Andy Atheist On Human Free Will.

[JAG]

Andy Atheist Wrote:
"If God is all knowing (Omniscient} then it logically
follows that if God knows today, what choices I will
make tomorrow, then I have no choice tomorrow
to do anything other than to make the choice that God
knew I would choose."___Andy Atheist


JAG Replies:
Yes it is true that since God is Omniscient and knows
the future and knows what you will choose to do, then
you will do that which He knows that you will do.

But , , ,
that does NOT mean that you did not freely choose
to do that which He knew you would do.

Here we need to understand what Free Will means.

Free Will means there is no Force external to you, that
forces you to do, that which you do not want to do.

God merely knowing what you will choose to do, does
not mean that God forces you to do, that which He knew
you would choose to do. Nor does it mean that you did
not want to do it. You did want to do it. Your Free Will
freely chose to do whatever you did.

It Is Vital To Remember That , , ,
Free Will means that there is no Force outside of you,
that is forcing or coercing you into choosing to do that
which is against what you want to do. The fact that God
knows what you will choose to do, does not mean that
there was any Force-Outside-Of-You coercing you to
do that which God knew you would choose to do.

__________

Secular Laws , , ,
Free Will is a secular truth, and not only a religious truth;
How so?
Because all of Civilized Humanity recognizes the legitimacy
of the institution of Free Will and has legislated human
Free Will into law. the Law says humans are responsible
for their choices. The Law recognizes the legitimacy of
the Institution of human Free Will.

Keeping in mind what Andy Atheist said, read this
dialogue between Henry and The Judge.

Henry: Your Honor, yes it is true that I robbed that bank
and in the process I killed three bank tellers, but Your
Honor, God is Omniscient and God knew I would rob
the bank and kill those three tellers, so Your Honor its
not my fault that I committed this crime, I merely did
what God knew I would do.

The Judge: Oh okay, Henry. I understand. Thanks for
explaining. Case dismissed.

So?
So humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
So all this talk about Free Will NOT being a true, valid,
and legitimate explanation of why humans are personally
responsible before God for the evil choices they make
is irrational and belongs in the basement below the
basement where unproductive totally-useless abstract
philosophical academic speculations blathers on and on
and on.
Nothing said by humans can invalidate this truth: Humans
Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
_________

Many Atheists blame God , , ,
However my view is that the air-tight solid truth
demonstrated in the conversation between
Henry and The Judge, will be dismissed as
nonsense by most atheists and the irrational
assault on the institution of human Free Will
as a legitimate and valid explanation of human
evil and sin will continue as if Henry and
The Judge had never been presented. Why?
Because atheists who remain atheists are
not going to ever give up blaming God for
the evil in the world -- and thereby excusing
themselves for their own Free Will evil
choices to do evil.

What does Henry and The Judge demonstrate?
That Humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will
Choices. -- and to say otherwise reduces to
absurd-nonsense.

The Coming Judgment , , ,
One last point: Not only does all of Civilized Law
recognize Free Will as a legitimate explanation for
human evil choices, but so does God and the Bible
and God's laws regarding Free Will will be applied
at The Judgment just as man's laws regarding Free Will
are applied in Human Courts. What does that mean?
It means that human Free Will choices will determine
human Eternal destiny. John 3:16 asks humans to make
a choice. Joshua 24:15 asks humans to make a choice.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
then choose for yourselves this day whom you will
serve, whether the gods your ancestors served
beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites,
in whose land you are living. But as for me and my
household, we will serve the LORD." ___Joshua 24:15

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

I think you have summarized well. Foreknowledge does not equal a lack of free will.
Atheists are desperate people and frequently dishonest.

 

[Augustine_]

Andy Atheist Wrote:
"If God is all knowing (Omniscient} then it logically
follows that if God knows today, what choices I will
make tomorrow, then I have no choice tomorrow
to do anything other than to make the choice that God
knew I would choose."___Andy Atheist


JAG Replies:
Yes it is true that since God is Omniscient and knows
the future and knows what you will choose to do, then
you will do that which He knows that you will do.

But , , ,
that does NOT mean that you did not freely choose
to do that which He knew you would do.

Here we need to understand what Free Will means.

Free Will means there is no Force external to you, that
forces you to do, that which you do not want to do.

God merely knowing what you will choose to do, does
not mean that God forces you to do, that which He knew
you would choose to do. Nor does it mean that you did
not want to do it. You did want to do it. Your Free Will
freely chose to do whatever you did.

