America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Porter Rockwell]

#732. 23980008

You are a liar. You are a rotten, filthy liar. I do not get to decide who meets the criteria for being a Christian and you are a low down, filthy liar. I've said no such thing to you at any time. If you post here again, that will be the only response you get from me.

Why did you decide that Jefferson was a Christian after being shown that Jefferson wrote in his own words that he did not believe in the divinity of Christ or that the Holy Bible was the word of God.

#188 23874264.

If you had read this thread, I proved, unequivocally, that Jefferson was a Christian. I am not going to argue what has been established as fact..

#193. 23874352

I made a case for Jefferson being a Christian. Since you have not quoted it and refuted those facts and obvious conclusions, one must accept the fact that silence is acceptance.

I responded to your post #188 thusly:

#192 23874333

No. You watered down the meaning of being a Christian so low that even I am a Christian by your definition.

But you have also stated that all Christians believe the Holy Bible is the Word if God? I don’t. Jefferson didn’t. So we must not be Christians. .

You also have stated that America is no longer s Christian Nation even though 65% of Americans profess to be Christians. You must have some criteria for you to have decided take many professing Christians are Christian enough to keep America a Christian Nation.

I don't respond to multi quotes so you're lucky I saw the last paragraph of your rotten, filthy, stinking LIES. Pay attention and quit pretending to be a dumb ass. NOBODY is that stupid. NOBODY.

I said THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO GOVERNMENTS OPERATING IN THE UNITED STATES: THE DE FACTO / ILLEGAL / UNCONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT THAT IS IN CONTROL AND THE DE JURE / LEGAL/ CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC GUARANTEED IN THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

Now quit your damn lying.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

In post # 486 we covered some ground that the resident troll insists on revisiting. This is how I answered him:

This thread is about the principles that this country was founded on. That doesn't seem to be that hard a concept to grasp.

Our principles, how we arrive at a fair outcome for aggrieved parties. We are not measured by any law devised by atheists, Muslims, or Hindus. Our system of jurisprudence is based off the common law which has its roots in Christianity.

So, that has zilch, zero, nada in establishing a state religion. You don't have to believe in religion in order for to use that measuring rod. To give you an analogy:

Soldiers live by the standards of warfare as put forth by Sun Tzu. As of this date I don't know anyone who has become a Chinese OR even converted because they learn warfare principles from a Chinese military leader.

Christianity is a part of our heritage. Some people like to argue that Jefferson's changing attitudes and political jockeying are what made America, but Jefferson only wrote a document that had to reflect the way 55 other signers felt. You put forth the proposition that America was founded by atheists and deists. Yet the reality is, only 4 percent of this country's inhabitants supported separating from King George and the reasoning had to be consistent with Christian principles in order to garner the support of the people. They did not want to change their Christian culture and heritage in exchange for escaping religious tyranny.

In the very first post on this thread, it gave you a look at what the founders believed and what was motivating them. You chose to ignore that and then cry and complain about my long posts. You would have spent less time figuring out what the colonists thought and believed relative to this as opposed to wanting a pissing match because you think you're going to prove we're discussing a theocracy and you're going to win some pretend debate based upon a straw man argument.

You've been proven wrong by 2 people and most others got the memo. I did not let them keep rehashing the first few posts that explained in great detail what the meaning of a Christian nation is. The truth seems to offend you, even when people are respectful for whatever religion - or non-religion you subscribe to. Rest assured, until Jesus Christ returns, there will not be a theocracy in America or any other country. No rational Christian is advocating it and to try and hijack a thread to prove something NOBODY is arguing is desperate and dishonest on your part.

So, you want people to believe that our forefathers took an oath saying that they believed in the principles of Christianity; the overwhelming majority of the people (98 percent) that were in the U.S. during the framing of the Constitution, and that we adopted the English common law - which has its roots in Christianity and it means nothing???

No, you've dodged, deflected, and even lied AND now you're down to refusing to return the courtesy and answer questions AFTER being too scared to deal with the OP. You cannot turn it around to fit your agenda. ding and I will not allow that to happen. So, you are left with having to deal with the facts.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The resident troll makes so many unfounded claims that all we can do is keep repeating what was REALLY said:

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

The resident troll claims that I said Jefferson was a Christian. That is a lie. Furthermore, only an idiot would claim that someone is the same person throughout a life that spans over 80 years. Only a moron would not understand that when I quote someone that is THEIR WORDS, NOT MINE. See post # 538

 

[whutTHEYsay]

23980967

I don't respond to multi quotes so you're lucky I

That is one quote from me. The multiple quotes are written by you so you can see the written record here. I even put the Post #s as you wished. You wrote what you wrote and you can’t make it go away. Now you can’t even look at what you wrote.

you run like a little bunny and change the subject to your two government conspiracy theory. Because who can argue with a conspiracy theorist.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Let's reproduce two postings to prove that our resident troll is a liar and is trolling. He's obviously a glutton for punishment. From post # 584:

So counselor, your case rests on lies and semantics. If you don't see the word "Christian, Jesus, and / or Christ" in every single document (even if there are 100 inferences) you reject it out of hand. Then, your whole case rests on a short span of Jefferson's life, a word that is missing, and YOUR opinion as to what constitutes a Christian.

