Abraham Lincoln: Alternative History?

[bripat9643]

The first shots were fired before Lincoln ever stepped into office, numbnuts.

Fort Sumter wasn't until April 1861, moron.

Ya see. This is where you show how little, how very little you actually know about the war.

I've posted this many times for slower sorts such as yourself.

I'll keep reposting as many times as it takes to get through.

The first shots were fired in January of 1861.

Buchanan was President and he was trying to resupply Sumter.


Click to enlarge

The South fired upon the Union Steamship Star of the West

They took another ship and seized it: "The Marion."

Then converted her to a Man of War ship.
THE STEAMSHIP "MARION." ; SEIZED BY THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA TO BE CONVERTED INTO A MAN-OF-WAR.

Star of the West

Note the date on the Harpers Weekly newspaper: January, 1861, linked above.

==============


Further, another Timeline for you, from the SC Convention forward:

December 20, 1860: South Carolina convention passes ordinance of secession.
December 24, 1860: Mississippi Senator Jefferson Davis introduces a "compromise" proposal which would effectively make slavery a national institution.
December 26, 1860: Major Anderson moves Federal garrison in Charleston, SC, from Fort Moultrie to Fort Sumter.
January 3, 1861: Georgia seizes Fort Pulaski. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 4, 1861: Alabama seizes U.S. arsenal at Mount Vernon. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 5, 1861: Alabama seizes Forts Morgan and Gaines. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 6, 1861: Florida seizes Apalachicola arsenal. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE ARSENAL BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 7, 1861: Florida seizes Fort Marion. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 8, 1861: Floridians try to seize Fort Barrancas but are chased off.
January 9, 1861: Mississippi secedes.

Star of the West fired on in Charleston Harbor <-- FIRING ON A SHIP - A CLEAR ACT OF WAR
THE STEAMSHIP "MARION." SEIZED BY THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA TO BE CONVERTED INTO A MAN-OF-WAR.
January 10, 1861: Florida secedes.

Louisiana seizes U.S. arsenal at Baton Rouge, as well as Forts Jackson and St. Philip.
January 11, 1861: Alabama secedes.

Louisiana seizes U.S. Marine Hospital.
January 14, 1861: Louisiana seizes Fort Pike. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 19, 1861: Georgia secedes.
January 26, 1861: Louisiana secedes.
January 28, 1861: Tennessee Resolutions in favor of Crittenden Compromise offered in Congress.
February 1, 1861: Texas secedes.
February 8, 1861: Provisional Constitution of the Confederacy adopted in Montgomery, AL.

Arkansas seizes U.S. Arsenal at Little Rock.
February 12, 1861: Arkansas seizes U.S. ordnance stores at Napoleon.
February 18, 1861: Jefferson Davis inaugurated as President of the Confederacy.
March 4, 1861: Abraham Lincoln inaugurated as 16th President of the United States.
March 21, 1861: "Cornerstone speech" delivered by Alexander Stephens. (This is where the Confederate V President lays it out clearly: Slavery is the Cornerstone of the Confederacy.)

April 12, 1861: Fort Sumter fired upon by Confederates.
THE WAR OFFICIALLY BEGINS.

Firing on the Star of the West was not an act of war, just as firing on Ft Sumter was not an act of war. Precisely the opposite is the case. The Star of the West intruded into the territorial waters of SC and the garrison at Ft Sumter was occupying territory within SC. The federal government committed the act of war, not SC. The main difference here is that Buchannon was still president in the case of the first incident and he wasn't a warmongering asshole like Lincoln.

 

[Unkotare]

This revisionist wierdo has a serious mental problem when it comes to the traitorous Confederacy and their evil acts of treason.

 

[bripat9643]

This revisionist wierdo has a serious mental problem when it comes to the traitorous Confederacy and their evil acts of treason.

Trying to paint their critics as having mental problems is a typical Stalinist and liberal tactic. You appear to be a libturd. Notice that you're on the same side as paperview.

Stuff like the above is why I have a problem with a lot of so-called "conservatives." They claim to believe in freedom, but a lot of what they post indicates they believe in big government and compulsion.

 

[bripat9643]

The problem was after the war, we decided to let the South keep it's dignity, instead of treating it like a defeated nation that did something wrong.

There should have been massive war crimes trials for the Southern leaders and execution for treasons. Anyone who wore the Gray never should have been allowed the vote again.

No one would have been convicted of treason because secession doesn't fit the definition in the Constitution. That's a fact that Northern politicians simply didn't want to become obvious. Lincoln's invasion of the Southern states was illegal. Grant and Sherman should have been put on trial for war crimes.

You miss the point.

War Crime Trials are not because someone did something bad.

