Abraham Lincoln: Alternative History?

[oldfart]

What if he had merely demanded the return of Federal property and compensation for any damage, rather than calling for an invasion?

Lincoln called for no invasion. He only required that slavery remain in the Old South, the return of federal properties, and the acceptance of constitutional and electoral process.

Warms my heart that somebody has actually read the First Inaugural Address.

 

[gipper]

What if he had merely demanded the return of Federal property and compensation for any damage, rather than calling for an invasion?

Lincoln called for no invasion. He only required that slavery remain in the Old South, the return of federal properties, and the acceptance of constitutional and electoral process.

Warms my heart that somebody has actually read the First Inaugural Address.

So...Lincoln threatening the South with war, which he did in his first inaugural if they refused to pay taxes to the Federal government, is okay with you.

 

[paperview]

What if he had merely demanded the return of Federal property and compensation for any damage, rather than calling for an invasion?

Lincoln called for no invasion. He only required that slavery remain in the Old South, the return of federal properties, and the acceptance of constitutional and electoral process.

Warms my heart that somebody has actually read the First Inaugural Address.

So...Lincoln threatening the South with war, which he did in his first inaugural if they refused to pay taxes to the Federal government, is okay with you.

The South committed Acts of War and opened fire before Lincoln ever stepped foot in office.

 

[regent]

Lincoln was a threat to the South's way of life and if assination didn't work then war might. I still cannot really understand why all those poor southernors would give their life to maintain that way of life that, to me, was only great for the wealthy. Are people just that easily led?

 

[gipper]

Warms my heart that somebody has actually read the First Inaugural Address.

So...Lincoln threatening the South with war, which he did in his first inaugural if they refused to pay taxes to the Federal government, is okay with you.

The South committed Acts of War and opened fire before Lincoln ever stepped foot in office.

Lincoln fought an aggressive war against fellow Americans because they refused to submit to his will. It has been well documented that he set up events at Ft Sumter to get the party started. He then invaded the South causing the deaths of 850,000 Americans and near complete destruction of the southern states. For these heinous and unconstitutional acts he is revered...when he should be condemned.

What Lincoln did was treason and he should have been impeached.

Sadly since Lincoln broke the mold, we have had to endure many tyrannical presidents including the one in the WH now.

A big centralized unlimited government was never the intention of our Founders, but that is exactly what we have and it all started with Dishonest Abe.

 

[paperview]

The "party" started long before Lincoln stepped into office. The South was determined to protect their beloved institution of owning humans and nothing was going to stop their protection of the right to own human beings and their plan to expand it.

End of story and you dork-headed neo-confederate revisionists wouldn't even be here today had Lincoln not fought to keep the Union together -- to make this Country the great one it is today.

Put that in your smoke and pipe it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

What if the Trent Affair (US boarding a British Warship) let to the British and French intervening on the South's side. The Confederates were lobbying the British hard for them to intervene. They promised them the moon and the stars once they won. The French wanted to intervene to protect their trade, but were too weak to do it without the British. If the British and French landed troops in the States, the Confederates surely would have won the war.

What would America have looked like if that happened? When would slavery have ended?

My guess is slavery would have continued for 20-30 more years and would have been squashed out near the turn of the century!

The British and French would have controlled the seas, recognized the South, and kept the South armed and fed.

There would have been two American nations.

Read Turtledove's what-if novels on that scenario.

 

[JakeStarkey]

What if he had merely demanded the return of Federal property and compensation for any damage, rather than calling for an invasion?

Lincoln called for no invasion. He only required that slavery remain in the Old South, the return of federal properties, and the acceptance of constitutional and electoral process.

Warms my heart that somebody has actually read the First Inaugural Address.

So...Lincoln threatening the South with war, which he did in his first inaugural if they refused to pay taxes to the Federal government, is okay with you.

He said war would come if the South insisted on it.

The Old South states did and were executed for it.

 

[regent]

What if the Trent Affair (US boarding a British Warship) let to the British and French intervening on the South's side. The Confederates were lobbying the British hard for them to intervene. They promised them the moon and the stars once they won. The French wanted to intervene to protect their trade, but were too weak to do it without the British. If the British and French landed troops in the States, the Confederates surely would have won the war.

