The Touchy Subject of Black Confederate Soldiers

No, I have not. And I could not find the website with a Google search. I know there was a movie with the same title produced by D. W. Griffith in the early 1900s, but I've never heard of a website with that title.

It's actually a cinematic classic. Made in 1909 by D.W. Griffith, it's a short one reel movie that was considered quite revolutionary at the time. A case of where the Indians were shown in a sympathetic light, and are forced by the "White Man" to leave their homes.



Feel free to watch it yourself, it's freely available as it's in the public domain.

But it has not a damned thing to do with "President Lincoln", in fact the time the movie is set in is never said. It could literally be any time after the Revolutionary War to the early 1900s.

God, I love when people make up a lot of crap and expect others to just believe it. But please, I welcome everybody to look at it. This is one of the movies that troubles film scholars today. Not because of the movie itself, but who made it.

Whenever people demand that nobody watch the works of D.W. Griffith, they are trying to erase well over a hundred films he made. Including this, Intolerance, Orphans of the Storm, America, and so many others.
 
This doesn't sound right. Lincoln never showed any animus toward the Indians. If he had harbored such feelings, he would have allowed the hanging of the 303 Indians who were tried by local authorities in Minnesota and sentenced to hang following the six-week Indian uprising there in 1862. Instead, he pardoned nearly all of the offenders and allowed only the worst of the lot to be hung, only 38 of them, who had committed rapes and massacres.

Furthermore, I can't imagine where the Indians could have obtained enough artillery and arty shells to have any hope of defeating the U.S. Army.

A lot of the largest issues with the Indians were with the Sioux. They were really the last of the "pure nomadic" tribes in the nation, and really did not have any kind of settlement or agriculture traditions like most of the other tribes did. Got over 400 years they had been purely nomadic, relying upon raiding, trading, or gathering as they passed through different areas. So when they tried to settle onto reservations they had huge problems feeding their population.

Plus, they were simply not very nice.
 
And more...


The problem, of course, is that there were no Black Confederate soldiers. The Confederate government refused to allow Blacks to enlist until March 1865, when, desperate for manpower, the Confederate Congress passed a law allowing African Americans to serve in combat roles. Even with the war nearly lost, this move was extremely controversial, as it flew in the face of Confederate racial ideology. “In my opinion, the worst calamity that could befall us would be to gain our independence by the valor of our slaves, instead of own,” wrote Robert Toombs, the first Confederate Secretary of State and a General in the Confederate army, “The day that the army of Virginia allows a negro regiment to enter their lines as soldiers they will be degraded, ruined, and disgraced.” Two weeks after the law allowing their service was passed and before any Black troops could be enlisted, the war was over.

But in many ways the most fascinating, and to my mind disturbing, part of the ridiculous attempt in South Carolina to erect a monument to imaginary Black Confederates has been the reaction of younger white nationalists to the suggestion. There has apparently been a pushback from the far right against the notion of a “Rainbow Confederacy.” The sorts of people who marched in Charlottesville last year openly embrace white supremacy and, not surprisingly, openly celebrate the Confederacy’s white supremacy, too.

Though historians should all want to see the myth of the Black Confederates disappear, its ideological usefulness in recent decades actually reflects positive changes in American life. While white supremacy has remained a powerful force in our political life, open white supremacy grew less socially and politically acceptable. Just as hypocrisy is the tribute that vice plays to virtue, the myth of Black Confederates was an attempted accommodation to the new political realities of post-Civil Rights and Voting Rights Act America. It is the kind of myth that appeals to white supremacists who like to be able to tell themselves that they are not racist.

But especially over the last two years, the open expression of racism has come to play a larger and larger role in our political life. We now have a president who suggests that some neo-Nazis are good people and who rails against accepting immigrants from “shithole” countries in Africa.
 
I have spoken to hundreds and hundreds of people from and in China. FOB. Certainly more than YOU, douche bag.

