Zone1 A child afflicted with anencephalia, with no ability to think, breathe on their own, feel pain, to ever become self-aware, etc. is a "person."

[JoeB131]

Israel avoids killing children while Hamas uses them as human shields, starves them, and kills them. Laws of self defense so not give you the right to defend a criminal even is shes your wife. you have no such right.

Not the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss Israel's human "rights" abuses in Palestine, there are plenty of other thread to do that in.

 

[Chuz Life]

Not the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss Israel's human "rights" abuses in Palestine, there are plenty of other thread to do that in.

Like you haven't been derailing this thread.

How rich.

 

[hadit]

I would be more willing to explore that middle ground - if the abortion proponents would do the same.

All they have to do is admit or acknowledge that we are talking about the middle ground on human (children's) lives and when those human beings (biological children) are entitled to the equal protection of our laws.

The fastest way to get an abortion proponent to backpedal is to agree with them. When they start with "what about an incest or rape victim? What about an ectopic pregnancy?" Simply say, "Okay, let's agree to limit abortions only to cases where a doctor signs off that a mother and child cannot survive the pregnancy and/or cases where a police report has been filed for rape and/or incest".

They will all of a sudden back off the extreme examples, because that's not what they're really worried about. I would like us to be honest about what is growing inside a mother's body. Stop trying to hide the human life by insisting there's no human in there at all. Let's be honest and admit that we don't really place much value on that human life. After all, we place varying values on human lives all the time.

1. Civilian lives in a country with which we're at war? Not much value. Certainly not as much as ours.
2. The lives of drug addicts? No, not much. We pause when we see a story about someone who died of an overdose but do nothing to help the next one that we know about who lives two doors down from us.
3. Here's a big one. The tens of thousands we lose on the highways every year due to high speeds? We quite frankly eagerly accept them because we want to drive fast. Think of how many lives would be saved every year if no motor vehicle could physically travel faster than 35 mph. We won't ever implement that, however, because we want to drive fast more than we want to save lives.

 

[JoeB131]

Like you haven't been derailing this thread.

How rich.

I'm trying to stay on topic, which seems to be you trying to invent reasons why Globby the Fetus should have more "rights" that the woman who is unlucky enough to have it inside her.

 

[Chuz Life]

I'm trying to stay on topic, which seems to be you trying to invent reasons why Globby the Fetus should have more "rights" that the woman who is unlucky enough to have it inside her.

The "fetus has more rights" claim is a lie that lives in your head.

A right to the equal protection of our laws does not amount to "more rights."

But back to the OP.

I see you agree that a child with no brain function, no physical capacity, or brain, no capacity to ever be conscious or self-aware, is nevertheless a "person."

What is it that makes them a "person," Joey?

Give us the details so we can all stand in awe of your brilliant observation and insight.

 

[JoeB131]

The "fetus has more rights" claim is a lie that lives in your head.

A right to the equal protection of our laws does not amount to "more rights."

But back to the OP.

I see you agree that a child with no brain function, no physical capacity, or brain, no capacity to ever be conscious or self-aware, is nevertheless a "person."

What is it that makes them a "person," Joey?

Give us the details so we can all stand in awe of your brilliant observation and insight.

That's an easy one. Once it has been born, it has been issued a birth certificate and has been assigned a name. So that would make it... a child.

A child that never should have been brought into this world, because someone should have detected it before it was born and ended the pregnancy, but for legal purposes, such as the massive lawsuit for incompetence the parents are going to file against the doctors, it is definitely a person.

Now back to the issue of "rights". There's an old saying that "Your right to swing your arm ends at my nose."

By the same logic, 'Globby's right to life ends at her uterine wall".

 

[Chuz Life]

JoeB131

That's an easy one. Once it has been born, it has been issued a birth certificate and has been assigned a name. So that would make it... a child.

A child that never should have been brought into this world, because someone should have detected it before it was born and ended the pregnancy, but for legal purposes, such as the massive lawsuit for incompetence the parents are going to file against the doctors, it is definitely a person.

Now back to the issue of "rights". There's an old saying that "Your right to swing your arm ends at my nose."

By the same logic, 'Globby's right to life ends at her uterine wall".

One thing at a time. (Still trying to stay on the topic of the OP, here)

So, it appears that we agree that consciousness, sentience, sapience, the ability to breathe on one's own, the ability to feel pain. . . are NOT requirements for personhood. Correct?

Edited to ask: "Joey, do you think elective abortions should be permitted all the way up to the minute that parturition takes place?"

 

[JoeB131]

One thing at a time. (Still trying to stay on the topic of the OP, here)

So, it appears that we agree that consciousness, sentience, sapience, the ability to breathe on one's own, the ability to feel pain. . . are NOT requirements for personhood. Correct?

Edited to ask: "Joey, do you think elective abortions should be permitted all the way up to the minute that parturition takes place?"

It would depend on the circumstances.

If she is aborting a baby because it has anencephaly, brittle bone syndrome, Down Syndrome, or any of a number of health problems, then I would have no issue with a late abortion.

If she is aborting it because she caught her cheating man banging the maid, I might wince at that one a bit. I don't think any ethical doctor would perform the procedure under those circumstances, though. They'd probably try to talk her out of it.

 

[Chuz Life]

It would depend on the circumstances.

If she is aborting a baby because it has anencephaly, brittle bone syndrome, Down Syndrome, or any of a number of health problems, then I would have no issue with a late abortion.

If she is aborting it because she caught her cheating man banging the maid, I might wince at that one a bit. I don't think any ethical doctor would perform the procedure under those circumstances, though. They'd probably try to talk her out of it.