What would America have looked like if that happened? When would slavery have ended?

My guess is slavery would have continued for 20-30 more years and would have been squashed out near the turn of the century!

The British and French would have controlled the seas, recognized the South, and kept the South armed and fed.

There would have been two American nations.

Read Turtledove's what-if novels on that scenario.

Lincoln's strategy was to keep England out of the war and to do that he would issue the Emancipation Proclamation. But Lincoln reasoned that he could not issue the procalmation as a losing gesture, he needed a victory before issuance. The victory was Antietam, then came the issuance and England would not enter the war.

 

[GHook93]

The thing is, a few rich people got a lot of dumb poor white people to fight so they'd have a right to keep raping their slaves.

The profound stupidity of it all is mind-boggling.

At least the Germans have the good sense to be ashamed of what the Nazis did.

Do you really think white Americans aren't ashamed of slavery?

 

[Steven_R]

What if the Trent Affair (US boarding a British Warship) let to the British and French intervening on the South's side. The Confederates were lobbying the British hard for them to intervene. They promised them the moon and the stars once they won. The French wanted to intervene to protect their trade, but were too weak to do it without the British. If the British and French landed troops in the States, the Confederates surely would have won the war.

What would America have looked like if that happened? When would slavery have ended?

My guess is slavery would have continued for 20-30 more years and would have been squashed out near the turn of the century!

British involvement was never going to happen. Nevermind that the US was England's biggest trading partner before the war, the British had just spent 30 years trying to eradicate slavery. Short of issuing emancipation and then declaring independence, there was no way the South was every going to get formal recognition much less overt assistance from England. The Trent Affair mucked up issues between the US and UK a bit, but not enough to get Whitehall to do anything like kick Washington to the curb in favor of Richmond.

 

[GHook93]

What if the Trent Affair (US boarding a British Warship) let to the British and French intervening on the South's side. The Confederates were lobbying the British hard for them to intervene. They promised them the moon and the stars once they won. The French wanted to intervene to protect their trade, but were too weak to do it without the British. If the British and French landed troops in the States, the Confederates surely would have won the war.

What would America have looked like if that happened? When would slavery have ended?

My guess is slavery would have continued for 20-30 more years and would have been squashed out near the turn of the century!

The British and French would have controlled the seas, recognized the South, and kept the South armed and fed.

There would have been two American nations.

Read Turtledove's what-if novels on that scenario.

Not so sure about that. The South was doing alright up until Gettysburg. If the South would have won at Gettysburg and then the British and French entered the war on the South's side, the North would have fallen.

These are what if scenarios and thank god the North won and the British and French stayed out of our civil war. Maybe the US should take note next time we decide to enter another countries civil war.

 

[Steven_R]

What if the Trent Affair (US boarding a British Warship) let to the British and French intervening on the South's side. The Confederates were lobbying the British hard for them to intervene. They promised them the moon and the stars once they won. The French wanted to intervene to protect their trade, but were too weak to do it without the British. If the British and French landed troops in the States, the Confederates surely would have won the war.

What would America have looked like if that happened? When would slavery have ended?

My guess is slavery would have continued for 20-30 more years and would have been squashed out near the turn of the century!

The British and French would have controlled the seas, recognized the South, and kept the South armed and fed.

There would have been two American nations.

Read Turtledove's what-if novels on that scenario.

Not so sure about that. The South was doing alright up until Gettysburg. If the South would have won at Gettysburg and then the British and French entered the war on the South's side, the North would have fallen.

These are what if scenarios and thank god the North won and the British and French stayed out of our civil war. Maybe the US should take note next time we decide to enter another countries civil war.

Hardly. The Eastern front may have the headlines, but the war was being won in the west, just like Winfield Scott said it would. Remember, the day after Gettysburg, Vicksburg fell to Grant and the South was physically cut in half.

The Anaconda Plan was working in 1863 and both the British and French generals knew it. The only hope the South had at that point was to drag the war out for another year and a half and hope the American voters at the 1864 elections were stupid enough to think the war couldn't be won.

 

[paperview]

The South never stood a chance. They were outmanned, outgunned, out-infrastructured, out-everythinged....out of all possibility of winning.

It wasn't a matter of if, it was a matter of when.

