Abraham Lincoln: Alternative History?

[paperview]

Boy, Wingnuts seem to have an awful lot of sympathy for Slave Rapist.

Oh, someone took away their right to rape their slaves! Bad old Lincoln!

and the resulting legacy of their children and children's children...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcCm_ySBslk]Strange Fruit - YouTube[/ame]

 

[JakeStarkey]

So...Lincoln threatening the South with war, which he did in his first inaugural if they refused to pay taxes to the Federal government, is okay with you.

I see no evidence you have read the First Inaugural. In 1860 federal revenue came from land sales of Western land and the tariff. The federal government levied no tax upon the states.

And Lincoln did not threaten war. He explicitly stated that the federal government would not disturb any citizen in their homes or farms; that any violence must be first initiated by the South itself.

It is apparent you did not read or comprehend Lincoln's first inaugural. He said this...

In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere.

I have pointed this out to you in other threads...which apparently you failed to comprehend or refused to accept the truth.

He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam.

The South clearly understood his meaning. He meant to kill them and destroy their property if they refused to pay him what he demanded. This is exactly what he did and for this, he committed treason and should have been impeached.

See the Morrill Tariff should you wish to inform yourself on this issue.

War is nearly ALWAYS:
1. A failure of leadership and;
2. Is promoted and executed by the power elite for nefarious reasons that usually include enriching the State and themselves.

The War of Northern Aggression (more aptly named The War of Lincoln's Aggression) was no exception.

Lincoln clearly said no such thing as "He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam." Lincoln said nothing about invasion, he said nothing about taxes.

He did say war could only come if the Southern states forced it on the national authority.

The Southern states did such, and they were executed for it.

The mistake was that the leading secessionists were not executed or imprisoned for life after the war.

Such a mistake will not happen again if traitors rise up against the government.

 

[Unkotare]

He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam.

That is not what it "clearly" means by any means.

 

[gipper]

He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam.

That is not what it "clearly" means by any means.

Please explain what it means.

 

[Unkotare]

He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam.

That is not what it "clearly" means by any means.

Please explain what it means.

I don't teach for free, and I don't take on hopeless cases like you. Go ask someone who gives a shit about you to clear it up for you.

 

[gipper]

I see no evidence you have read the First Inaugural. In 1860 federal revenue came from land sales of Western land and the tariff. The federal government levied no tax upon the states.

And Lincoln did not threaten war. He explicitly stated that the federal government would not disturb any citizen in their homes or farms; that any violence must be first initiated by the South itself.

It is apparent you did not read or comprehend Lincoln's first inaugural. He said this...

In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere.

I have pointed this out to you in other threads...which apparently you failed to comprehend or refused to accept the truth.

He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam.

The South clearly understood his meaning. He meant to kill them and destroy their property if they refused to pay him what he demanded. This is exactly what he did and for this, he committed treason and should have been impeached.

See the Morrill Tariff should you wish to inform yourself on this issue.

War is nearly ALWAYS:
1. A failure of leadership and;
2. Is promoted and executed by the power elite for nefarious reasons that usually include enriching the State and themselves.

The War of Northern Aggression (more aptly named The War of Lincoln's Aggression) was no exception.

Lincoln clearly said no such thing as "He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam." Lincoln said nothing about invasion, he said nothing about taxes.

He did say war could only come if the Southern states forced it on the national authority.

The Southern states did such, and they were executed for it.

The mistake was that the leading secessionists were not executed or imprisoned for life after the war.

Such a mistake will not happen again if traitors rise up against the government.

Wrong. Lincoln's words are clearly understood, by those who wish to understand.

If the South did not pay tribute to the Federal government, they would be destroyed. That is exactly what he meant. The Morrill Tariff was signed by Buchanan the day before Abe took office. The tariff imposed big hardships on the South, but certainly benefited Northern Republican interests...exactly what Lincoln wanted. The tariff was enacted with much of the southern state's reps and senators not present...and over their objections.