You've offered up a case predicated upon what Jefferson said over a span of, maybe a decade and a half of a life that spanned about 83 years. On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a linguist. So, while you fret over the use of the word Divinity, being a linguist Jefferson may have interpreted the word differently than you in his personal opinion. Yet you say that one sentence (in any context) doesn't mean what he said. Your claim is that Jefferson always believed one way and that his experiences with religion and the practices of churches had no impact on his evolving ideology. Even your own life should reveal the error in that mode of thinking. If Jefferson said one bad thing about religion, churches, the clergy, the man - interpreted doctrines or the way organized religion was conducted, then Jefferson is an atheist. What you propose is an insult to common sense; it denies reality. My mother used to say, a man is known by the company he keeps.

I've posted enough about the people that Jefferson associated with (as have other posters) to show you are absolutely full of crap. You want an argument that I said America is a theocracy, which is an absolute LIE that you set out to sell. By culture, by tradition, by birth, and by customs, America was founded as a Christian nation.

Our system of jurisprudence is based on the common law which has its roots in Christianity. We don't necessarily reach Christian based conclusions, but the method whereby we arrive at the answer is based upon Christian principles. Our governing documents have enough biblical corollaries so that anyone can see they were written by people who worshiped a Christian God. This thread destroyed your primary thesis, but you took it personal against me as you want to present me as something I'm not and having done things I most assuredly did not.. among them, was to lie.

This is from post # 590:

It is not for me or for you to judge who is and who is not a Christian. Religious tests are prohibited in the United States. Now, for some history. According to Wikipedia regarding Thomas Jefferson:

"He was then elected to the Virginia House of Delegates for Albemarle County in September 1776, when finalizing a state constitution was a priority.

Jefferson was elected governor for one-year terms in 1779 and 1780."

Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

Now, you've wasted all this bandwidth to make Jefferson a God. You have to admit that Jefferson must have wielded some power and influence in the wording of the 1776 Constitution of Virginia. He's been so all fired important up to this point. His priority is finalizing a state constitution. May I quote from that document?

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

Christianity is a part of this nation's culture. IF Jefferson was all so atheist / secular / humanist Christ hating as you proclaim, you definitely have a problem. Otherwise Virginians would only have had a duty to practice love and charity towards each other. Instead, as part of our culture the citizens of Virginia were to practice "Christian forbearance toward one another..."

That don't count does it? Practicing a Christian trait identifies the people as Christian, but it did not establish a theocracy. It simply states that we have a duty to practice Christian forbearance - not Muslim Forbearance or Jewish Forbearance - or Hindu Forbearance or some religion neutral Forbearance.


You want to argue some more or keep this up? Next question.

Your lies, deflections and that personal numbering crap amount to nothing. I trust people can find the post numbers of this thread and follow along to see what you really said as you lie and squirm after berating me and falsely accusing me of "Trumpism."

You've avoided EVERY question asked of you. Let us see if you can be honest for once. What person on the right has stated that America was founded as a theocracy? Remember, the way you set the bar, there can be NO inferences or things that theocrats might say. Give me a quote of any of these right wingers you claim to be sounding like me advocating for a theocracy. Give me one name and one link of verification.

Every lie that troll posted has been debunked and what he's doing now is cowardly harassment, but if he enjoys getting his ass kicked, there are over 50 posts on this thread alone where other posters have told him he lost any "debate" and he is lying. He is what he is. It takes a desperate troll to say I'm running or hiding because I don't respond to his private numbering system nor validate him by revisiting the same damn arguments every day when he can't change the bottom line.

BTW check posts # 548 and 586. Only an idiot would argue that our resident troll wasn't responded to completely with verified sources.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

23981042

The resident troll makes so many unfounded claims that all we can do is keep repeating what was REALLY said:

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

Yes and Is it true that it had been pointed out to you exactly what Jefferson meant had you had the honesty to post the full sentence:

“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.”

It is true you know the full statement and that Jefferson does not believe in “heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man,”

and knowing that truth you still say Jefferson was a Bible is the WORD OF GOD Christian.

i have not lied at any point on this thread. It is apparent that when you are cornered you blast the truth away by screaming liar liar liar troll troll troll.