Yes, it is indeed odd how JoeB131 in one breath defends the mass murderer Mao Tse-Tung and praises Red China and then turns around and rails against George McClellan, Jefferson Davis, Joseph McCarthy, Robert Taft, etc. It is even more bizarre that he just can't grasp how thoroughly he discredits himself when he spews his anti-Semitic hatred and repeats Nazi lies about the Jews. It's just weird.

Anyway, moving on from JoeB131's ongoing nuttiness, I think it would be worthwhile to look at Frederick Douglass's entire statement about black Confederate combat troops. Some online neo-Radical apologists have claimed that Douglass was only referring to slaves who were serving in support roles, but Douglass made it clear that he distinguished between slaves serving in support roles and slaves who were serving as combat soldiers. Let's read his entire statement:

It is now pretty well established, that there are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may to destroy the Federal Government and build up that of the traitors and rebels. There were such soldiers at Manassas, and they are probably there still.

There is a Negro in the army as well as in the fence, and our Government is likely to find it out before the war comes to an end. That the Negroes are numerous in the rebel army, and do for that army its heaviest work, is beyond question. They have been the chief laborers upon those temporary defences in which the rebels have been able to mow down our men. Negroes helped to build the batteries at Charleston. They relieve their gentlemanly and military masters from the stiffening drudgery of the camp, and devote them to the nimble and dexterous use of arms. Rising above vulgar prejudice, the slaveholding rebel accepts the aid of the black man as readily as that of any other.

If a bad cause can do this, why should a good cause be less wisely conducted? We insist upon it, that one black regiment in such a war as this is, without being any more brave and orderly, would be worth to the Government more than two of any other; and that, while the Government continues to refuse the aid of colored men, thus alienating them from the national cause, and giving the rebels the advantage of them, it will not deserve better fortunes than it has thus far experienced.--Men in earnest don't fight with one hand, when they might fight with two, and a man drowning would not refuse to be saved even by a colored hand. ("Fighting Rebels with Only One Hand," Douglass' Monthly, September 1861, in Eric Foner, Give Me Liberty, Volume 3, pp. 153-154)


No rational person can read this and then argue that Douglass was merely referring to slaves who were serving as cooks and laborers.

We should keep in mind that for years during WWII, the only evidence we had of the Holocaust was anecdotal evidence, but it was rightly considered solid, credible evidence by all rational, objective people who looked at it. Our evidence of black Confederate combat troops is not limited to anecdotal evidence but also includes official Union army battle reports that did not surface until after the war. And, as I've discussed, anecdotal evidence is often rightly viewed as solid and credible, especially when it corroborated by official documents.

Of course, the biggest thorn in the side of the neo-Radical historians who deny that even a few thousand blacks voluntarily fought for the Confederacy is Lewis Steiner's detailed firsthand report of seeing some 3,000 black combat troops in Stonewall Jackson's army while it marched through Frederick, Maryland, in September 1862. Steiner was a highly educated man (in fact, he was an academic) and was staunchly anti-slavery and pro-Union, which is not surprising since he was a Republican. His two-page account of Jackson's black combat troops is contained in his sober 43-page report on his activities as the chief inspector of the U.S. Sanitary Commission for the U.S. Army of the Potomac.

The one and only argument that neo-Radical historians have made against Steiner's account is that it must be wrong because Steiner supposedly vastly overestimated the size of Lee's army (which included Jackson's force). But many scholars have pushed back against the traditional figure of 43,000 for the size of Lee's army, arguing that considerable evidence indicates it was much larger. Moreover, even if we assume that Steiner's estimate was off by a whopping 50%, that would still mean he saw about 1,500 black Confederate combat troops in Jackson's army.

Even this figure is wholly unacceptable to neo-Radical scholars, because they claim there were absolutely no more than perhaps two or three dozen such soldiers in the entire Confederate army and that these were informal, unofficial recruits who agreed to serve in their masters' units in exchange for freedom.