War Crime Trials are the winners punishing the losers. They are to let the losers know they are the winner's bitch.

The problem with the Civil War was that after we had defeated these utterly repulsive people, we didn't make them our bitches after the war. We should have hung Davis and Lee. We should have had a nuremburg like trial for them to utterly shame their memories.

It's what they did to the Nazis,and you only see the most disaffected freak wearing swastikas today.

You're forgetting something important: the people you want to put on trial were American citizens. That means any trial has to comport with the American Constitution, which defines treason thus:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."​

Secession doesn't fit the definition. However, Lincoln launching a military assault on the Southern states does fit the definition. Note the definition refers to the United States in the plural sense. Waging war against them (plural) is treason. In other words waging war against any state of the union is treason, which is precisely what Lincoln did.

If the federal government had trials for treason after the Civil War, then the entire Lincoln administration and the military would be in the docket, not the Confederates.

The reason no such trials occurred is the fact that all Union warmongering scumbags well understood the legal predicament they were in.

 

[Unkotare]

Notice that you're on the same side as paperview.

I notice that every time the traitorous, futile, evil Confederacy is brought up you lose your shit over a war that ended a long time ago and was never yours anyway. I notice you respond like some Pavlovian dog of historical revisionist insanity.

 

[bripat9643]

Notice that you're on the same side as paperview.

I notice that every time the traitorous, futile, evil Confederacy is brought up you lose your shit over a war that ended a long time ago and was never yours anyway. I notice you respond like some Pavlovian dog of historical revisionist insanity.

The Confederacy wasn't traitorous, as I just proved. It was no more evil than the union where slavery was still in force then the Civil War started.

As usual, what you posted is horse manure. That's because you're a dumbass.

I'm not "losing my shit" over anything. I'm simply trying to correct the record. You are the one who seems to be losing your shit. You can't discuss the matter without threatening your critics with imprisonment and death or accusing them of having mental problems. That's the sure sign of a fascist.

 

[paperview]

I'm so glad he's one of yours, connies.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Fort Sumter wasn't until April 1861, moron.

Ya see. This is where you show how little, how very little you actually know about the war.

I've posted this many times for slower sorts such as yourself.

I'll keep reposting as many times as it takes to get through.

The first shots were fired in January of 1861.

Buchanan was President and he was trying to resupply Sumter.


Click to enlarge

The South fired upon the Union Steamship Star of the West

They took another ship and seized it: "The Marion."

Then converted her to a Man of War ship.
THE STEAMSHIP "MARION." ; SEIZED BY THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA TO BE CONVERTED INTO A MAN-OF-WAR.

Star of the West

Note the date on the Harpers Weekly newspaper: January, 1861, linked above.

==============


Further, another Timeline for you, from the SC Convention forward:

December 20, 1860: South Carolina convention passes ordinance of secession.
December 24, 1860: Mississippi Senator Jefferson Davis introduces a "compromise" proposal which would effectively make slavery a national institution.
December 26, 1860: Major Anderson moves Federal garrison in Charleston, SC, from Fort Moultrie to Fort Sumter.
January 3, 1861: Georgia seizes Fort Pulaski. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 4, 1861: Alabama seizes U.S. arsenal at Mount Vernon. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 5, 1861: Alabama seizes Forts Morgan and Gaines. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 6, 1861: Florida seizes Apalachicola arsenal. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE ARSENAL BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 7, 1861: Florida seizes Fort Marion. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 8, 1861: Floridians try to seize Fort Barrancas but are chased off.
January 9, 1861: Mississippi secedes.

Star of the West fired on in Charleston Harbor <-- FIRING ON A SHIP - A CLEAR ACT OF WAR
THE STEAMSHIP "MARION." SEIZED BY THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA TO BE CONVERTED INTO A MAN-OF-WAR.
January 10, 1861: Florida secedes.

Louisiana seizes U.S. arsenal at Baton Rouge, as well as Forts Jackson and St. Philip.
January 11, 1861: Alabama secedes.

Louisiana seizes U.S. Marine Hospital.
January 14, 1861: Louisiana seizes Fort Pike. <---NOTE: THEY SEIZED THE FORT BEFORE THEY SECEDED.
January 19, 1861: Georgia secedes.
January 26, 1861: Louisiana secedes.
January 28, 1861: Tennessee Resolutions in favor of Crittenden Compromise offered in Congress.
February 1, 1861: Texas secedes.
February 8, 1861: Provisional Constitution of the Confederacy adopted in Montgomery, AL.