It does not work with me.

I can put every single post in order and the truth will be shown / truth is on my side.

You still won’t admit you left “DIFFERENT FROM” from Jefferson’s full statement.

No historical scholar would give you a pass on that.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Let's reproduce two postings to prove that our resident troll is a liar and is trolling. He's obviously a glutton for punishment. From post # 584:

So counselor, your case rests on lies and semantics. If you don't see the word "Christian, Jesus, and / or Christ" in every single document (even if there are 100 inferences) you reject it out of hand. Then, your whole case rests on a short span of Jefferson's life, a word that is missing, and YOUR opinion as to what constitutes a Christian.

You've offered up a case predicated upon what Jefferson said over a span of, maybe a decade and a half of a life that spanned about 83 years. On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a linguist. So, while you fret over the use of the word Divinity, being a linguist Jefferson may have interpreted the word differently than you in his personal opinion. Yet you say that one sentence (in any context) doesn't mean what he said. Your claim is that Jefferson always believed one way and that his experiences with religion and the practices of churches had no impact on his evolving ideology. Even your own life should reveal the error in that mode of thinking. If Jefferson said one bad thing about religion, churches, the clergy, the man - interpreted doctrines or the way organized religion was conducted, then Jefferson is an atheist. What you propose is an insult to common sense; it denies reality. My mother used to say, a man is known by the company he keeps.

I've posted enough about the people that Jefferson associated with (as have other posters) to show you are absolutely full of crap. You want an argument that I said America is a theocracy, which is an absolute LIE that you set out to sell. By culture, by tradition, by birth, and by customs, America was founded as a Christian nation.

Our system of jurisprudence is based on the common law which has its roots in Christianity. We don't necessarily reach Christian based conclusions, but the method whereby we arrive at the answer is based upon Christian principles. Our governing documents have enough biblical corollaries so that anyone can see they were written by people who worshiped a Christian God. This thread destroyed your primary thesis, but you took it personal against me as you want to present me as something I'm not and having done things I most assuredly did not.. among them, was to lie.

This is from post # 590:

It is not for me or for you to judge who is and who is not a Christian. Religious tests are prohibited in the United States. Now, for some history. According to Wikipedia regarding Thomas Jefferson:

"He was then elected to the Virginia House of Delegates for Albemarle County in September 1776, when finalizing a state constitution was a priority.

Jefferson was elected governor for one-year terms in 1779 and 1780."

Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

Now, you've wasted all this bandwidth to make Jefferson a God. You have to admit that Jefferson must have wielded some power and influence in the wording of the 1776 Constitution of Virginia. He's been so all fired important up to this point. His priority is finalizing a state constitution. May I quote from that document?

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

Christianity is a part of this nation's culture. IF Jefferson was all so atheist / secular / humanist Christ hating as you proclaim, you definitely have a problem. Otherwise Virginians would only have had a duty to practice love and charity towards each other. Instead, as part of our culture the citizens of Virginia were to practice "Christian forbearance toward one another..."

That don't count does it? Practicing a Christian trait identifies the people as Christian, but it did not establish a theocracy. It simply states that we have a duty to practice Christian forbearance - not Muslim Forbearance or Jewish Forbearance - or Hindu Forbearance or some religion neutral Forbearance.


You want to argue some more or keep this up? Next question.

Your lies, deflections and that personal numbering crap amount to nothing. I trust people can find the post numbers of this thread and follow along to see what you really said as you lie and squirm after berating me and falsely accusing me of "Trumpism."

You've avoided EVERY question asked of you. Let us see if you can be honest for once. What person on the right has stated that America was founded as a theocracy? Remember, the way you set the bar, there can be NO inferences or things that theocrats might say. Give me a quote of any of these right wingers you claim to be sounding like me advocating for a theocracy. Give me one name and one link of verification.

Every lie that troll posted has been debunked and what he's doing now is cowardly harassment, but if he enjoys getting his ass kicked, there are over 50 posts on this thread alone where other posters have told him he lost any "debate" and he is lying. He is what he is. It takes a desperate troll to say I'm running or hiding because I don't respond to his private numbering system nor validate him by revisiting the same damn arguments every day when he can't change the bottom line.

BTW check posts # 548 and 586. Only an idiot would argue that our resident troll wasn't responded to completely with verified sources.

Your wall of words mean nothing.

You cut out the full context of what Jefferson wrote.

you have not addressed or explained why you get to do that.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Let's reproduce two postings to prove that our resident troll is a liar and is trolling. He's obviously a glutton for punishment. From post # 584:

So counselor, your case rests on lies and semantics. If you don't see the word "Christian, Jesus, and / or Christ" in every single document (even if there are 100 inferences) you reject it out of hand. Then, your whole case rests on a short span of Jefferson's life, a word that is missing, and YOUR opinion as to what constitutes a Christian.

