A message to LGBT: Your alliance with the abortion lobby is no longer useful to you, dump it

[Blackrook]

I don't think you're any friend of LGBT people. Just an anti-choice fanatic.

If you understood how wrong abortion is, you would feel the same way I do.

I'm not a big fan of abortion, but I don't think someone else's body is my business.

They said the same thing about slavery, said it was not my business if someone else owned a slave, and about segregation, it was not my business if I didn't send my children to a segregated school, and that argument works for a very long time, until people finally grow sick of the injustice, and intervene in business that is not strictly their own.

 

[Blackrook]

The common thread here is a struggle for increased respect for human rights for all of society's members. What we have now is a society where the strong prey on the weak. It's barbaric.

May I ask... Given the recent Trump incident, i'm curious. Since you believe abortion is murder, do you think that the women who abort should be punished for murder? Doctors and others charge with accomplice to murder?

It would be enough to punish the doctor, by suspending his medical license for one year on a first offense, suspending it permanently on a second offense, and giving him prison time for any offenses after that, up to a life sentence if he continues to break the law.

I know that's not the answer you were looking for, but this is not about revenge for me, it's about protecting human life. I understand that a woman who has an abortion does not have the same mens rea as a woman who kills her infant or child after it is born. Prior to birth, the maternal instinct has not yet kicked in all the way, otherwise no woman would ever have an abortion.

The way to stop abortion is to allow women to see their baby in utero through an ultra-sound. What I've been told is that very few women will have an abortion after seeing their baby in the womb. I know people who run a clinic to do just that, and every year I attend a fundraising dinner for that clinic. I even represented the clinic pro bono when it first was founded, and was threatened with a lawsuit by the abortion clinic a few blocks away.

I wasn't phishing for an answer or trying to "get ya", I'm genuinely curious... I haven't been able to understand the argument... if you truly believe that life begins at conception then how can you not support a murder charge for all involved? Anything less, like suspending the doctor and do nothing to the woman, contradicts your claim of abortion being murder or a fertilized egg/fetus a real life.

 

[Dhara]

I don't think you're any friend of LGBT people. Just an anti-choice fanatic.

If you understood how wrong abortion is, you would feel the same way I do.

I'm not a big fan of abortion, but I don't think someone else's body is my business.

They said the same thing about slavery, said it was not my business if someone else owned a slave, and about segregation, it was not my business if I didn't send my children to a segregated school, and that argument works for a very long time, until people finally grow sick of the injustice, and intervene in business that is not strictly their own.

I"m sorry but you and I don't get to force pregnant women to carry their pregnancies to term at gunpoint.

 

[Dhara]

Would I prefer there were ONLY wanted babies born and few abortions? Of course. No contraception is 100% fail proof. And you and I don't get to tell other people to stop having sex. I mean we can, but we don't get to police people's bedrooms.

 

[Dhara]

I suppose you think it's better for women to just have as many babies as they're physically capable of.

 

[Blackrook]

Slade3200 and Dhara, I'm going to answer both your questions in one post, because you both basically asking the same question, which is, "To what end do we outlaw abortion?"

The answer is, that the law demonstrates societal disapproval for an activity, but it does not stop it altogether.

Slavery is illegal in almost every country in the world, but yet slavery still exists. The reason slavery is illegal is because it is immoral, not because the law can prevent it 100% of the time. The fact is, there are still millions of slaves, working in brothels, factories, on plantations, etc. And more needs to be done about it.

The reason abortion should be illegal is because it is like slavery, the denial of one human being's rights to benefit the interests of a stronger human being, or one who has more financial and political power.

Women may consider themselves less powerful than men, but they are far more powerful than the unborn children they carry in their womb. One of the motivations of the feminist movement in supporting abortion is to give women more power in a relationship over a man, by giving her the power to kill his child, with him having no legal recourse.

I have actually had a friend who was blackmailed into a very bad marriage by a woman who threatened to abort his child. We all wondered why he was entering into an obviously doomed marriage with a woman we all knew was wicked, but he kept it a secret that she was pregnant with his child and threatening to have an abortion. So basically, my friend's life was ruined by legalized abortion, and she ended up cheating on him, and they divorced, and she took a lot of his money.

Women should not have this power to decide that someone else, another human being, may live or die on her whim, for any reason, or no reason at all. For the law to allow this makes the law a party to blackmail and murder.

If abortion is illegal, some women will still have abortions, but the society's official position will be that abortion is wrong, and women who blackmail their husbands or boyfriends with the threat of an abortion could be punished for simply making that threat. Right now, it is perfectly legal for a woman to make that threat, and extract any promise from a man to save the life of his child. No one should be forced into a bad marriage to save the life of his child, but right now the law is helpless to stop this.

 

[Dhara]

A lot of men, it turns out, get off on having power over women’s bodies, and are willing to bully, coerce, and even trick women into pregnancy to get that feeling of power over them. And anti-choicers are helping them maintain control.