Arkansas seizes U.S. Arsenal at Little Rock.
February 12, 1861: Arkansas seizes U.S. ordnance stores at Napoleon.
February 18, 1861: Jefferson Davis inaugurated as President of the Confederacy.
March 4, 1861: Abraham Lincoln inaugurated as 16th President of the United States.
March 21, 1861: "Cornerstone speech" delivered by Alexander Stephens. (This is where the Confederate V President lays it out clearly: Slavery is the Cornerstone of the Confederacy.)

April 12, 1861: Fort Sumter fired upon by Confederates.
THE WAR OFFICIALLY BEGINS.

Firing on the Star of the West was not an act of war, just as firing on Ft Sumter was not an act of war. Precisely the opposite is the case. The Star of the West intruded into the territorial waters of SC and the garrison at Ft Sumter was occupying territory within SC. The federal government committed the act of war, not SC. The main difference here is that Buchannon was still president in the case of the first incident and he wasn't a warmongering asshole like Lincoln.

when a self-proclaimed 'seceded' governmental entity fires on national troops, yup, it's an act of war.

The Union was corrected in 'executing' SC and forcing it to "resurrect" through reconstruction.

Anyone who defends SC's military action is a warmongering asshole.

 

[JakeStarkey]

This revisionist wierdo has a serious mental problem when it comes to the traitorous Confederacy and their evil acts of treason.

Trying to paint their critics as having mental problems is a typical Stalinist and liberal tactic. You appear to be a libturd. Notice that you're on the same side as paperview.

Stuff like the above is why I have a problem with a lot of so-called "conservatives." They claim to believe in freedom, but a lot of what they post indicates they believe in big government and compulsion.

Your opinion here, as an anarchist and as yourself based on your posting, puts you out in weirdo land.

Yes, you have lost your shit, bripat, there is no record to correct, and you can now goose step off.

 

[bripat9643]

This revisionist wierdo has a serious mental problem when it comes to the traitorous Confederacy and their evil acts of treason.

Trying to paint their critics as having mental problems is a typical Stalinist and liberal tactic. You appear to be a libturd. Notice that you're on the same side as paperview.

Stuff like the above is why I have a problem with a lot of so-called "conservatives." They claim to believe in freedom, but a lot of what they post indicates they believe in big government and compulsion.

Your opinion here, as an anarchist and as yourself based on your posting, puts you out in weirdo land.

Yes, you have lost your shit, bripat, there is no record to correct, and you can now goose step off.

Have you noticed any problems with your muscle control? That's another symptom of dementia. Towards the final stages you'll find you aren't able even to walk. You'll also crap all over yourself because you lose control of your bowels. I truly sympathize with what you're going through, Fakey. My wife works with the elderly, and she tells me stories about people with dementia that make me cringe.

God have mercy on your soul.

 

[bripat9643]

I'm so glad he's one of yours, connies.

No you aren't. You're just a big pussy who doesn't want to take a beating.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Trying to paint their critics as having mental problems is a typical Stalinist and liberal tactic. You appear to be a libturd. Notice that you're on the same side as paperview.

Stuff like the above is why I have a problem with a lot of so-called "conservatives." They claim to believe in freedom, but a lot of what they post indicates they believe in big government and compulsion.

Your opinion here, as an anarchist and as yourself based on your posting, puts you out in weirdo land.

Yes, you have lost your shit, bripat, there is no record to correct, and you can now goose step off.

Have you noticed any problems with your muscle control? That's another symptom of dementia. Towards the final stages you'll find you aren't able even to walk. You'll also crap all over yourself because you lose control of your bowels. I truly sympathize with what you're going through, Fakey. My wife works with the elderly, and she tells me stories about people with dementia that make me cringe.

God have mercy on your soul.

Ask your wife about self projection, son. How sad for you that you are entering dementia early in your life, but, realizing what you post, there is no surprise.

Sad for you. Is that why you are not allowed to fly helicopters anymore?

 

[Unkotare]

Notice that you're on the same side as paperview.

I notice that every time the traitorous, futile, evil Confederacy is brought up you lose your shit over a war that ended a long time ago and was never yours anyway. I notice you respond like some Pavlovian dog of historical revisionist insanity.

The Confederacy wasn't traitorous, as I just proved.

Constant repetition of the revisionist nonsense you want to believe isn't "proof" of anything other than that you seem to think that by such repetition alone you can alter reality itself. That is a sign of insanity.

 

[Unkotare]

I'm not "losing my shit" over anything. .

Oh no, of course not. Everyone can see that.........

 

[Unkotare]

I'm so glad he's one of yours, connies.

Don't blame conservatism for his unbalanced state. Hysterical, impotent, revisionist fury isn't a political position.

 

[bripat9643]

your opinion here, as an anarchist and as yourself based on your posting, puts you out in weirdo land.