 

[JoeB131]

The thing is, a few rich people got a lot of dumb poor white people to fight so they'd have a right to keep raping their slaves.

The profound stupidity of it all is mind-boggling.

At least the Germans have the good sense to be ashamed of what the Nazis did.

Do you really think white Americans aren't ashamed of slavery?

I think a lot of them aren't, or have been disassociative.

"I never owned a slave, so why should I feel guilty about that?"

Can't tell you how many times I've heard white folks say that.

 

[Steven_R]

I'm not sure it's dissociative so much as it is so far removed that it is a historical curiosity. I feel bad slavery ever existed, but it was over a century before I was born. I didn't do it, so why should I feel responsible? If I'm responsible for the crimes of people long dead, am I also not equally deserving of thanks for stopping slavery? I might not have carried a rifle and wore a blue uniform, but my ancestors did, so where is the gratitude to go alone with the guilt?

And that's before we even get into Spike Lees and Oprahs of the world who keep picking at that scab and calling me a racist.

 

[oldfart]

What if he had merely demanded the return of Federal property and compensation for any damage, rather than calling for an invasion?

Lincoln called for no invasion. He only required that slavery remain in the Old South, the return of federal properties, and the acceptance of constitutional and electoral process.

Warms my heart that somebody has actually read the First Inaugural Address.

So...Lincoln threatening the South with war, which he did in his first inaugural if they refused to pay taxes to the Federal government, is okay with you.

I see no evidence you have read the First Inaugural. In 1860 federal revenue came from land sales of Western land and the tariff. The federal government levied no tax upon the states.

And Lincoln did not threaten war. He explicitly stated that the federal government would not disturb any citizen in their homes or farms; that any violence must be first initiated by the South itself.

 

[gipper]

Warms my heart that somebody has actually read the First Inaugural Address.

So...Lincoln threatening the South with war, which he did in his first inaugural if they refused to pay taxes to the Federal government, is okay with you.

I see no evidence you have read the First Inaugural. In 1860 federal revenue came from land sales of Western land and the tariff. The federal government levied no tax upon the states.

And Lincoln did not threaten war. He explicitly stated that the federal government would not disturb any citizen in their homes or farms; that any violence must be first initiated by the South itself.

It is apparent you did not read or comprehend Lincoln's first inaugural. He said this...

In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere.

I have pointed this out to you in other threads...which apparently you failed to comprehend or refused to accept the truth.

He clearly states no war UNLESS the seceding states fail to pay Uncle Sam.

The South clearly understood his meaning. He meant to kill them and destroy their property if they refused to pay him what he demanded. This is exactly what he did and for this, he committed treason and should have been impeached.

See the Morrill Tariff should you wish to inform yourself on this issue.

War is nearly ALWAYS:
1. A failure of leadership and;
2. Is promoted and executed by the power elite for nefarious reasons that usually include enriching the State and themselves.

The War of Northern Aggression (more aptly named The War of Lincoln's Aggression) was no exception.

 

[JoeB131]

Boy, Wingnuts seem to have an awful lot of sympathy for Slave Rapist.

Oh, someone took away their right to rape their slaves! Bad old Lincoln!

 

[editec]

So...Lincoln threatening the South with war, which he did in his first inaugural if they refused to pay taxes to the Federal government, is okay with you.

The South committed Acts of War and opened fire before Lincoln ever stepped foot in office.

Lincoln fought an aggressive war against fellow Americans because they refused to submit to his will. It has been well documented that he set up events at Ft Sumter to get the party started. He then invaded the South causing the deaths of 850,000 Americans and near complete destruction of the southern states. For these heinous and unconstitutional acts he is revered...when he should be condemned.

What Lincoln did was treason and he should have been impeached.

Sadly since Lincoln broke the mold, we have had to endure many tyrannical presidents including the one in the WH now.

A big centralized unlimited government was never the intention of our Founders, but that is exactly what we have and it all started with Dishonest Abe.

This is what is meant by BIG FAT LIAR.

Either this nitwit doesn't know his nation's historuy (likely) or he's just going to post whatever drivel he can make up to prove his point (also likely)

Either way he does not know shit about this history.

LAD lincoln was not in office when the fray started.

READ A FUCKING BOOK, lad!