It Is Vital To Remember That , , ,
Free Will means that there is no Force outside of you,
that is forcing or coercing you into choosing to do that
which is against what you want to do. The fact that God
knows what you will choose to do, does not mean that
there was any Force-Outside-Of-You coercing you to
do that which God knew you would choose to do.

__________

Secular Laws , , ,
Free Will is a secular truth, and not only a religious truth;
How so?
Because all of Civilized Humanity recognizes the legitimacy
of the institution of Free Will and has legislated human
Free Will into law. the Law says humans are responsible
for their choices. The Law recognizes the legitimacy of
the Institution of human Free Will.

Keeping in mind what Andy Atheist said, read this
dialogue between Henry and The Judge.

Henry: Your Honor, yes it is true that I robbed that bank
and in the process I killed three bank tellers, but Your
Honor, God is Omniscient and God knew I would rob
the bank and kill those three tellers, so Your Honor its
not my fault that I committed this crime, I merely did
what God knew I would do.

The Judge: Oh okay, Henry. I understand. Thanks for
explaining. Case dismissed.

So?
So humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
So all this talk about Free Will NOT being a true, valid,
and legitimate explanation of why humans are personally
responsible before God for the evil choices they make
is irrational and belongs in the basement below the
basement where unproductive totally-useless abstract
philosophical academic speculations blathers on and on
and on.
Nothing said by humans can invalidate this truth: Humans
Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
_________

Many Atheists blame God , , ,
However my view is that the air-tight solid truth
demonstrated in the conversation between
Henry and The Judge, will be dismissed as
nonsense by most atheists and the irrational
assault on the institution of human Free Will
as a legitimate and valid explanation of human
evil and sin will continue as if Henry and
The Judge had never been presented. Why?
Because atheists who remain atheists are
not going to ever give up blaming God for
the evil in the world -- and thereby excusing
themselves for their own Free Will evil
choices to do evil.

What does Henry and The Judge demonstrate?
That Humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will
Choices. -- and to say otherwise reduces to
absurd-nonsense.

The Coming Judgment , , ,
One last point: Not only does all of Civilized Law
recognize Free Will as a legitimate explanation for
human evil choices, but so does God and the Bible
and God's laws regarding Free Will will be applied
at The Judgment just as man's laws regarding Free Will
are applied in Human Courts. What does that mean?
It means that human Free Will choices will determine
human Eternal destiny. John 3:16 asks humans to make
a choice. Joshua 24:15 asks humans to make a choice.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
then choose for yourselves this day whom you will
serve, whether the gods your ancestors served
beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites,
in whose land you are living. But as for me and my
household, we will serve the LORD." ___Joshua 24:15

Which god?

 

[anynameyouwish]

Andy Atheist Wrote:
"If God is all knowing (Omniscient} then it logically
follows that if God knows today, what choices I will
make tomorrow, then I have no choice tomorrow
to do anything other than to make the choice that God
knew I would choose."___Andy Atheist


JAG Replies:
Yes it is true that since God is Omniscient and knows
the future and knows what you will choose to do, then
you will do that which He knows that you will do.

But , , ,
that does NOT mean that you did not freely choose
to do that which He knew you would do.

Here we need to understand what Free Will means.

Free Will means there is no Force external to you, that
forces you to do, that which you do not want to do.

God merely knowing what you will choose to do, does
not mean that God forces you to do, that which He knew
you would choose to do. Nor does it mean that you did
not want to do it. You did want to do it. Your Free Will
freely chose to do whatever you did.

It Is Vital To Remember That , , ,
Free Will means that there is no Force outside of you,
that is forcing or coercing you into choosing to do that
which is against what you want to do. The fact that God
knows what you will choose to do, does not mean that
there was any Force-Outside-Of-You coercing you to
do that which God knew you would choose to do.

__________

Secular Laws , , ,
Free Will is a secular truth, and not only a religious truth;
How so?
Because all of Civilized Humanity recognizes the legitimacy
of the institution of Free Will and has legislated human
Free Will into law. the Law says humans are responsible
for their choices. The Law recognizes the legitimacy of
the Institution of human Free Will.

Keeping in mind what Andy Atheist said, read this
dialogue between Henry and The Judge.

Henry: Your Honor, yes it is true that I robbed that bank
and in the process I killed three bank tellers, but Your
Honor, God is Omniscient and God knew I would rob
the bank and kill those three tellers, so Your Honor its
not my fault that I committed this crime, I merely did
what God knew I would do.

The Judge: Oh okay, Henry. I understand. Thanks for
explaining. Case dismissed.