Yes, you have lost your shit, bripat, there is no record to correct, and you can now goose step off.

have you noticed any problems with your muscle control? That's another symptom of dementia. Towards the final stages you'll find you aren't able even to walk. You'll also crap all over yourself because you lose control of your bowels. I truly sympathize with what you're going through, fakey. My wife works with the elderly, and she tells me stories about people with dementia that make me cringe.

God have mercy on your soul.

ask your wife about self projection, son. How sad for you that you are entering dementia early in your life, but, realizing what you post, there is no surprise.

Sad for you. Is that why you are not allowed to fly helicopters anymore?

weak!

 

[JoeB131]

[

You're forgetting something important: the people you want to put on trial were American citizens. That means any trial has to comport with the American Constitution, which defines treason thus:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."​

No, guy, I didn't FORGET. I just don't fucking care. After we've hung the bitches, they can complain to history. These were scumwads who betrayed their country to support a human rights violation. We should make their graves into public commodes.

If the federal government had trials for treason after the Civil War, then the entire Lincoln administration and the military would be in the docket, not the Confederates.

The reason no such trials occurred is the fact that all Union warmongering scumbags well understood the legal predicament they were in.

No, the reason they did was because a weasel turncoat replaced the Sainted Lincoln.

These Confederate shitstains should have been tried for treason.

 

[bripat9643]

You're forgetting something important: the people you want to put on trial were American citizens. That means any trial has to comport with the American Constitution, which defines treason thus:

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."​

No, guy, I didn't FORGET. I just don't fucking care. After we've hung the bitches, they can complain to history. These were scumwads who betrayed their country to support a human rights violation. We should make their graves into public commodes.

Thanks for admitting that, Joe. Thanks for admitting that you don't give a rat's ass about the Constitution, justice or any principle of a decent civilization. You're just a brutal thug out for revenge against people who didn't do a thing to you.

You admitted you're a piece of shit. You saved us all the trouble of debating the issue any further.

If the federal government had trials for treason after the Civil War, then the entire Lincoln administration and the military would be in the docket, not the Confederates.

The reason no such trials occurred is the fact that all Union warmongering scumbags well understood the legal predicament they were in.

No, the reason they did was because a weasel turncoat replaced the Sainted Lincoln.

These Confederate shitstains should have been tried for treason.[/QUOTE]

Nope. They knew they couldn't make the charges stick. That's because no one in the Confederacy committed treason according to the definition in the Constitution. Obviously, even you know that. Otherwise you wouldn't have admitted that you don't care what the Constitution says.

Lincoln and his generals, on the other hand, committed offense too numerous to list here. They should have been tried for war crimes.

 

[bripat9643]

Your opinion here, as an anarchist and as yourself based on your posting, puts you out in weirdo land.

Yes, you have lost your shit, bripat, there is no record to correct, and you can now goose step off.

Have you noticed any problems with your muscle control? That's another symptom of dementia. Towards the final stages you'll find you aren't able even to walk. You'll also crap all over yourself because you lose control of your bowels. I truly sympathize with what you're going through, Fakey. My wife works with the elderly, and she tells me stories about people with dementia that make me cringe.

God have mercy on your soul.

Ask your wife about self projection, son. How sad for you that you are entering dementia early in your life, but, realizing what you post, there is no surprise.

Sad for you. Is that why you are not allowed to fly helicopters anymore?

I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Try to make-up your own insults, Fakey. It's pathetic when you parrot mine.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Thanks for admitting that, Joe. Thanks for admitting that you don't give a rat's ass about the Constitution, justice or any principle of a decent civilization. You're just a brutal thug out for revenge against people who didn't do a thing to you.

You admitted you're a piece of shit. You saved us all the trouble of debating the issue any further.

Guy, Lee and Davis and every other Traitor fought a war that killed 600,000, so a few rich white people could keep owning slaves. Justice would have been doing to them what they did to the Nazis at Nuremburg. INcidently, I think the Nuremburg and Tokyo trials were kangeroo courts as well. I just can't work up sympathy for the scumwads who ended up on the ends of ropes there.

A decent civilization never would have had slavery from the get go.

[

Nope. They knew they couldn't make the charges stick. That's because no one in the Confederacy committed treason according to the definition in the Constitution. Obviously, even you know that. Otherwise you wouldn't have admitted that you don't care what the Constitution says.

Lincoln and his generals, on the other hand, committed offense too numerous to list here. They should have been tried for war crimes.

Actually, they'd have had no problem making the charges stick.

The juries would be made up entirely of Union Soldiers who got limbs sawn off during the war.

The real problem was that a lot of people after the war just wanted to put the whole thing behind them without any real reckoning for those who started it. That is always a mistake. You ALWAYS try the losers after a war. You ALWAYS let their people know they did bad.