You've offered up a case predicated upon what Jefferson said over a span of, maybe a decade and a half of a life that spanned about 83 years. On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a linguist. So, while you fret over the use of the word Divinity, being a linguist Jefferson may have interpreted the word differently than you in his personal opinion. Yet you say that one sentence (in any context) doesn't mean what he said. Your claim is that Jefferson always believed one way and that his experiences with religion and the practices of churches had no impact on his evolving ideology. Even your own life should reveal the error in that mode of thinking. If Jefferson said one bad thing about religion, churches, the clergy, the man - interpreted doctrines or the way organized religion was conducted, then Jefferson is an atheist. What you propose is an insult to common sense; it denies reality. My mother used to say, a man is known by the company he keeps.

I've posted enough about the people that Jefferson associated with (as have other posters) to show you are absolutely full of crap. You want an argument that I said America is a theocracy, which is an absolute LIE that you set out to sell. By culture, by tradition, by birth, and by customs, America was founded as a Christian nation.

Our system of jurisprudence is based on the common law which has its roots in Christianity. We don't necessarily reach Christian based conclusions, but the method whereby we arrive at the answer is based upon Christian principles. Our governing documents have enough biblical corollaries so that anyone can see they were written by people who worshiped a Christian God. This thread destroyed your primary thesis, but you took it personal against me as you want to present me as something I'm not and having done things I most assuredly did not.. among them, was to lie.

This is from post # 590:

It is not for me or for you to judge who is and who is not a Christian. Religious tests are prohibited in the United States. Now, for some history. According to Wikipedia regarding Thomas Jefferson:

"He was then elected to the Virginia House of Delegates for Albemarle County in September 1776, when finalizing a state constitution was a priority.

Jefferson was elected governor for one-year terms in 1779 and 1780."

Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

Now, you've wasted all this bandwidth to make Jefferson a God. You have to admit that Jefferson must have wielded some power and influence in the wording of the 1776 Constitution of Virginia. He's been so all fired important up to this point. His priority is finalizing a state constitution. May I quote from that document?

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

Christianity is a part of this nation's culture. IF Jefferson was all so atheist / secular / humanist Christ hating as you proclaim, you definitely have a problem. Otherwise Virginians would only have had a duty to practice love and charity towards each other. Instead, as part of our culture the citizens of Virginia were to practice "Christian forbearance toward one another..."

That don't count does it? Practicing a Christian trait identifies the people as Christian, but it did not establish a theocracy. It simply states that we have a duty to practice Christian forbearance - not Muslim Forbearance or Jewish Forbearance - or Hindu Forbearance or some religion neutral Forbearance.


You want to argue some more or keep this up? Next question.

Your lies, deflections and that personal numbering crap amount to nothing. I trust people can find the post numbers of this thread and follow along to see what you really said as you lie and squirm after berating me and falsely accusing me of "Trumpism."

You've avoided EVERY question asked of you. Let us see if you can be honest for once. What person on the right has stated that America was founded as a theocracy? Remember, the way you set the bar, there can be NO inferences or things that theocrats might say. Give me a quote of any of these right wingers you claim to be sounding like me advocating for a theocracy. Give me one name and one link of verification.

Every lie that troll posted has been debunked and what he's doing now is cowardly harassment, but if he enjoys getting his ass kicked, there are over 50 posts on this thread alone where other posters have told him he lost any "debate" and he is lying. He is what he is. It takes a desperate troll to say I'm running or hiding because I don't respond to his private numbering system nor validate him by revisiting the same damn arguments every day when he can't change the bottom line.

BTW check posts # 548 and 586. Only an idiot would argue that our resident troll wasn't responded to completely with verified sources.

Your wall of words mean nothing.

You cut out the full context of what Jefferson wrote.

you have not addressed or explained why you get to do that.

My 'wall of words" proved you were a liar and any scholar would agree with what I said regarding Jefferson. I'll post it again since you didn't read them the first six times they were written.

How would you like a challenge to go through the entire thread and count the times YOU were called a troll and a liar by OTHER posters compared to the times it happened to me?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Let's reproduce two postings to prove that our resident troll is a liar and is trolling. He's obviously a glutton for punishment. From post # 584:

So counselor, your case rests on lies and semantics. If you don't see the word "Christian, Jesus, and / or Christ" in every single document (even if there are 100 inferences) you reject it out of hand. Then, your whole case rests on a short span of Jefferson's life, a word that is missing, and YOUR opinion as to what constitutes a Christian.