This whole controversy started way back when, when you had some Lost Cause apologists claiming that tens of thousands, or even over 100,000, blacks volunteered to fight for the Confederacy. When more careful, scholarly people in the Southern heritage camp looked at the evidence, they drastically reduced that figure down to around 10,000, give or take. Scott Williams, one of the more credible pro-Confederate authors, puts the figure at 13,000. I put the figure at no more than 7,000. Even 13,000 would be a small drop in the bucket compared to the size of the Confederate army, and especially compared to the 180,000 blacks who served as soldiers in the Union army.
 
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Yes, it is indeed odd how JoeB131 in one breath defends the mass murderer Mao Tse-Tung and praises Red China and then turns around and rails against George McClellan, Jefferson Davis, Joseph McCarthy, Robert Taft, etc. It is even more bizarre that he just can't grasp how thoroughly he discredits himself when he spews his anti-Semitic hatred and repeats Nazi lies about the Jews. It's just weird.

Hey, guy, recent poll. More Americans sympathize with Palestine than Israel. Don't pretend your pets are well-loved. They aren't.

So let's compare why Mao is admirable, while the Confederates were not.

Mao inherited a China that had been devastated for the previous 100 years by foreign invasions and warlords. The Chinese refer to this as 百年国耻 - The One Hundred Years of Humiliation. He fought the Japanese (when Chiang was perfectly willing to sit on his hands for much of 1943) and unified the country.

Now, because I'm open-minded, I realize that there were huge mistakes, like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. THere were also great strides. Under Mao, the barbaric practices of foot binding and polygamy were finally outlawed, the infant mortality rate declined by 90%, and the country went from 20% literacy to 70% literacy. (Simplifying the Hanzi writing system from 50,000 characters to a mere 8000 really helped.)

Now, compare that to the Confederate Shitheads. They essentially wanted to destroy the country so a few rich dickwads could keep owning slaves.

McClellen - sucked at being a general.

McCarthy- ruined innocent lives to advance his own career, to the point where even his fellow Republican had enough of his shit.

I don't think I've ever said anything about Robert Taft, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about him.

Anyway, moving on from JoeB131's ongoing nuttiness, I think it would be worthwhile to look at Frederick Douglass's entire statement about black Confederate combat troops.

Nope. He wasn't there. He wasn't on the front lines. He heard reports that were second and third hand. More importantly, he had his own agenda, which was to get the North to commit to ending slavery AND to use black troops in the war.

We should keep in mind that for years during WWII, the only evidence we had of the Holocaust was anecdotal evidence, but it was rightly considered solid, credible evidence by all rational, objective people who looked at it. Our evidence of black Confederate combat troops is not limited to anecdotal evidence but also includes official Union army battle reports that did not surface until after the war. And, as I've discussed, anecdotal evidence is often rightly viewed as solid and credible, especially when it corroborated by official documents.

Actually, they had plenty of evidence during the war. Survelience planes photographed the camps, etc.

But here's the thing. After the war, when the troops liberated the camps, there was no doubt about what happened. We got all the records the Nazis took when they were documenting what they did.


This whole controversy started way back when, when you had some Lost Cause apologists claiming that tens of thousands, or even over 100,000, blacks volunteered to fight for the Confederacy. When more careful, scholarly people in the Southern heritage camp looked at the evidence, they drastically reduced that figure down to around 10,000, give or take. Scott Williams, one of the more credible pro-Confederate authors, puts the figure at 13,000. I put the figure at no more than 7,000. Even 13,000 would be a small drop in the bucket compared to the size of the Confederate army, and especially compared to the 180,000 blacks who served as soldiers in the Union army.

Yes, yes, you can keep repeating your talking points, but as Levin points out, these stories about Black Confederates didn't start appearing until the 1970s, when the South was trying to downplay what a shit-show it was for black people.

There are two reasons why Black Confederates make about as much sense as Jewish Nazis

1) The whole reason why the South Broke away was that they were terrified of what blacks would do to them if they were ever freed. They wouldn't give them guns.

2) There was absolutely no good reason for a black man to fight for the South and their continued enslavement.
 