The seceding states offered to pay the federal government their portion of the national debt and for all federal facilities existing on their lands. Lincoln ignored the offer.

He then set up events at Ft Sumter. Then called up a huge army, a provocation for war, and invaded. He warred on fellow Americans, causing terrible death and destruction....and for this you admire him.

 

[paperview]

...

If the South did not pay tribute to the Federal government, they would be destroyed. That is exactly what he meant. The Morrill Tariff was signed by Buchanan the day before Abe took office. The tariff imposed big hardships on the South, but certainly benefited Northern Republican interests...exactly what Lincoln wanted. The tariff was enacted with much of the southern state's reps and senators not present...and over their objections.

By the time the Morrill Tarriff was passed, the majority of the rebel states had taken their ball and decided to start a war long before that.

THAT'S why they weren't present.

The seceding states offered to pay the federal government their portion of the national debt and for all federal facilities existing on their lands. Lincoln ignored the offer.

Lincoln wasn't even in office then.

AFTER the CSA attacked and seized forts and ships they couldn't own and attempted to pay for it is meaningless.

The south was itching to secede and nothing was going to stop them. Nothing unless the Union guaranteed them Slavery could remain and expand to all those future territories / states. The rebels weren't dumb in this respect: knew how to read a map.

And count.

He then set up events at Ft Sumter. Then called up a huge army, a provocation for war, and invaded. He warred on fellow Americans, causing terrible death and destruction....and for this you admire him.

To repeat again: The first shots were fired before Lincoln even stepped into the office.

 

[Unkotare]

Lincoln's words are clearly understood, by those who wish to understand..

They are clearly misinterpreted by the ignorant and/or those with an agenda.

 

[oldfart]

It is apparent you did not read or comprehend Lincoln's first inaugural. He said this...



I have pointed this out to you in other threads...which apparently you failed to comprehend or refused to accept the truth.

He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam.

The South clearly understood his meaning. He meant to kill them and destroy their property if they refused to pay him what he demanded. This is exactly what he did and for this, he committed treason and should have been impeached.

See the Morrill Tariff should you wish to inform yourself on this issue.

War is nearly ALWAYS:
1. A failure of leadership and;
2. Is promoted and executed by the power elite for nefarious reasons that usually include enriching the State and themselves.

The War of Northern Aggression (more aptly named The War of Lincoln's Aggression) was no exception.

Lincoln clearly said no such thing as "He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam." Lincoln said nothing about invasion, he said nothing about taxes.

He did say war could only come if the Southern states forced it on the national authority.

The Southern states did such, and they were executed for it.

The mistake was that the leading secessionists were not executed or imprisoned for life after the war.

Such a mistake will not happen again if traitors rise up against the government.

Wrong. Lincoln's words are clearly understood, by those who wish to understand.

If the South did not pay tribute to the Federal government, they would be destroyed. That is exactly what he meant. The Morrill Tariff was signed by Buchanan the day before Abe took office. The tariff imposed big hardships on the South, but certainly benefited Northern Republican interests...exactly what Lincoln wanted. The tariff was enacted with much of the southern state's reps and senators not present...and over their objections.

The seceding states offered to pay the federal government their portion of the national debt and for all federal facilities existing on their lands. Lincoln ignored the offer.

He then set up events at Ft Sumter. Then called up a huge army, a provocation for war, and invaded. He warred on fellow Americans, causing terrible death and destruction....and for this you admire him.

You have clearly crossed the line from creative historiography to totally delusional. Lots of luck in that.

 

[gipper]

Lincoln clearly said no such thing as "He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam." Lincoln said nothing about invasion, he said nothing about taxes.

He did say war could only come if the Southern states forced it on the national authority.

The Southern states did such, and they were executed for it.

The mistake was that the leading secessionists were not executed or imprisoned for life after the war.

Such a mistake will not happen again if traitors rise up against the government.

Wrong. Lincoln's words are clearly understood, by those who wish to understand.