Stoeffel references a recent study by Dr. Lindsay Clark of the Women and Infants Hospital in Providence, Rhode Island, where 641 women who received routine care were asked if they had been threatened or bullied by their partners into getting pregnant or had even had their partners mess with their contraception, by hiding pills or poking holes in condoms. A shocking 16 percent had experienced such abuse, a number which reflects other, still preliminary studies that show a widespread problem of men trying to force pregnancy on unwilling partners. The problem is both so common and so hidden that the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists is recommending that doctors screen for reproductive coercion in addition to more traditional screening for domestic violence.
Reproductive Coercion: A Widespread Form of Domestic Violence Supported by Anti-Choice Legislation - Rewire

 

[Blackrook]

And the reason slavery must be illegal, even though it exists, is to avoid bringing law-abiding citizens into the slave trade, or forcing them to witness it, for there would be slave auctions, publicly held in public halls, publicly advertised on TV and the internet, and all of us would be tainted by this mere association with slavery.

 

[Dhara]

Forced pregnancy with no way out is slavery too. It's a misuse of women's bodies.

 

[Blackrook]

A lot of men, it turns out, get off on having power over women’s bodies, and are willing to bully, coerce, and even trick women into pregnancy to get that feeling of power over them. And anti-choicers are helping them maintain control.

Stoeffel references a recent study by Dr. Lindsay Clark of the Women and Infants Hospital in Providence, Rhode Island, where 641 women who received routine care were asked if they had been threatened or bullied by their partners into getting pregnant or had even had their partners mess with their contraception, by hiding pills or poking holes in condoms. A shocking 16 percent had experienced such abuse, a number which reflects other, still preliminary studies that show a widespread problem of men trying to force pregnancy on unwilling partners. The problem is both so common and so hidden that the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists is recommending that doctors screen for reproductive coercion in addition to more traditional screening for domestic violence.
Reproductive Coercion: A Widespread Form of Domestic Violence Supported by Anti-Choice Legislation - Rewire

I get it, all men are rapists, even men who just want to have a baby with the woman they love.

Moving on, because this is not the issue of the thread.

 

[Dhara]

Reproductive coercion is wrong. That's what you favor Blackrook.

 

[Dhara]

Men should ALWAYS control women's bodies.

 

[Dhara]

When forcing a woman to get pregnant becomes a crime Blackrook, talk to me about limiting abortions again.

 

[Blackrook]

Forced pregnancy with no way out is slavery too. It's a misuse of women's bodies.

The only way that argument works is if the woman was raped, but that is a very rare reason for abortion. Almost always, abortion is for convenience.

I talked to a woman who worked at the abortion alternatives clinic I mentioned earlier. A woman came in who was engaged to be married. She got an ultrasound, and found out she was pregnant. She told my friend that she would go have an abortion so she would fit into her wedding dress.

Later she came back, and she was married this time. Once again, she was pregnant, and she decided to keep the baby, because she no longer had a wedding to plan, and a wedding dress to fit in.

This story is typical and happens every day.

 

[Dhara]

Unfortunately, the women who experience reproductive coercion aren’t necessarily the only example of Americans who are forced to be pregnant against their will.

Record-breaking numbers of state-level abortion restrictions have created a world in which many women must carry an unwanted pregnancy for longer than they would prefer. For instance, even though nearly 90 percent of women are “highly confident” about their desire to have an abortion when they first approach a doctor, 26 states require them to wait at least 24 hours before having the procedure anyway. In South Dakota, that wait can stretch on for up to six days.

And low-income women, who typically have to delay having an abortion while they save up the money for it, often run out of time and go on to have unintended births. The women who end up giving birth against their will are more likely to slip deeper into poverty and struggle with long-term mental health issues.
Forcing A Woman To Get Pregnant Isn’t A Crime, But Domestic Violence Experts Want To Change That

 

[Blackrook]

When forcing a woman to get pregnant becomes a crime Blackrook, talk to me about limiting abortions again.

I can see where this is going, and I'm probably going to end up putting you on ignore. The combination of your laughing face avatar, and the sheer jackassery of your posts, is combining to piss me off.

 

[Dhara]

Forced pregnancy with no way out is slavery too. It's a misuse of women's bodies.

The only way that argument works is if the woman was raped, but that is a very rare reason for abortion. Almost always, abortion is for convenience.

I talked to a woman who worked at the abortion alternatives clinic I mentioned earlier. A woman came in who was engaged to be married. She got an ultrasound, and found out she was pregnant. She told my friend that she would go have an abortion so she would fit into her wedding dress.

Later she came back, and she was married this time. Once again, she was pregnant, and she decided to keep the baby, because she no longer had a wedding to plan, and a wedding dress to fit in.

This story is typical and happens every day.

You don't get it. Domestic violence perpetrators deliberately sabotage contraception to control women. Keep them "barefoot and pregnant". YOU want just that level of control over women and

THEY WON'T PUT UP WITH THAT.

 

[Dhara]

When forcing a woman to get pregnant becomes a crime Blackrook, talk to me about limiting abortions again.

I can see where this is going, and I'm probably going to end up putting you on ignore. The combination of your laughing face avatar, and the sheer jackassery of your posts, is combining to piss me off.

A laughing child and a smart argument leads to ignore with you? No problem.

 

[Dhara]

Ignore me. I've poked holes in your argument and you can't stand it.

 

[Blackrook]

If you want to throw men into prison for fathering children then you're going to have to release all the real criminals to make room for them.

In my opinion, fatherhood is the highest aspiration a man can achieve, and raising children to be good adults is far more important than anything a man does during his career, even if he's the first astronaut on the Moon.

My proudest achievement are my own three children, who are all grown up now, and the nicest three people I know.