This subject highlights how polarized and partisan Civil War scholarship has become. Orthodox historians have actually won 90% of the debate, partly through no effort of their own. Neo-Confederate authors have long since corrected the earlier exorbitant claim that "tens of thousands" or even "hundreds of thousands" of blacks volunteered to fight for the Confederacy, lowering the figure to between 3,000 and 13,000. But, orthodox scholars insist that no more than a few dozen blacks willingly fought for the Confederacy, in spite of the clear evidence that the figure was in the thousands.

It is interesting that a number of orthodox scholars continue to cite and then knock down the strawman claim of tens/hundreds of thousands of black Confederate combat troops, when Southern heritage researchers have long since stopped making that claim and have drastically lowered the figure.

Finally, I repeat that we should keep in mind that for several years most of the evidence of the Holocaust was anecdotal evidence. The Wannsee Conference transcript was not found until 1947, and the transcript only provided evidence of a plan to kill Jews in large numbers--it contained no evidence that the plan was actually carried out. The discovery of the death camps did not immediately demonstrate the massive scale of the killings, especially since some of the camps had been dismantled and ploughed over, and since initial death-toll estimates understandably varied widely. Internal Nazi documents that pointed to a massive death toll were not all discovered at once but were found intermittently over time. By the 1960s, the evidence of the Holocaust was overwhelming and has only grown since then, but we should remember that for the first few years after the first reports of mass killings of Jews surfaced, most of the evidence was anecdotal evidence, and some of the American government officials who read the first accounts of the mass killings were skeptical of them.

Of course, as I've mentioned, we not only have solid anecdotal evidence of black Confederate soldiers, especially Steiner's detailed eyewitness account, but we have Union army reports that mention encounters with black Confederate combat troops.
 
After John Brown tried to raise an Army of slaves, the South was terrified of arming slaves. They had nightmares of slaves killing them in their sleep

An additional factor was that allowing slaves to fight alongside white soldiers would lead to a conclusion that slaves fight as good as whites do.

So how exactly would you arm slaves to fight for the Confederacy?
You can’t integrate units. The South fought against any integration for a hundred years
You can’t form segregated slave units because the South feared they would turn against the whites.

Why the claim that the South had armed slaves is Lost Cause BS
 
After John Brown tried to raise an Army of slaves, the South was terrified of arming slaves. They had nightmares of slaves killing them in their sleep.

An additional factor was that allowing slaves to fight alongside white soldiers would lead to a conclusion that slaves fight as good as whites do.

So how exactly would you arm slaves to fight for the Confederacy?
You can’t integrate units. The South fought against any integration for a hundred years
You can’t form segregated slave units because the South feared they would turn against the whites.

Why the claim that the South had armed slaves is Lost Cause BS
I take it you've read none or almost none of the replies in this thread, not to mention the article linked the OP.

I notice you didn't address a single item of evidence that I've documented in this thread and in my article. You just repeat the standard neo-Radical talking points about the South and black Confederate soldiers.
 
I take it you've read none or almost none of the replies in this thread, not to mention the article linked the OP.

I notice you didn't address a single item of evidence that I've documented in this thread and in my article. You just repeat the standard neo-Radical talking points about the South and black Confederate soldiers.
I saw you were posting Lost Cause nonsense and didn’t bother.

You claim “thousands” of slaves fought for the confederacy

Because of the telegraph, the Civil War was the most reported war in history. Yet you don’t have newspapers north or south reporting that slaves were fighting for the south.

Southern soldiers would have been outraged at having to fight alongside slaves and would have written home about it…but they didn’t.
Additionally, Southern newspapers would have been outraged by slaves bearing arms…..but nothing was said
 
I saw you were posting Lost Cause nonsense and didn’t bother.

You claim “thousands” of slaves fought for the confederacy

Because of the telegraph, the Civil War was the most reported war in history. Yet you don’t have newspapers north or south reporting that slaves were fighting for the south.

