Zone1 A child afflicted with anencephalia, with no ability to think, breathe on their own, feel pain, to ever become self-aware, etc. is a "person."

[toobfreak]

It is entirely possible to recognize that the baby, you said baby, is a human being AND find circumstances that necessitate ending that life. You don't really need to deny that person's humanity.

But then, consider that the Left denied the humanity of J6ers, denied the humanity of anti-vaxxers. People without humanity tend not to see it in others.

 

[irosie91]

Yeah, so did I at about the age of 5-6 years old. My point being that I once heard of a case where some guy had an accident and was hit in the head with a big iron spike or something like a railroad spike. It penetrated deep into his brain. I saw the x-rays. It went in halfway to the center of his head. It was kind of high up and on the side where it entered him.

Not only did the guy live, but he suffered no ill effects, no loss of function and went on to live a normal life. I think they even left the thing in his head afraid to take it out. Doctors were fairly mystified.

My point being that while I have no doubt this kid will never recover to lead anything close to a normal life and will likely die very young, there is a chance he might live. And there is a chance that over many years, decades, he might actually gain a little function.

Quality of life is always a consideration, but who makes that decision for another person?

When in doubt, I always give the benefit of the doubt.

the name of the man in your account is PHINEAS GAGE. He was not anencephalic----
anencephalics just die----all by themselves so far. I never I have never heard of a
survivor----Phineas live----to approximately 40

 

[toobfreak]

"While abortion rights appeared to many jurists to be precedent and “settled law,” anti-abortion activists and their sponsors never saw it as such, and for nearly 50 years they lobbied the Court to overturn Roe. The Court’s June 2022 decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization did just that. Federal abortion rights were nullified, and the regulation of abortion was returned to the states."

The Supreme Court reexamined the basis for the original RvW ruling and found it to be very flawed. State laws on abortion vary, but I'm aware of no state that attempts to assert that any woman has an inalienable human right to end other human's rights just because their own actions caused an inconvenient outcome for them that anyone could have predicted and seen coming that now justifies correcting the mistake by taking another human life.

 

[Chuz Life]

But then, consider that the Left denied the humanity of J6ers, denied the humanity of anti-vaxxers. People without humanity tend not to see it in others.

I know I've said it before but your comment gives me the chance to say it again.

The thing I want more than anything else is for the supporters of legalized abortion to OWN what they are doing and supporting.

I want them to at least ADMIT that they support the denial of basic human rights to the children being denied and killed.

Even in cases where they think it is 100% justified and within the woman's right to do what she wants to with "her body" - they still can't afford to admit that an abortion kills a child.

I know they know better.

 

[toobfreak]

The thing I want more than anything else is for the supporters of legalized abortion to OWN what they are doing and supporting.

I'd be curious to see what effect making abortion not a free, paid public service by PP would have on abortion rates.

I don't know what it costs to have an abortion, but I think people needing them ought to pay for them themselves. Then they might be more careful. If you live under the poverty limit, you get a free abortion. Need a second one and it become mandatory to get neutered.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

But then, consider that the Left denied the humanity of J6ers, denied the humanity of anti-vaxxers. People without humanity tend not to see it in others.

They pick and choose who is human and who is not and under what circumstances. It's all for one reason and one reason only, to feel good about themselves. They don't really believe they are killing anything. That's not them. They are good people. It's not alive, not a person. That makes it okay. Yet, they can still believe that a person with no brain can be murdered. Ask 100 leftist wackos, can a brain dead five year old child be raped? Should a man who did rape a brain dead five year old child be treated as he did nothing wrong? How many would agree?

 

[toobfreak]

the name of the man in your account is PHINEAS GAGE.

Good catch. That's the guy.

 

[toobfreak]

They pick and choose who is human and who is not and under what circumstances. It's all for one reason and one reason only, to feel good about themselves. They don't really believe they are killing anything. That's not them. They are good people. It's not alive, not a person. That makes it okay. Yet, they can still believe that a person with no brain can be murdered. Ask 100 leftist wackos, can a brain dead five year old child be raped? Should a man who did rape a brain dead five year old child be treated as he did nothing wrong? How many would agree?

People keep asserting here that anencephalic babies are a total lost cause who all die immediately or have no claim to life, yet here is a case where just such a baby lived three years and the parents are adamant that the child was actually making progress and developing mentally. Even laughed sometimes. All on just a brainstem.