You've offered up a case predicated upon what Jefferson said over a span of, maybe a decade and a half of a life that spanned about 83 years. On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a linguist. So, while you fret over the use of the word Divinity, being a linguist Jefferson may have interpreted the word differently than you in his personal opinion. Yet you say that one sentence (in any context) doesn't mean what he said. Your claim is that Jefferson always believed one way and that his experiences with religion and the practices of churches had no impact on his evolving ideology. Even your own life should reveal the error in that mode of thinking. If Jefferson said one bad thing about religion, churches, the clergy, the man - interpreted doctrines or the way organized religion was conducted, then Jefferson is an atheist. What you propose is an insult to common sense; it denies reality. My mother used to say, a man is known by the company he keeps.

I've posted enough about the people that Jefferson associated with (as have other posters) to show you are absolutely full of crap. You want an argument that I said America is a theocracy, which is an absolute LIE that you set out to sell. By culture, by tradition, by birth, and by customs, America was founded as a Christian nation.

Our system of jurisprudence is based on the common law which has its roots in Christianity. We don't necessarily reach Christian based conclusions, but the method whereby we arrive at the answer is based upon Christian principles. Our governing documents have enough biblical corollaries so that anyone can see they were written by people who worshiped a Christian God. This thread destroyed your primary thesis, but you took it personal against me as you want to present me as something I'm not and having done things I most assuredly did not.. among them, was to lie.

This is from post # 590:

It is not for me or for you to judge who is and who is not a Christian. Religious tests are prohibited in the United States. Now, for some history. According to Wikipedia regarding Thomas Jefferson:

"He was then elected to the Virginia House of Delegates for Albemarle County in September 1776, when finalizing a state constitution was a priority.

Jefferson was elected governor for one-year terms in 1779 and 1780."

Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

Now, you've wasted all this bandwidth to make Jefferson a God. You have to admit that Jefferson must have wielded some power and influence in the wording of the 1776 Constitution of Virginia. He's been so all fired important up to this point. His priority is finalizing a state constitution. May I quote from that document?

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

Christianity is a part of this nation's culture. IF Jefferson was all so atheist / secular / humanist Christ hating as you proclaim, you definitely have a problem. Otherwise Virginians would only have had a duty to practice love and charity towards each other. Instead, as part of our culture the citizens of Virginia were to practice "Christian forbearance toward one another..."

That don't count does it? Practicing a Christian trait identifies the people as Christian, but it did not establish a theocracy. It simply states that we have a duty to practice Christian forbearance - not Muslim Forbearance or Jewish Forbearance - or Hindu Forbearance or some religion neutral Forbearance.


You want to argue some more or keep this up? Next question.

Your lies, deflections and that personal numbering crap amount to nothing. I trust people can find the post numbers of this thread and follow along to see what you really said as you lie and squirm after berating me and falsely accusing me of "Trumpism."

You've avoided EVERY question asked of you. Let us see if you can be honest for once. What person on the right has stated that America was founded as a theocracy? Remember, the way you set the bar, there can be NO inferences or things that theocrats might say. Give me a quote of any of these right wingers you claim to be sounding like me advocating for a theocracy. Give me one name and one link of verification.

Every lie that troll posted has been debunked and what he's doing now is cowardly harassment, but if he enjoys getting his ass kicked, there are over 50 posts on this thread alone where other posters have told him he lost any "debate" and he is lying. He is what he is. It takes a desperate troll to say I'm running or hiding because I don't respond to his private numbering system nor validate him by revisiting the same damn arguments every day when he can't change the bottom line.

BTW check posts # 548 and 586. Only an idiot would argue that our resident troll wasn't responded to completely with verified sources.

And yet the troll DID come back and argue it again. You can't make this stuff up...

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#742 23981019

Some people like to argue that Jefferson's changing attitudes and political jockeying are what made America,

I don’t argue that at all. As a “Real Christian as defined in earlier posts on this thread and as our Third President defined it, I argue that an outdated, white European version of archaic, patriarchal, Protestant only Christianity, that was deeply imbued with belief and adherence to a pure Christian, Word of GOD, Biblical society that is the only model for a good society, is a very huge part of our heritage and of the founding of America.

 

[Correll]

The op is about the nation. Not having an established religion, or more to the point, an established CHURCH, does not mean the nation is not, or was not, Christian.

The OP told me that if one believes only that Jesus was a great moral teacher but rejects the hocus-pocus of Christianity then that person is a Christian. Does that match your definition of being a Christian?

You are a liar. You are a rotten, filthy liar. I do not get to decide who meets the criteria for being a Christian and you are a low down, filthy liar. I've said no such thing to you at any time. If you post here again, that will be the only response you get from me.

Repeatedly is it was W, who tried to decide who met the criteria for being a Christian. That was one of his primary arguments.