So?
So humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
So all this talk about Free Will NOT being a true, valid,
and legitimate explanation of why humans are personally
responsible before God for the evil choices they make
is irrational and belongs in the basement below the
basement where unproductive totally-useless abstract
philosophical academic speculations blathers on and on
and on.
Nothing said by humans can invalidate this truth: Humans
Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
_________

Many Atheists blame God , , ,
However my view is that the air-tight solid truth
demonstrated in the conversation between
Henry and The Judge, will be dismissed as
nonsense by most atheists and the irrational
assault on the institution of human Free Will
as a legitimate and valid explanation of human
evil and sin will continue as if Henry and
The Judge had never been presented. Why?
Because atheists who remain atheists are
not going to ever give up blaming God for
the evil in the world -- and thereby excusing
themselves for their own Free Will evil
choices to do evil.

What does Henry and The Judge demonstrate?
That Humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will
Choices. -- and to say otherwise reduces to
absurd-nonsense.

The Coming Judgment , , ,
One last point: Not only does all of Civilized Law
recognize Free Will as a legitimate explanation for
human evil choices, but so does God and the Bible
and God's laws regarding Free Will will be applied
at The Judgment just as man's laws regarding Free Will
are applied in Human Courts. What does that mean?
It means that human Free Will choices will determine
human Eternal destiny. John 3:16 asks humans to make
a choice. Joshua 24:15 asks humans to make a choice.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
then choose for yourselves this day whom you will
serve, whether the gods your ancestors served
beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites,
in whose land you are living. But as for me and my
household, we will serve the LORD." ___Joshua 24:15

is your first loyalty to your god?
or your country?

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

Which god?

There is only one God presumably but that's not the point. You are trying to obfuscate and cloud up the issue.

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

is your first loyalty to your god?
or your country?

Same deal. Stop derailing the issue.

 

[Augustine_]

There is only one God presumably

Well that's an opinion based on zero evidence. This issue is already obfuscated and cloudy, because the OP cannot possibly know a single thing about what his god is thinking.

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

Well that's an opinion based on zero evidence. This issue is already obfuscated and cloudy, because the OP cannot possibly know a single thing about what his god is thinking.

Then it seems you object based on zero evidence yourself, using your very own reasoning.

The issue is not what God thinks but whether human beings are capable of free will or not.

Can you find any evidence at all that my thoughts, and yours or anyone's (for that matter) are not inner directed?

I can't. No one can.

 

[Augustine_]

Can you find any evidence at all that my thoughts, and yours or anyone's (for that matter) are not inner directed?

I can't. No one can.

Same as how there's no evidence for a God. Pretty pointless thread, if you think about it.

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

Can you find any evidence at all that my thoughts, and yours or anyone's (for that matter) are not inner directed?

I can't. No one can.

Same as how there's no evidence for a God. Pretty pointless thread, if you think about it.

Not exactly. There is lots of empirical evidence for God and I note you didn't try to make the case against
free will.
As noted thinkers and philosophers have noted for thousands of years the vast endless universe conforms
to certain laws and operating principles which implies some thing or being (God) is the only
possible explanation for it.

These principles do not run on chance or accident. It's not possible that they could.

No one can make you believe if you want to foolishly ignore all the evidence. It's your loss.

 

[Augustine_]

Not exactly. There is lots of empirical evidence for God

No there isn't. If there were it would have been provided at some point in the last few thousand years.

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

No there isn't.

Your refusal to see or understand does not cancel out the observations of countless
brilliant men and women and there is yet one more principle you don't seem to understand at all.

If there were it would have been provided at some point in the last few thousand years.

And again, if you won't look at something that thing is not negated or ceases to exist.

Your amazing ignorance is incredibly egocentric.

 

[Meriweather]

Andy Atheist Wrote:
"If God is all knowing (Omniscient} then it logically
follows that if God knows today, what choices I will
make tomorrow, then I have no choice tomorrow
to do anything other than to make the choice that God
knew I would choose."___Andy Atheist

There is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea that God knows what each individual will do tomorrow. Omniscient means knowing everything there is to know as soon as it is knowable. The Bible tells us that God does know His own future plans and that He will bring His plans to fruition. Since God does know everything that is knowable today, I haven't a doubt He has great insights as to what may take place tomorrow, but probably not down to what we humans will be doing in every future second of our life. Andy Atheist is arguing a fallacy.