If the South did not pay tribute to the Federal government, they would be destroyed. That is exactly what he meant. The Morrill Tariff was signed by Buchanan the day before Abe took office. The tariff imposed big hardships on the South, but certainly benefited Northern Republican interests...exactly what Lincoln wanted. The tariff was enacted with much of the southern state's reps and senators not present...and over their objections.

The seceding states offered to pay the federal government their portion of the national debt and for all federal facilities existing on their lands. Lincoln ignored the offer.

He then set up events at Ft Sumter. Then called up a huge army, a provocation for war, and invaded. He warred on fellow Americans, causing terrible death and destruction....and for this you admire him.

You have clearly crossed the line from creative historiography to totally delusional. Lots of luck in that.

Wrong again...and your response is lacking.

Let us do a thought experiment.
Should a state or region of the USA secede from the union TODAY, would you be fine with the federal government attacking that state or region, killing thousands and destroying vast amounts of private private, to stop them from seceding?

 

[JoeB131]

Wrong. Lincoln's words are clearly understood, by those who wish to understand.

If the South did not pay tribute to the Federal government, they would be destroyed. That is exactly what he meant. The Morrill Tariff was signed by Buchanan the day before Abe took office. The tariff imposed big hardships on the South, but certainly benefited Northern Republican interests...exactly what Lincoln wanted. The tariff was enacted with much of the southern state's reps and senators not present...and over their objections.

The seceding states offered to pay the federal government their portion of the national debt and for all federal facilities existing on their lands. Lincoln ignored the offer.

He then set up events at Ft Sumter. Then called up a huge army, a provocation for war, and invaded. He warred on fellow Americans, causing terrible death and destruction....and for this you admire him.

You have clearly crossed the line from creative historiography to totally delusional. Lots of luck in that.

Wrong again...and your response is lacking.

Let us do a thought experiment.
Should a state or region of the USA secede from the union TODAY, would you be fine with the federal government attacking that state or region, killing thousands and destroying vast amounts of private private, to stop them from seceding?

Yup, I'd be totally good with that. Then I would take all the survivors from the losing side, have a sham trial for them that would make Joe Stalin blush, and hang them along the side of the road as a warning.

What we should have done to the Confederates after the Civil War, we'd have saved ourselves 100 years of unnecesarry greif.

 

[oldfart]

What if the Trent Affair (US boarding a British Warship) let to the British and French intervening on the South's side. The Confederates were lobbying the British hard for them to intervene. They promised them the moon and the stars once they won. The French wanted to intervene to protect their trade, but were too weak to do it without the British. If the British and French landed troops in the States, the Confederates surely would have won the war.

What would America have looked like if that happened? When would slavery have ended?

My guess is slavery would have continued for 20-30 more years and would have been squashed out near the turn of the century!

The British and French would have controlled the seas, recognized the South, and kept the South armed and fed.

There would have been two American nations.

Read Turtledove's what-if novels on that scenario.

Lincoln's strategy was to keep England out of the war and to do that he would issue the Emancipation Proclamation. But Lincoln reasoned that he could not issue the procalmation as a losing gesture, he needed a victory before issuance. The victory was Antietam, then came the issuance and England would not enter the war.

Initially Lincoln intended to issue the Proclamation immediately. It was Seward who made the argument for delay until after at least a draw on the battlefield. It's hard to find many examples where Lincoln changed his mind based on his Cabinet's arguments, and this is the biggest one.

 

[oldfart]

The thing is, a few rich people got a lot of dumb poor white people to fight so they'd have a right to keep raping their slaves.

The profound stupidity of it all is mind-boggling.

At least the Germans have the good sense to be ashamed of what the Nazis did.

Do you really think white Americans aren't ashamed of slavery?

You obviously have never lived in Mississippi.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Just so.

 

[oldfart]

What if the Trent Affair (US boarding a British Warship) let to the British and French intervening on the South's side. The Confederates were lobbying the British hard for them to intervene. They promised them the moon and the stars once they won. The French wanted to intervene to protect their trade, but were too weak to do it without the British. If the British and French landed troops in the States, the Confederates surely would have won the war.