'He taught us how to be a family': Boy born without a brain dies after three-year ‘miracle life’

Nickolas Coke suffered from a rare condition known as anencephaly, meaning he was born with only a brain stem.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Here is a similar case with essentially almost no brain where the child lived ten years:

Baby born with nearly no brain still alive 10 years later

Few thought Alex, a baby born with almost no brain, had any chance of surviving, but that was 10 years ago.

www.ketv.com

Here is a true anencephalic which lived two years without any life-sustaining intervention:

Prolonged unassisted survival in an infant with anencephaly - PMC

Anencephaly is one of the most lethal congenital defects. This case report is of an anencephalic infant who lived to 28 months of life and defies current literature. She is the longest surviving anencephalic infant who did not require ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

While I'm no expert, just as I maintained against all of the "experts" here, there are different types of anencephaly, ranging from partial to complete absence of the brain. In some cases, a small amount of brain tissue may be present at the base of the skull, while in others, there may be no brain tissue at all.

Once again, I'm right and the "experts" are wrong. Given these facts, it is remarkable that some of these kids live years and even apparently make some progress.

Life is amazing and the human brain is remarkable. Given the opportunity, life has a remarkable capacity to find a way to live, just so long as it can avoid democrats.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

People keep asserting here that anencephalic babies are a total lost cause who all die immediately or have no claim to life, yet here is a case where just such a baby lived three years and the parents are adamant that the child was actually making progress and developing mentally. Even laughed sometimes. All on just a brainstem.

'He taught us how to be a family': Boy born without a brain dies after three-year ‘miracle life’

Nickolas Coke suffered from a rare condition known as anencephaly, meaning he was born with only a brain stem.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Here is a similar case with essentially almost no brain where the child lived ten years:

Baby born with nearly no brain still alive 10 years later

Few thought Alex, a baby born with almost no brain, had any chance of surviving, but that was 10 years ago.

www.ketv.com

Here is a true anencephalic which lived two years without any life-sustaining intervention:

Prolonged unassisted survival in an infant with anencephaly - PMC

Anencephaly is one of the most lethal congenital defects. This case report is of an anencephalic infant who lived to 28 months of life and defies current literature. She is the longest surviving anencephalic infant who did not require ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

While I'm no expert, just as I maintained against all of the "experts" here, there are different types of anencephaly, ranging from partial to complete absence of the brain. In some cases, a small amount of brain tissue may be present at the base of the skull, while in others, there may be no brain tissue at all.

Once again, I'm right and the "experts" are wrong. Given these facts, it is remarkable that some of these kids live years and even apparently make some progress.

Life is amazing and the human brain is remarkable. Given the opportunity, life has a remarkable capacity to find a way to live, just so long as it can avoid democrats.

Avoiding democrats is getting harder. They must be confronted.

 

[playtime]

absolutely - when that child is post born.

once the post born female knows that her pregnancy progress, a post born child she gives birth to -will have that suffering - for however long it lives - should have the choice of allowing it to gestate to term.

& not anyone else.

 

[toobfreak]

Avoiding democrats is getting harder. They must be confronted.

Pretty hard to avoid a bunch of people who make it their life mission to get in other people's way trying to force everyone to think, act and live just as they choose, while calling us the fascists.

 

[Chuz Life]

I'd be curious to see what effect making abortion not a free, paid public service by PP would have on abortion rates.

I don't know what it costs to have an abortion, but I think people needing them ought to pay for them themselves. Then they might be more careful. If you live under the poverty limit, you get a free abortion. Need a second one and it become mandatory to get neutered.

My brain is not capable of considering that as a possible policy while holding the view that a child's right to the protection of our laws should begin when their life does.

As I reflect on so many of your other comments on this, I'm surprised that your brain can.

 

[toobfreak]

My brain is not capable of considering that as a possible policy why holding the view that a child's right to the protection of our laws should begin when their life does.

Well, long ago, I resolved that while my personal choice is not to abort, I understand that our country is based on free determination. So, in an attempt to be reasonable and meet pro-abortion people halfway hoping they might do the same, I've conceded a few things where abortion is discouraged and not made convenient nor easy while certain limits are placed on it, because in the final analysis, as much as I'm against it, I really do not have the right to tell other people what to think or how to live.

Now I just hope they too can make the same leap of faith.

But understand that the real solution is to educate the next generation going forward to value life.