 

[JAG]

There is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea that God knows what each individual will do tomorrow. Omniscient means knowing everything there is to know as soon as it is knowable. The Bible tells us that God does know His own future plans and that He will bring His plans to fruition. Since God does know everything that is knowable today, I haven't a doubt He has great insights as to what may take place tomorrow, but probably not down to what we humans will be doing in every future second of our life. Andy Atheist is arguing a fallacy.

"There is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea that God knows what each
individual will do tomorrow. Omniscient means knowing everything there is to
know as soon as it is knowable. The Bible tells us that God does know His own
future plans and that He will bring His plans to fruition. Since God does know
everything that is knowable today, I haven't a doubt He has great insights as
to what may take place tomorrow, but probably not down to what we humans
will be doing in every future second of our life. Andy Atheist is arguing a
fallacy."___Meriweather

You might be correct. I have heard that argued before. I was always taught that
Omniscience means God can see the future. But maybe He only knows what is
knowable today as you said -- but I don't know that is true? I am not sure we
can know in this life. This may be one of those "secret things" that belong to
God as mentioned in Deuteronomy 29:29

I do not think there is a Bible verse that specifically says "God sees the future."
I do think there are many Bible verses that say things that have caused the vast
majority of Christian theologians to draw the "inference" that God does see the
future. My view is they could be right or they could be wrong. I don't think we can
know for certain.

Meriweather, thanks for your comments, much appreciated.




`

 

[JAG]

I think you have summarized well. Foreknowledge does not equal a lack of free will.
Atheists are desperate people and frequently dishonest.

"I think you have summarized well. Foreknowledge does not equal a lack of free will.
Atheists are desperate people and frequently dishonest."___Eric Arthhur Blair

Thanks Eric.
And thanks for reading my Opening Post.

 

[JAG]

Can you find any evidence at all that my thoughts, and yours or anyone's (for that matter) are not inner directed?

I can't. No one can.

Same as how there's no evidence for a God. Pretty pointless thread, if you think about it.

"Same as how there's no evidence for a God. Pretty pointless thread, if you think about it."___Augustine

There is a lot of evidence supporting the existence of God.
The evidence has not convinced you.
But that does not mean there is no evidence.
What does it mean?
It means that the evidence has not convinced you. That's all it mean.
Here at this link is Peter Kreeft's 20 Arguments For The Existence Of God.
These arguments are concise and easy to read.
These 20 arguments are not some long drawn out screed.

Twenty Arguments God's Existence by Peter Kreeft (& Ronald K. Tacelli)

www.peterkreeft.com

 

[JAG]

Which god?

"Which god?"___Augustine

The issue is Free Will.
The point I demonstrated with the dialogue
between Henry and The Judge, stands true.

JAG Wrote:
Henry: Your Honor, yes it is true that I robbed that bank
and in the process I killed three bank tellers, but Your
Honor, God is Omniscient and God knew I would rob
the bank and kill those three tellers, so Your Honor its
not my fault that I committed this crime, I merely did
what God knew I would do.

The Judge: Oh okay, Henry. I understand. Thanks for
explaining. Case dismissed.

So?
So humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
So all this talk about Free Will NOT being a true, valid,
and legitimate explanation of why humans are personally
responsible before God for the evil choices they make
is irrational and belongs in the basement below the
basement where unproductive totally-useless abstract
philosophical academic speculations blathers on and on
and on.
Nothing said by humans can invalidate this truth: Humans
Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices."___JAG
End quote.

____________

Some humans don't like the doctrine of Free Will because
of the following:

JAG Wrote:
The Coming Judgment , , ,
One last point: Not only does all of Civilized Law
recognize Free Will as a legitimate explanation for
human evil choices, but so does God and the Bible
and God's laws regarding Free Will will be applied
at The Judgment just as man's laws regarding Free Will
are applied in Human Courts. What does that mean?
It means that human Free Will choices will determine
human Eternal destiny. John 3:16 asks humans to make
a choice. Joshua 24:15 asks humans to make a choice."___JAG




`

 

[ding]

Andy Atheist Wrote:
"If God is all knowing (Omniscient} then it logically
follows that if God knows today, what choices I will
make tomorrow, then I have no choice tomorrow
to do anything other than to make the choice that God
knew I would choose."___Andy Atheist


JAG Replies:
Yes it is true that since God is Omniscient and knows
the future and knows what you will choose to do, then
you will do that which He knows that you will do.

But , , ,
that does NOT mean that you did not freely choose
to do that which He knew you would do.

Here we need to understand what Free Will means.

Free Will means there is no Force external to you, that
forces you to do, that which you do not want to do.