 

[rightwinger]

“We are not a Democracy. So, when the law is applied, generally speaking, it is done with an understanding of biblical precedents / principles.“

"Stare decisis is a legal doctrine that obligates courts to follow historical cases when making a ruling on a similar case. Stare decisis ensures that cases with similar scenarios and facts are approached in the same way. Simply put, it binds courts to follow legal precedents set by previous decisions.

...The U.S. common law structure has a unified system of deciding legal matters with the principle of stare decisis at its core, making the concept of legal precedent extremely important. A prior ruling or judgment on any case is known as a precedent. Stare decisis dictates that courts look to precedents when overseeing an on-going case with similar circumstances."

Stare Decisis and Legal Court Precedents

"The principle of the precedent is eminently philosophical. The English constitution would not have developed itself without it. What is called the English constitution consists of the fundamentals of the British polity, laid down in custom, precedent, decisions and statutes; and the common law in it is a far greater portion than the statute law. The English Constitution is chiefly a common-law constitution; and this reflex of a continuous society in a continuous law is more truly philosophical than the theoretic and sytematic, but lifeless constitutions of recent France:" Lieber's Civil Liberty. And in our own country the maintenance of this doctrine is of peculiar importance on account of the deference which we are accustomed to pay to the decisions of the law courts, even in cases where their logical correctness is open to doubt. This recognition of the power and province of the judicial tribunals in the guidance and settlement of our civil institutions, leads the American citizen to yield his implicit obedience to their doctrines even when the decision of a court lays a controlling and shaping hand, not formally, perhaps, but in the necessary deductions from its conclusions, upon the most zealously debated political questions, or the most important affairs of government. Then if progress be desirable, if the growth of the nation, in the perfect development of constitutional government, as well as in the stability of its institutions, be a desideratum, these objects can certainly not be attained by a disregard of the principle of stare decisis.


https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4147&context=penn_law_review

Also see this:

Precedent and Analogy in Legal Reasoning (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

"Case Law, often used interchangeably with the term Common Law, refers to the precedents and authority set by previous court rulings, judicial decisions and administrative legal findings or rulings. This is one of the main categories of law, with constitutional law, statutory law and regulatory law."


https://www.hg.org/case-law.html

"-In Andrew v. New York Bible and Prayer Book Society (1850), 4 Sandf. i56, the New York Superior Court decided that a legacy to the Bible Society was not a pious use, authorized by law. In the course of his opinion, Judge DUER, said: "The maxim that Christianity is part and parcel of the common law, has been frequently repeated by judges and text writers, but few have chosen to examine its truth, or to attempt to explain its meaning. We have, however, the high authority of Lord MANSFIELD and of his successor, the present Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench [Lord CAMPBELL] for stating as its true and only sense, that the law will not permit the essential truths of revealed religion to be ridiculed and reviled. In other words, blasphemy is an indictable offence at common law. (p. 182.)

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4290&context=penn_law_review

This is especially relevant:

"England is the origin of the common law that exists in the U.S.. The English common law originated in the early middle ages in the King’s Court (Curia Regis) and eventually led to the formulation of various viable principles through which it continues to operate. The common law has its roots in the U.S continent with the first English colonists who claimed the common law system as their birthright.

After the American Revolution, this Common Law was adopted by each of the states as well as the national government of the new nation.

...Christianity is part of the origin of the common law."

Origins of Common Law – Common Law

The common law does NOT establish a religion. Its precedents are consistent with Christian values. Since the United States is a Republic, changing those values LEGALLY AND CONSTITUTIONALLY requires us to amendment Constitution if we don't like the constitutional basis on which the law rests.

The principle applies to legal precedents
Citing the Bible as your precedent will get your case thrown out

Want to know why?



Because we are not a Christian Nation

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#742 23981019

You put forth the proposition that America was founded by atheists and deists.

i never. Why would a Real Christian like me want to tell the lie that America was founded by atheists.

I have self identified as a Real Christian exactly as defined by Thomas Jefferson here;

In the FULL STATEMENT.

“I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. If I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side.”

To Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816. see bold text in except from the whole original. To Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816 < The Letters of Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 < Thomas Jefferson < Presidents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#742 23981019

You put forth the proposition that America was founded by atheists and deists.

i never. Why would a Real Christian like me want to deny the REAL TRUTH that Jefferson self-identifies as a Deist, a Real Christian, a Unitarian, and more.

I have self identified as a Real Christian exactly as defined by Thomas Jefferson here;

In the FULL STATEMENT.

“I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. If I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side.”

To Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816. see bold text in except from the whole original. To Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816 < The Letters of Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 < Thomas Jefferson < Presidents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond


Deism and Real Christianity are beautifully sewn together in Jeffersonian enlightenment religion.

