to Church to worship him. Whether they are good Christians or not is another story.
I dont think you can disclude them just because they dont act like they are supposed to. Christ said the tares would grow with the wheat until the end. As far as im concerned they are just as Christian as anyone else, they are just scum for not following it.
dmp
Senior Member
No such thing is a 'good' christian or a 'bad' christian. One who follows (not just acknowledges) christ, is a Christian and largely incapable of the kinds of hurt people cause in His name.
- Moderator
- #36
You are begging the question. You assume you can't talk with Him, because you start with the assumption that He doesnt exist. The problem is with that assumption you can never find out whether He actually does exist.
You can only learn the truth by experimenting on the word and finding out for yourself. I had no clue whether there was a God when i started asking Him. I just assumed that if He does exist then He has a way to communicate with me. I had no clue how He would or how long it would take. But He has. I have no doubt He exists anymore because He does answer prayers.
But He isnt going to force you to pay attention to Him. He is always inviting us to come to Him but He gives us our agency. He isnt going to force us to have a relationship with Him.
You you are going to ignore Him and want nothing to do with Him He is going to respect your wishes as much as He can. But its not going to change the fact that He is there and does answer prayers.
Dr Grump
Platinum Member
Interesting point. Thing is, I used to believe in a god, then I realised I only did because I'd been taught of the consequences if I didn't believe. When I thoguht about it rationally, I couldn't see how a god could exist, thus my current state of thought on the subject.
I tried talking to him when I believed. Nada....:huh:
That's a whole other subject. Dunno why any being wants us to pray and love him/her unconditionally. There is no point IMO, other than satiating an ego - either the god's or our own...very strange concept (logically speaking)...
And there lies the rub....the above is true ONLY if you believe...for us heathens, he/she is not there
dmp
Senior Member
Dr Grump
Platinum Member
- Moderator
- #40
No, He is there, period. Whether you belive it or not is irrelevant. You can't make God cease to exist because you dont believe in him any more than you can make President Bush not be President simply because you dont believe he is
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