 

[Chuz Life]

Well, long ago, I resolved that while my personal choice is not to abort, I understand that our country is based on free determination. So, in an attempt to be reasonable and meet pro-abortion people halfway hoping they might do the same, I've conceded a few things where abortion is discouraged and not made convenient nor easy while certain limits are placed on it, because in the final analysis, as much as I'm against it, I really do not have the right to tell other people what to think or how to live.

Now I just hope they too can make the same leap of faith.

But understand that the real solution is to educate the next generation going forward to value life.

Not trying to pick a fight here, so I hope you will help me understand. . . How is our country somehow based more on "free determination" as you say, instead of "basic human rights (with equal protections) and freedom for all" which is more what I think is the basis for our country?

 

[hadit]

A child afflicted with anencephalia, with no ability to think, no ability to breathe on their own, no ability to feel pain, no ability to ever become self-aware, etc. is a never-the-less a "person."

View attachment 1146756

Yet an 8 month old unborn baby, fully responsive to stimuli, capable of independent movement, sleeping, waking, breathing, etc. is considered NOT a person.

 

[Chuz Life]

Yet an 8 month old unborn baby, fully responsive to stimuli, capable of independent movement, sleeping, waking, breathing, etc. is considered NOT a person.

Edited: On my first reading, I missed your point.

Thank you for this observation!

100%

This has been my takeaway point for this thread, all along.

 

[toobfreak]

How is our country somehow based more on "free determination" as you say, instead of "basic human rights (with equal protections) and freedom for all" which is more what I think is the basis for our country?

Why not both? Free determination or self-actualization stemming from individual liberty is the foundation of all of our organic laws.

That said, there are limits. Our rights end where they impinge upon another's, and I'd say that committing to an action that results in the taking of another life is kind of stepping on other people's rights.

But, if there is a way to meet people in the middle, maybe it might help swing some pro-abortion people over to the other side, so, one way I've considered is to simply actively discourage abortion, but where it is inescapable, set limits, such as 16 weeks--- a point before there is any possibility of an active neural system which might feel pain and be somewhat aware of its surroundings.

After all, the other side of the coin is the desire not to force a child to have to grow up with a hellish mother who so little values it, that she would have preferred you dead before birth.

This way, I get some of what I want and they get some of what they want. No one gets everything. Once you meet in the middle halfway, now there is the possibility of making further inroads in the future.

It is all about baby steps and degrees.

 

[Chuz Life]

Why not both? Free determination or self-actualization stemming from individual liberty is the foundation of all of our organic laws.

That said, there are limits. Our rights end where they impinge upon another's, and I'd say that committing to an action that results in the taking of another life is kind of stepping on other people's rights.

But, if there is a way to meet people in the middle, maybe it might help swing some pro-abortion people over to the other side, so, one way I've considered is to simply actively discourage abortion, but where it is inescapable, set limits, such as 16 weeks--- a point before there is any possibility of an active neural system which might feel pain and be somewhat aware of its surroundings.

After all, the other side of the coin is the desire not to force a child to have to grow up with a hellish mother who so little values it, that she would have preferred you dead before birth.

This way, I get some of what I want and they get some of what they want. No one gets everything. Once you meet in the middle halfway, now there is the possibility of making further inroads in the future.

It is all about baby steps and degrees.

I would be more willing to explore that middle ground - if the abortion proponents would do the same.

All they have to do is admit or acknowledge that we are talking about the middle ground on human (children's) lives and when those human beings (biological children) are entitled to the equal protection of our laws.

 

[toobfreak]

I would be more willing to explore that middle ground - if the abortion proponents would do the same. All they have to do is admit or acknowledge that we are talking about the middle ground on human (children's) lives and when those human beings (biological children) are entitled to the equal protection of our laws.

Leftists talk about democracy, but are never willing to meet anyone halfway in the middle on anything.

They demand compromise from all but themselves, who are never willing to compromise on anything.

Pretty much the whole reason why they are in the boat they are, because, when you won't compromise nor even negotiate, you end up making others force you into it, much as the USA and Israel are now forcing Iran and Hamas.

 

[JoeB131]

View attachment 1147824

Except most acorns get eaten by squirrels, and most zygotes wash out in a tampon.

And if you want to go a step further, most saplings never become trees. They are usually crowded out by the bigger trees that eat up all the sunlight and moisture.