• Though often not religious in the traditional sense, especially with their commitment to questioning tradition, philosophes had an undying faith in progress.

7 Enlightenment & Great Awakening | History Hub

• Enlightenment Religion. The Enlightenment’s signature religion was Deism, though there were plenty of atheist and Christian Enlightenment philosophers as well. Deists were religious, to be sure, but they rejected two central tenants of traditional religion. First, in the name of progress, they disagreed that everything important to know was already known. That notion is implicit in the very word enlightenment, along with future historical tags like Dark Ages to contrast the period behind them. Second, they rejected Scriptural revelation and the sovereign, father-figure conception of the Judeo-Christian God in favor of a more impersonal force having created the universe. Their revelation was nature itself rather than Scripture, so science provided the path to the divine. While Deist ideas are still around today, it never formed into an organized church.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

23981160

My 'wall of words" proved you were a liar and any scholar would agree with what I said regarding Jefferson.

No sixth grader would agree with your absurd claim that this:

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." --The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

......Is Jefferson self-identifying as a believer in the Divinity of Christ, that Christ died for his sins, and the the Holy Bible is the Word of God.

Because the whole statement is this:

• “ I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.”

That is because every sixth grader in the world knows that when a person uses the phrase “VERY DIFFERENT FROM” it means “NUTHIN F’ckN LIKE”.

Therefore a Real Christian in Jefferson’s mind is NUTHIN F’ckN LIKE what you say Jefferson self-identifies to being.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#742 23981019

Some people like to argue that Jefferson's changing attitudes and political jockeying are what made America,

I don’t argue that at all. As a “Real Christian as defined in earlier posts on this thread and as our Third President defined it, I argue that an outdated, white European version of archaic, patriarchal, Protestant only Christianity, that was deeply imbued with belief and adherence to a pure Christian, Word of GOD, Biblical society that is the only model for a good society, is a very huge part of our heritage and of the founding of America.

You are entitled to your opinion, but your definitions are not the Word of God, so I do not have to accept them.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

“We are not a Democracy. So, when the law is applied, generally speaking, it is done with an understanding of biblical precedents / principles.“

"Stare decisis is a legal doctrine that obligates courts to follow historical cases when making a ruling on a similar case. Stare decisis ensures that cases with similar scenarios and facts are approached in the same way. Simply put, it binds courts to follow legal precedents set by previous decisions.

...The U.S. common law structure has a unified system of deciding legal matters with the principle of stare decisis at its core, making the concept of legal precedent extremely important. A prior ruling or judgment on any case is known as a precedent. Stare decisis dictates that courts look to precedents when overseeing an on-going case with similar circumstances."

Stare Decisis and Legal Court Precedents

"The principle of the precedent is eminently philosophical. The English constitution would not have developed itself without it. What is called the English constitution consists of the fundamentals of the British polity, laid down in custom, precedent, decisions and statutes; and the common law in it is a far greater portion than the statute law. The English Constitution is chiefly a common-law constitution; and this reflex of a continuous society in a continuous law is more truly philosophical than the theoretic and sytematic, but lifeless constitutions of recent France:" Lieber's Civil Liberty. And in our own country the maintenance of this doctrine is of peculiar importance on account of the deference which we are accustomed to pay to the decisions of the law courts, even in cases where their logical correctness is open to doubt. This recognition of the power and province of the judicial tribunals in the guidance and settlement of our civil institutions, leads the American citizen to yield his implicit obedience to their doctrines even when the decision of a court lays a controlling and shaping hand, not formally, perhaps, but in the necessary deductions from its conclusions, upon the most zealously debated political questions, or the most important affairs of government. Then if progress be desirable, if the growth of the nation, in the perfect development of constitutional government, as well as in the stability of its institutions, be a desideratum, these objects can certainly not be attained by a disregard of the principle of stare decisis.


https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4147&context=penn_law_review

Also see this:

Precedent and Analogy in Legal Reasoning (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

"Case Law, often used interchangeably with the term Common Law, refers to the precedents and authority set by previous court rulings, judicial decisions and administrative legal findings or rulings. This is one of the main categories of law, with constitutional law, statutory law and regulatory law."


https://www.hg.org/case-law.html

"-In Andrew v. New York Bible and Prayer Book Society (1850), 4 Sandf. i56, the New York Superior Court decided that a legacy to the Bible Society was not a pious use, authorized by law. In the course of his opinion, Judge DUER, said: "The maxim that Christianity is part and parcel of the common law, has been frequently repeated by judges and text writers, but few have chosen to examine its truth, or to attempt to explain its meaning. We have, however, the high authority of Lord MANSFIELD and of his successor, the present Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench [Lord CAMPBELL] for stating as its true and only sense, that the law will not permit the essential truths of revealed religion to be ridiculed and reviled. In other words, blasphemy is an indictable offence at common law. (p. 182.)

