Zone1 After having learned new information, I am not sure where the real Catholic Church is..

[Meriweather]

Only 144,000 are promised heaven in the bible. The great crowd has this promise-Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:29-- Those teaching all they go to heaven are in darkness-RUN FROM THEM=2Cor 11:12-15

And you take that 144,000 literally....

 

[kjw47]

And you take that 144,000 literally....

The great crowd-no man can number-Rev 7:9) The little flock( Luke 12:32) is numbered=144,000

 

[Meriweather]

The great crowd-no man can number-Rev 7:9) The little flock( Luke 12:32) is numbered=144,000

Again, a number you take literally.

 

[kjw47]

Again, a number you take literally.

It is literal. Its the whole reason to differentiate the little flock from the great crowd.

 

[Meriweather]

It is literal.

No.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Or what?

or be outside the TRUE Catholic Church

shouldn't have to put TRUE there but... sign of the times.. (we can thank Vatican II)

 

[notmyfault2020]

Only 144,000 are promised heaven in the bible. The great crowd has this promise-Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:29-- Those teaching all they go to heaven are in darkness-RUN FROM THEM=2Cor 11:12-15

that is a symbolic number

just another incidence showing our need for the Church Christ Himself founded.. not man (people getting things wrong.. misinterpretations galore!)

 

[Meriweather]

or be outside the TRUE Catholic Church

Ah, they drew a circle to shut us out, but love and truth had the wit to win, we drew a circle to take them in...

 

[notmyfault2020]

Ah, they drew a circle to shut us out, but love and truth had the wit to win, we drew a circle to take them in...

OUtside the Church there is no salvation

That is either true as it was centuries ago or it never was

which one do you think? It cannot be both

 

[Meriweather]

OUtside the Church there is no salvation

That is either true as it was centuries ago or it never was

For centuries, the only Christian Churches were Catholic--Roman-Catholic, Orthodox-Catholic. "Outside the Church there is no salvation" was said during the third century, long before any other Christian denominations were thought up. St. Cyprian (third century) noted that people needed to learn and understand the doctrine of salvation from the only Church who was then on hand to teach the doctrine of salvation.

Christians are the Body of Christ. Christians have been taught the doctrine of Christ and Salvation. Back in the third century, there was only one place to learn this. The Church. It is now spread all over the world, all over the Internet by Christians. If St. Cyprian were alive today, do you truly think he would be saying, "The only place you can learn about the salvation/redemption Christ brought into the world is inside the Catholic Church"?

 

[kjw47]

No.

The whole reason the little flock is numbered, and the great crowd no man can number is to show who gets what promise. The little flock= heaven, the great crowd = earth.

 

[notmyfault2020]

onl

For centuries, the only Christian Churches were Catholic--Roman-Catholic, Orthodox-Catholic. "Outside the Church there is no salvation" was said during the third century, long before any other Christian denominations were thought up. St. Cyprian (third century) noted that people needed to learn and understand the doctrine of salvation from the only Church who was then on hand to teach the doctrine of salvation.

Christians are the Body of Christ. Christians have been taught the doctrine of Christ and Salvation. Back in the third century, there was only one place to learn this. The Church. It is now spread all over the world, all over the Internet by Christians. If St. Cyprian were alive today, do you truly think he would be saying, "The only place you can learn about the salvation/redemption Christ brought into the world is inside the Catholic Church"?

only one problem

Truth does not change
People do change (or should) but the Truth does not change

If you say the Church stopped teaching Truth, which indeed is what you are saying..

Then you cannot call yourself a true Catholic. And no novus ordo person is-- IMO.. and my opinion is based on facts and information and history.. not just what I have chosen to believe. It is a fact that Vatican II taught error. If you want to suck up that error and inculcate it into your gray matter, that is YOU. But some Catholics seek truth and don't just believe what the parish priest tells them.. Who knows what said priest may do in his spare time.. God knows.. and we have, in recent times, found out what some of them were doing.. to children....

"You will know them by their fruits"


Did we have a major pedophile problem in the Church before Pius XII?

 

[Meriweather]

which one do you think? It cannot be both

Christians are the Church, not some building with a label. Without a Christian to teach and repeat what Jesus said, one who has never heard/understood salvation/redemption, there would be no way to hear of it.

Consider a solitary person who has never heard of Christ's salvation wandering into an unpopulated area. No one remained. There was a Catholic Church, empty. Could that empty building teach Christ's salvation?

The solitary person wanders on. Months later he runs into another traveler who happens to be a Christian of a non-Catholic denomination. Who is best able to introduce our first traveler to Christ's salvation--the empty Church or the non-Catholic Christian?

 

[Meriweather]

The whole reason the little flock is numbered, and the great crowd no man can number is to show who gets what promise. The little flock= heaven, the great crowd = earth.

Interesting interpretation, but not buying it...

 

[Meriweather]

If you say the Church stopped teaching Truth, which indeed is what you are saying..

Indeed that is not what I am saying.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Christians are the Church, not some building with a label. Without a Christian to teach and repeat what Jesus said, one who has never heard/understood salvation/redemption, there would be no way to hear of it.

used to be the Real Presence of Christ was IN THE Church at all times.. 24/7/364 (Good Friday being the exception but on that holy day, the Eucharist was simply moved to a place near the Church until the next day in commemoration of Jesus's death on the Cross)

So if you were to have gone into a Church back in the day when the Real Presence was there.. well, there would obviously be only ONE person there (human). So I guess one person is not a Church to you?

And when you leave the Church... leave said Presence.. does that make Jesus go away? Does His Presence leave when YOU leave..?

makes no sense

 

[notmyfault2020]

Indeed that is not what I am saying.

looks like it to me...

 

[Meriweather]

Did we have a major pedophile problem in the Church before Pius XII?

Did we have a news media to broadcast any problem that may or may not have existed? Pedophilia didn't wait to make an appearance until after Pope Pius XII. It is a problem that most likely arrived with early mankind. We are still fighting it.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Consider a solitary person who has never heard of Christ's salvation wandering into an unpopulated area. No one remained. There was a Catholic Church, empty. Could that empty building teach Christ's salvation?

These days, the answer to that Q cannot be certain as the Real Presence has probably been withdrawn, at least from some Catholic Churches.

If you are speaking of, say, 20 years ago.. the answer is YES, the Real Presence in that "empty" (according to you) building definitely teaches Christ's salvation.

 

[Meriweather]

makes no sense

You said it. I was speaking of followers of our Lord, Jesus. Why the need to turn Our Lord into one of his own followers to illustrate His presence in Church? That is what makes no sense.