God merely knowing what you will choose to do, does
not mean that God forces you to do, that which He knew
you would choose to do. Nor does it mean that you did
not want to do it. You did want to do it. Your Free Will
freely chose to do whatever you did.

It Is Vital To Remember That , , ,
Free Will means that there is no Force outside of you,
that is forcing or coercing you into choosing to do that
which is against what you want to do. The fact that God
knows what you will choose to do, does not mean that
there was any Force-Outside-Of-You coercing you to
do that which God knew you would choose to do.

__________

Secular Laws , , ,
Free Will is a secular truth, and not only a religious truth;
How so?
Because all of Civilized Humanity recognizes the legitimacy
of the institution of Free Will and has legislated human
Free Will into law. the Law says humans are responsible
for their choices. The Law recognizes the legitimacy of
the Institution of human Free Will.

Keeping in mind what Andy Atheist said, read this
dialogue between Henry and The Judge.

Henry: Your Honor, yes it is true that I robbed that bank
and in the process I killed three bank tellers, but Your
Honor, God is Omniscient and God knew I would rob
the bank and kill those three tellers, so Your Honor its
not my fault that I committed this crime, I merely did
what God knew I would do.

The Judge: Oh okay, Henry. I understand. Thanks for
explaining. Case dismissed.

So?
So humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
So all this talk about Free Will NOT being a true, valid,
and legitimate explanation of why humans are personally
responsible before God for the evil choices they make
is irrational and belongs in the basement below the
basement where unproductive totally-useless abstract
philosophical academic speculations blathers on and on
and on.
Nothing said by humans can invalidate this truth: Humans
Are Responsible For Their Free Will Choices.
_________

Many Atheists blame God , , ,
However my view is that the air-tight solid truth
demonstrated in the conversation between
Henry and The Judge, will be dismissed as
nonsense by most atheists and the irrational
assault on the institution of human Free Will
as a legitimate and valid explanation of human
evil and sin will continue as if Henry and
The Judge had never been presented. Why?
Because atheists who remain atheists are
not going to ever give up blaming God for
the evil in the world -- and thereby excusing
themselves for their own Free Will evil
choices to do evil.

What does Henry and The Judge demonstrate?
That Humans Are Responsible For Their Free Will
Choices. -- and to say otherwise reduces to
absurd-nonsense.

The Coming Judgment , , ,
One last point: Not only does all of Civilized Law
recognize Free Will as a legitimate explanation for
human evil choices, but so does God and the Bible
and God's laws regarding Free Will will be applied
at The Judgment just as man's laws regarding Free Will
are applied in Human Courts. What does that mean?
It means that human Free Will choices will determine
human Eternal destiny. John 3:16 asks humans to make
a choice. Joshua 24:15 asks humans to make a choice.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
then choose for yourselves this day whom you will
serve, whether the gods your ancestors served
beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites,
in whose land you are living. But as for me and my
household, we will serve the LORD." ___Joshua 24:15

Which god?

This country was founded on the principle that each person is free to worship God as they see fit. So it's whichever perception you choose.

That you can't figure out who God is to worship is a ridiculous reason not to believe that there is a creator of existence.

 

[ding]

Andy Atheist Wrote:
"If God is all knowing (Omniscient} then it logically
follows that if God knows today, what choices I will
make tomorrow, then I have no choice tomorrow
to do anything other than to make the choice that God
knew I would choose."___Andy Atheist

There is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea that God knows what each individual will do tomorrow. Omniscient means knowing everything there is to know as soon as it is knowable. The Bible tells us that God does know His own future plans and that He will bring His plans to fruition. Since God does know everything that is knowable today, I haven't a doubt He has great insights as to what may take place tomorrow, but probably not down to what we humans will be doing in every future second of our life. Andy Atheist is arguing a fallacy.

The question of God's relation to time has generated a great amount of theological and philosophical reflection. The traditional view has been that God is timeless in the sense of being outside time altogether; that is, he exists but does not exist at any point in time and he does not experience temporal succession.

https://www.iep.utm.edu/god-time/#:~:text=The%20question%20of%20God's%20relation,does%20not%20experience%20temporal%20succession

.

Didn't Jesus have knowledge of future events?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I don't know what God is or isn't capable of knowing.

 

[ding]

Not exactly. There is lots of empirical evidence for God

No there isn't. If there were it would have been provided at some point in the last few thousand years.

You mean besides existence popping into existence from nothing and being hardwired to create beings that know and create?

Seems pretty empirical to me.