Southern soldiers would have been outraged at having to fight alongside slaves and would have written home about it…but they didn’t.
Additionally, Southern newspapers would have been outraged by slaves bearing arms…..but nothing was said
Why would democrats be outraged?
 
15th post
Yes, it is indeed odd how JoeB131 in one breath defends the mass murderer Mao Tse-Tung and praises Red China and then turns around and rails against George McClellan, Jefferson Davis, Joseph McCarthy, Robert Taft, etc. It is even more bizarre that he just can't grasp how thoroughly he discredits himself when he spews his anti-Semitic hatred and repeats Nazi lies about the Jews. It's just weird.

Anyway, moving on from JoeB131's ongoing nuttiness, I think it would be worthwhile to look at Frederick Douglass's entire statement about black Confederate combat troops. Some online neo-Radical apologists have claimed that Douglass was only referring to slaves who were serving in support roles, but Douglass made it clear that he distinguished between slaves serving in support roles and slaves who were serving as combat soldiers. Let's read his entire statement:

It is now pretty well established, that there are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may to destroy the Federal Government and build up that of the traitors and rebels. There were such soldiers at Manassas, and they are probably there still.

There is a Negro in the army as well as in the fence, and our Government is likely to find it out before the war comes to an end. That the Negroes are numerous in the rebel army, and do for that army its heaviest work, is beyond question. They have been the chief laborers upon those temporary defences in which the rebels have been able to mow down our men. Negroes helped to build the batteries at Charleston. They relieve their gentlemanly and military masters from the stiffening drudgery of the camp, and devote them to the nimble and dexterous use of arms. Rising above vulgar prejudice, the slaveholding rebel accepts the aid of the black man as readily as that of any other.

If a bad cause can do this, why should a good cause be less wisely conducted? We insist upon it, that one black regiment in such a war as this is, without being any more brave and orderly, would be worth to the Government more than two of any other; and that, while the Government continues to refuse the aid of colored men, thus alienating them from the national cause, and giving the rebels the advantage of them, it will not deserve better fortunes than it has thus far experienced.--Men in earnest don't fight with one hand, when they might fight with two, and a man drowning would not refuse to be saved even by a colored hand. ("Fighting Rebels with Only One Hand," Douglass' Monthly, September 1861, in Eric Foner, Give Me Liberty, Volume 3, pp. 153-154)


No rational person can read this and then argue that Douglass was merely referring to slaves who were serving as cooks and laborers.

We should keep in mind that for years during WWII, the only evidence we had of the Holocaust was anecdotal evidence, but it was rightly considered solid, credible evidence by all rational, objective people who looked at it. Our evidence of black Confederate combat troops is not limited to anecdotal evidence but also includes official Union army battle reports that did not surface until after the war. And, as I've discussed, anecdotal evidence is often rightly viewed as solid and credible, especially when it corroborated by official documents.

Of course, the biggest thorn in the side of the neo-Radical historians who deny that even a few thousand blacks voluntarily fought for the Confederacy is Lewis Steiner's detailed firsthand report of seeing some 3,000 black combat troops in Stonewall Jackson's army while it marched through Frederick, Maryland, in September 1862. Steiner was a highly educated man (in fact, he was an academic) and was staunchly anti-slavery and pro-Union, which is not surprising since he was a Republican. His two-page account of Jackson's black combat troops is contained in his sober 43-page report on his activities as the chief inspector of the U.S. Sanitary Commission for the U.S. Army of the Potomac.

The one and only argument that neo-Radical historians have made against Steiner's account is that it must be wrong because Steiner supposedly vastly overestimated the size of Lee's army (which included Jackson's force). But many scholars have pushed back against the traditional figure of 43,000 for the size of Lee's army, arguing that considerable evidence indicates it was much larger. Moreover, even if we assume that Steiner's estimate was off by a whopping 50%, that would still mean he saw about 1,500 black Confederate combat troops in Jackson's army.