What would America have looked like if that happened? When would slavery have ended?

My guess is slavery would have continued for 20-30 more years and would have been squashed out near the turn of the century!

The British and French would have controlled the seas, recognized the South, and kept the South armed and fed.

There would have been two American nations.

Read Turtledove's what-if novels on that scenario.

Not so sure about that. The South was doing alright up until Gettysburg. If the South would have won at Gettysburg and then the British and French entered the war on the South's side, the North would have fallen.

These are what if scenarios and thank god the North won and the British and French stayed out of our civil war. Maybe the US should take note next time we decide to enter another countries civil war.

At the moment Pickett was organizing his attack, Pemberton was sending his request to Grant for terms. The war was decided militarily at that point and no rational foreign government could miss that the South was not going to win. Vicksburg, not Gettysburg, was the key.

 

[oldfart]

The South never stood a chance. They were outmanned, outgunned, out-infrastructured, out-everythinged....out of all possibility of winning.

It wasn't a matter of if, it was a matter of when.

The only way the North would have lost the Civil War would have been through a failure of political leadership and public opinion. Lincoln recognized that from the start. From Ft Sumter to the campaigns of late 1964, this formed his every decision. The pivot from compensated emancipation in the border states to the emancipation proclamation in the space of four months in 1862 sealed the result and created the situation you correctly identify as virtually inevitable. [And I shudder to use that word, but this case is one of the rare ones where it is justified]

 

[Penrod]

We all know that Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860 with less than 40% of the popular vote. What is less well known is that two Democrats and a Whig candidate split the rest of the vote, with only Lincoln's name appearing on all States' ballots. By modern standards, the election results would never have been accepted.

By the time of Lincoln's inauguration on March 4, 1861, South Carolina and six other States had seceded from the Union and formed the Confederate States of America. Interestingly, neither Virginia nor three other States had yet seceded. It was not until after President Lincoln's call for 75,000 soldiers to invade the seceding States that Virginia, the most populous and industrial southern State, joined the Confederacy and pulled in the rest of those States with her.

What if Lincoln had adopted a less aggressive posture towards these States? What if he had merely demanded the return of Federal property and compensation for any damage, rather than calling for an invasion? This would have been entirely justified by any standard as well as compliant with international law. Virginia was essential to the viability of the Confederacy. Would it have joined in the absence of Lincoln's attack on State Sovereignty?

Within 20 years of the end of the Civil War, slavery had been abolished in the Western Hemisphere and most of the rest of the world. Could not an accommodation with Virginia have been reached? The importation of slaves was already prohibited. For example, might not there have been an agreement that, henceforth, the children born to slaves would be free? Without Virginia, the Confederacy would have collapsed under its own weight.

Was "Preservation of the Union" worth 620,000 lives, more than all of our other wars combined? Might this armageddon have been avoided with a little less concern about Presidential prestige and legacy?

He could have bought their freedom for far less. He was a Tyrant.

 

[bripat9643]

Was "Preservation of the Union" worth 620,000 lives, more than all of our other wars combined?

Yes.

No. It wasn't worth one person's life.

 

[bripat9643]

What if he had merely demanded the return of Federal property and compensation for any damage, rather than calling for an invasion?

Lincoln called for no invasion. He only required that slavery remain in the Old South, the return of federal properties, and the acceptance of constitutional and electoral process.

Wrong, as usual.

You only proved that you're a senile moron, Fakey.

 

[bripat9643]

The problem was after the war, we decided to let the South keep it's dignity, instead of treating it like a defeated nation that did something wrong.

There should have been massive war crimes trials for the Southern leaders and execution for treasons. Anyone who wore the Gray never should have been allowed the vote again.

No one would have been convicted of treason because secession doesn't fit the definition in the Constitution. That's a fact that Northern politicians simply didn't want to become obvious. Lincoln's invasion of the Southern states was illegal. Grant and Sherman should have been put on trial for war crimes.