So, you wouldn't support making Roe the law of the land again.

Correct?

I ask because obviously, even Roe said the State has a right to intervene after the (moving goal posts) of "viability."

 

[JoeB131]

So, you wouldn't support making Roe the law of the land again.

Correct?

I ask because obviously, even Roe said the State has a right to intervene after the (moving goal posts) of "viability."

Roe wasn't the problem. Roe specificially set up rules where abortion could be banned after "Viability".

Which were immediately set aside by Doe v. Bolton. (Issued the same day as Roe) that established that any threat to the mother's health allowed abortion after viability. The problem was, it was pretty vague. I might have a mental breakdown if I have this baby, into the Medical Waste container it goes!!!

Most of the anti-abortion fanatics talk about Roe but forget Doe was out there.

The law should be- Whatever the woman and her doctor decide is the best course of treatment, and everyone else needs to mind their own business.

 

[Chuz Life]

The law should be- Whatever the woman and her doctor decide is the best course of treatment, and everyone else needs to mind their own business.

Such a solid starting point for the personhood and basic human rights of children.

Wow!

 

[JoeB131]

Such a solid starting point for the personhood and basic human rights of children.

Wow!

works for me.

Also works as a pragmatic point, that if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, she'll find a way not to be pregnant.

You see, we can scream at each other all day about this issue, but since neither one of us has a womb, it's academic.

The outlawing of abortion would have one of two results.

1) A law that everyone ignores, and finds ways around depending on their resources, which the authorities won't bother to enforce. This is what happened with Prohibition, it's what is essentially happening with prostitution laws.

2) A mish-mash of enforcement that encroaches on personal freedoms to the point where we aren't America anymore. Forget about privacy, forget about individual choice. Your Womb is now the property of the state.

And we don't have to go very far to find examples of either. In the former case, we need to look no farther than the Philippines. They have the kinds of laws you want. They also have more abortions per capita than the US has.

IN the latter, you need to look at Communist Romania under Nicolae Ceaușescu, who had the brilliant idea that if you made childbirth mandatory, Romania would be a great power due to its population size. It worked. For about a year, before black market abortions and birth control found their way into the country. Ceaușescu was so hated that when Communism fell, his own people took him and his wife and shot them on Christmas.

 

[Chuz Life]

works for me.

Also works as a pragmatic point, that if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, she'll find a way not to be pregnant.

You see, we can scream at each other all day about this issue, but since neither one of us has a womb, it's academic.

The outlawing of abortion would have one of two results.

1) A law that everyone ignores, and finds ways around depending on their resources, which the authorities won't bother to enforce. This is what happened with Prohibition, it's what is essentially happening with prostitution laws.

2) A mish-mash of enforcement that encroaches on personal freedoms to the point where we aren't America anymore. Forget about privacy, forget about individual choice. Your Womb is now the property of the state.

And we don't have to go very far to find examples of either. In the former case, we need to look no farther than the Philippines. They have the kinds of laws you want. They also have more abortions per capita than the US has.

IN the latter, you need to look at Communist Romania under Nicolae Ceaușescu, who had the brilliant idea that if you made childbirth mandatory, Romania would be a great power due to its population size. It worked. For about a year, before black market abortions and birth control found their way into the country. Ceaușescu was so hated that when Communism fell, his own people took him and his wife and shot them on Christmas.

Opinion noted.

Now let's see you reconcile all of that with the idea that a child (person's) rights should begin when their life does.

 

[JoeB131]

Opinion noted.

Now let's see you reconcile all of that with the idea that a child (person's) rights should begin when their life does.

We've been over that.

There are no rights.

There are only those privileges that society is willing to tolerate.

If you are looking at the competing "rights" of Globby vs. the woman he's inside, then the woman has all the power in that relationship, as she controls the money and can make the appointment for the abortion.

and thank goodness for that, the last thing we want is the government regulating that sort of thing.

 

[Chuz Life]

We've been over that.

There are no rights.

There are only those privileges that society is willing to tolerate.

If you are looking at the competing "rights" of Globby vs. the woman he's inside, then the woman has all the power in that relationship, as she controls the money and can make the appointment for the abortion.

and thank goodness for that, the last thing we want is the government regulating that sort of thing.

That denial of yours is being defeated.

Not soon enough though.

 

[JoeB131]

That denial of yours is being defeated.

Not soon enough though.

Defeated by whom?

Even Ohio and Kansas have voted to protect abortion access.

So now you clever boys are just refusing to put it on the ballot.

That'll buy you some time, but not much.

 

[Chuz Life]

Defeated by whom?

Even Ohio and Kansas have voted to protect abortion access.

So now you clever boys are just refusing to put it on the ballot.

That'll buy you some time, but not much.

And Roe will never be overturned.

Wait.

 

[JoeB131]

And Roe will never be overturned.

Wait.

Nope. YOu guys aren't winning the argument.

After Trump tanks the economy and Democrats are back, watch for Roe to be codified nationally.

Game over.

 

[Hafar1014]

Nope. YOu guys aren't winning the argument.

After Trump tanks the economy and Democrats are back, watch for Roe to be codified nationally.

Game over.

The economy is thriving and Trump is setting the foundation fir a wealth based economy as opposed to a Biden debt based economy. Tariffs tax cuts regulation cuts and reliable low cost energy are the basis for a strong economy

 

[JoeB131]

The economy is thriving and Trump is setting the foundation fir a wealth based economy as opposed to a Biden debt based economy. Tariffs tax cuts regulation cuts and reliable low cost energy are the basis for a strong economy

Um, yeah, not really.

Inflation is still running rampant, umemployment is increasing, and a crash is just around the corner.