Even this figure is wholly unacceptable to neo-Radical scholars, because they claim there were absolutely no more than perhaps two or three dozen such soldiers in the entire Confederate army and that these were informal, unofficial recruits who agreed to serve in their masters' units in exchange for freedom.

This whole controversy started way back when, when you had some Lost Cause apologists claiming that tens of thousands, or even over 100,000, blacks volunteered to fight for the Confederacy. When more careful, scholarly people in the Southern heritage camp looked at the evidence, they drastically reduced that figure down to around 10,000, give or take. Scott Williams, one of the more credible pro-Confederate authors, puts the figure at 13,000. I put the figure at no more than 7,000. Even 13,000 would be a small drop in the bucket compared to the size of the Confederate army, and especially compared to the 180,000 blacks who served as soldiers in the Union army.
That is a data driven report and very reasonable. Current democrats see the blacks as ignorant. At the time they were workers. In most cases well cared for workers. And when Lincoln invaded VA, they had no clue years later he would announce the emancipation proclamation. Even so, it did not free blacks still in the South since his orders were not lawful per the leaders of the South.
 
This subject highlights how polarized and partisan Civil War scholarship has become. Orthodox historians have actually won 90% of the debate, partly through no effort of their own. Neo-Confederate authors have long since corrected the earlier exorbitant claim that "tens of thousands" or even "hundreds of thousands" of blacks volunteered to fight for the Confederacy, lowering the figure to between 3,000 and 13,000. But, orthodox scholars insist that no more than a few dozen blacks willingly fought for the Confederacy, in spite of the clear evidence that the figure was in the thousands.

Except there was no evidence even that was true.

So let's talk about what this is really about. This is about the usual "Lost Cause" nonsense that slavery and the Confederacy weren't so bad.


It is interesting that a number of orthodox scholars continue to cite and then knock down the strawman claim of tens/hundreds of thousands of black Confederate combat troops, when Southern heritage researchers have long since stopped making that claim and have drastically lowered the figure.

Southern Heritage Researchers are spending their time keeping decent folks from tearing down their statues.

But the statues have to go. Every. Last. One.

Finally, I repeat that we should keep in mind that for several years most of the evidence of the Holocaust was anecdotal evidence. The Wannsee Conference transcript was not found until 1947, and the transcript only provided evidence of a plan to kill Jews in large numbers--it contained no evidence that the plan was actually carried out.

Man, what a load of garbage


Released in London, Moscow, and in multiple newspapers in the United States on December 17, 1942, the declaration bore the signatures of 11 Allied nations (the United States, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Belgium, Greece, and Yugoslavia, as well as the French National Committee). In the strongest possible language, it denounced the Nazi dictatorship for its “bestial policy of cold-blooded extermination.”https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/when-did-allies-know-holocaust#_edn1 For 21st-century eyes, the reference was clear. Unequivocally, the Allied powers condemned what later came to be termed the Holocaust.

Throughout 1942, a torrent of blood-curdling information about the mass murder of Jews reached the Allied capitals. Central to the exposure of these monumental crimes was Gerhart Riegner, a German Jew with a background in international law and head of the Geneva office of the Zionist organization, the World Jewish Congress.[v] From Switzerland, Riegner had amassed an enormous amount of detail in the summer of 1942 from a chain of contacts starting with German businessman Eduard Schulte. What Schulte, the managing director of a mining company, had gleaned from SS leader Heinrich Himmler about the murder of Jews in Auschwitz-Birkenau with the pesticide Zyklon B, he transmitted in late July 1942 to a Swiss Jewish investment banker, Isidor Koppelmann. Koppelmann disclosed the dreadful information to Benjamin Sagalowitz, a lawyer and journalist who worked for the Association of Swiss Jewish Communities, the chief representative organization for Jews in Switzerland. Then Koppelmann informed Riegner.
 
So let's talk about what this is really about. This is about the usual "Lost Cause" nonsense that slavery and the Confederacy weren't so bad.
How were your democrat confederates any different from George Washington?
 
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