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4290&context=penn_law_review

This is especially relevant:

"England is the origin of the common law that exists in the U.S.. The English common law originated in the early middle ages in the King’s Court (Curia Regis) and eventually led to the formulation of various viable principles through which it continues to operate. The common law has its roots in the U.S continent with the first English colonists who claimed the common law system as their birthright.

After the American Revolution, this Common Law was adopted by each of the states as well as the national government of the new nation.

...Christianity is part of the origin of the common law."

Origins of Common Law – Common Law

The common law does NOT establish a religion. Its precedents are consistent with Christian values. Since the United States is a Republic, changing those values LEGALLY AND CONSTITUTIONALLY requires us to amendment Constitution if we don't like the constitutional basis on which the law rests.

The principle applies to legal precedents
Citing the Bible as your precedent will get your case thrown out

Want to know why?



Because we are not a Christian Nation

Citing the Bible will not get a case thrown out of court. Not citing a legal precedent to uphold your arguments in a question of law will. And the common law is predicated upon Christianity.

We do not have an established religion. We have Freedom OF Religion in a country whose legal system understands the concepts of right and wrong from a Christian perspective.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#742 23981019

You put forth the proposition that America was founded by atheists and deists.

i never. Why would a Real Christian like me want to tell the lie that America was founded by atheists.

I have self identified as a Real Christian exactly as defined by Thomas Jefferson here;

In the FULL STATEMENT.

“I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. If I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side.”

To Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816. see bold text in except from the whole original. To Charles Thomson Monticello, January 9, 1816 < The Letters of Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 < Thomas Jefferson < Presidents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

Yawn. Irrelevant.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23981160

My 'wall of words" proved you were a liar and any scholar would agree with what I said regarding Jefferson.

No sixth grader would agree with your absurd claim that this:

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." --The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

......Is Jefferson self-identifying as a believer in the Divinity of Christ, that Christ died for his sins, and the the Holy Bible is the Word of God.

Because the whole statement is this:

• “ I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.”

That is because every sixth grader in the world knows that when a person uses the phrase “VERY DIFFERENT FROM” it means “NUTHIN F’ckN LIKE”.

Therefore a Real Christian in Jefferson’s mind is NUTHIN F’ckN LIKE what you say Jefferson self-identifies to being.

You are a liar. I have not laid down ANY qualifications other than the person's own self declarations. You are a rotten, filthy liar. ALL of the scholars on this thread agreed with my position. So you are both wrong AND a liar.

The way I arrived at my final conclusion is to look at the final product. What did America become at the end of the day? There were 44 states, all teaching their children from Christian textbooks, acknowledging a Christian God in their state constitutions, and being judged by the common law that has its roots in Christianity. Over 98 percent of the people had a Bible in their homes on the day the Constitution was ratified and NONE of them agreed to forfeit any part of their religion or their heritage in exchange for citizenship under the Constitution.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

It has been the position of our resident troll that Thomas Jefferson occupies a position greater than the other founders because he penned the Declaration of Independence. It is his position that Jefferson came out of the womb declaring only one set of beliefs and went through life, never changing his world view based upon his experiences.

Biographers and historians have stated many times that Jefferson was an ambiguous man and nobody has a handle on understanding him. Jefferson said as much above. Yet we have a troll here who is making false claims about what I said regarding Jefferson; these claims have been refuted over and over. I looked at the time in which Jefferson said and did different things and what he signed his name to that would identify him as a Christian. The troll has done no such thing.

This is the 1776 Jefferson:

According to Wikipedia regarding Thomas Jefferson:

"He was then elected to the Virginia House of Delegates for Albemarle County in September 1776, when finalizing a state constitution was a priority.

Jefferson was elected governor for one-year terms in 1779 and 1780."

Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

Now, the troll wasted all this bandwidth to make Jefferson a God. You have to admit that Jefferson must have wielded some power and influence in the wording of the 1776 Constitution of Virginia. He's been so all fired important up to this point. His priority is finalizing a state constitution. May I quote from that document?

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

My contention is that Jefferson's view of the Bible was constantly evolving and he did not share his views with people until later in his life. Historians speculate that had Jefferson made some of his views, written in later years, public it would have been the controversy of all controversies.

https://www.history.com/news/thomas-jefferson-bible-religious-beliefs

Jefferson said enough of the right things to get the support of the religious community so he either believed as Christians of that era believed OR he was a slick con man. Jefferson said he was a Christian. I take him at his word. I simply do not believe that ANYONE comes out of the womb believing the same things throughout a 80 + year span of life.