Zone1 A Brief Look at Blacks and Jews in America(take 2)

[Coyote]

You sure made an effort to dig up an obscure article as a way to criticize Jews.

Nobody ever said Jews were perfect, but there sure is a lot to admire - and emulate. They faced plenty of antisemitism when they arrived here, impoverished and uneducated, and yet rose above it without constantly blaming other people. The most horrific of course is that they had to live through the murder of their immediate families, but they were also subjected to plenty of Jew-hate.

As flacaltenn pointed out, they dealt with restricted neighborhoods where developers wouldn’t sell, and all sorts of clubs where Jews weren’t allowed. They ran into roadblocks because employers wouldn’t hire Jews. But did they whine about it and blame others all the time? NO. They moved to where neighborhoods did allow Jews, they formed their own clubs, and they relocated to where people would hire Jews.

So with all that determination, motivation, effort, hard work, discipline, and sacrifice to work around all that prejudice, are you applauding their outcomes in spite of antisemitism, or, like IM2 and Newvine, are you looking for ways to discredit them by posting an opinion piece by a college intern who is condemning them?

The condemnation should go to the high out-of-wedlock birthrate, which is proven to correlate with poverty and crime, and yet you find a way to criticize Jews and enable blacks to lash out and blame everyone else for their problems.

Jews certainly faced anti semitism and persecution in this country, but they never faced Jim Crowe or justice by lynching the way Blacks did. When you constantly try to minimize that by saying it was the same, you are ignoring history.

 

[katsteve2012]

Jews certainly faced anti semitism and persecution in this country, but they never faced Jim Crowe or justice by lynching the way Blacks did. When you constantly try to minimize that by saying it was the same, you are ignoring history.

I certainly concur that Jews have faced prejudice and persecution that was just as horrific as what Blacks have experienced, and the majority of those atrocities were committed in Germany and other parts of the world.

I'm trying to stay out of this, because it is a circular argument, but I think that the disconnect is that some in this discussion are referring to what has historically transpired in America, instead of all over the world.

Neither case of what happened to both groups was humane, and their alliance during the Civil Rights movement made perfect sense
JMO

 

[fncceo]

Well….that is pretty fundamental alright…

It's actually a quote from Benjamin Franklin.

A funny, funny guy.

 

[Coyote]

I certainly concur that Jews have faced prejudiceand persecution very much like what Blacks have experienced. And the majority of atrocities were committed in Germany and other parts of the world.

I'm trying to stay out of this, because it is a circular argument, but I think that the disconnect is that some in this discussion are referring to what has historically transpired in America, instead of all over the world.

Neither case of what happened to both groups is humane.
JMO

Agree. I’m trying to talk about this country only, if you are talking world wide, it’s a lot more complicated.

 

[katsteve2012]

Agree. I’m trying to talk about this country only, if you are talking world wide, it’s a lot more complicated.

Complicated and never ending.

 

[flacaltenn]

Both of those words are, and can be used as pejoratives. They should not be allowed use by folks of Jewish ancestry certainly, maybe by those who identify as a gentiles perhaps? I don't know, they are disgusting words. Unless all pejoratives are allowed? None of them should be.

Lighten up just a bit. The actual usage of "goy/goyim" in several places in Exodus refers to "nation". God refers to the Jews as a "holy nation" after they left Egypt. (goy kadosh). Over time, when the Jews were in diaspora all over the world, It was used to described the "accepted inhabitants" of the lands in which they live. Like in "everybody but us". NOT generally used in negative connotation. It's the best word "for the job".

Leftists are just jealous that THEY dont have a precise term to use as a derogatory for "anybody but us" -- but "conservatives" will do.. LOL.. So there are some on-line dictionaries that SAY it's "generally meant to be derogatory".

Now shiksas is Yiddish, not Hebrew roots and CAN be derogatory. USUALLY used in arguments that feisty Jewish parents make to their male kids as to a "Non - Jewish" choice of female partner. And that's a whole 'nother matter. Because it's hardly ever used for EVERY non-Jewish woman. I've never heard it that way. Worst example is a business card that my 1st wife (Jewish) gave me when we were first dating that some camp counselors printed up for the girls. It read "Shiksas are for practice". And it made such an impression on me that I married her.



The wiki says there are 56 PAGES of english derogatory words against women. Cant we just have ONE ???

 

[MisterBeale]

It's the best word "for the job".

No, it isn't.

I can read that context this poster means it in, much like a lot of the hostile folks toward IM2 use the word negro. They do not use it in the context in which negro is simply meant as a descriptor. And I have had much interaction with this member. He means it in the derogatory, belittling & contemptuous manner.

If the word gentile did not exist? Sure, I could agree with you, but the word gentile DOES exist, and this particular member, I am much familiar with his attitude with other nations and cultures on Earth, in regards to their policies vis-à-vis his own "tribe." I have no doubt the Jews in my own family would be embarrassed to see him claiming to be Jewish, and belittling other folks that way.

But you know what? Next time I see a very close cousin, I'll ask him if he believes he marrid a "shiska."

Or if he feels that when he spends Passover with his Catholic side of the family, if he considers them "goy," or "gentile."

I have never read such equivocating, for allowing such hateful, divisive nonsense in supposedly, "zone 1."

Next time IM2 gets upset over folks calling him a testy negro, we'll just tell him, "lighten up." They mean well.

It's the best word for the job.

But we know that it isn't.

Just as it is time to stop thinking the way our founders in America thought about race and ethnicity? It is time for the modern Jew to stop thinking about his tribe vis-à-vis the rest of the global society, especially, American society. As either separate, victims, chosen, or in anyway, superior. It's all nonsense.

However, denying reality? Using this exclusionary language to demean others, and then deny it isn't? Is precisely what a lot of forum members do to IM2 on the regular.

If you aren't a Jew, and your wife is, would she refer to your side of the family as goy, or gentiles? In person? I too have a mixed family, and I know how that word would go down in person. . . And I know which word polite Jews use to distinguish.

“As a Jew married to a Jew by choice, I definitely see goy as a slur — seldom used as a compliment, and never used in the presence of a non-Jew,” wrote Nahma Nadich, the deputy director of the Jewish Community Relations Council of Greater Boston. “That’s a good litmus test: if you wouldn’t use a word in the presence of someone you’re describing, good chance it’s offensive.”

Sobel explained that she was reacting to white supremacists who have embraced the word “goyim,” partly to accuse Jews of promoting their own brand of ethnic chauvinism and partly as a badge of twisted honor. But she also thanked those who responded for changing her thinking about the term.

“Goy can be weaponized to hurt interfaith families, converts, and patrilineal Jews,” she wrote. “We all have unique relationships to the term shaped by our experience. So grateful to have had so many people jump in on the conversation and tell me about theirs.”

<snip>

". . . Jews are hardly alone in this exclusionary thinking. The Jew-goy distinction was born at a time when Jews were themselves excluded from the “nations,” and could barely imagine a society where people of various faiths and religions could live side by side on equal terms.

That doesn’t argue for getting rid of the “Pour out your fury on the goyim” section of the Haggadah. I’m a big believer in wrestling with the more difficult parts of the tradition rather than censoring them. But perhaps we should read such language with empathy for the Jewish condition at the time it was written — and acknowledge the ways our own conditions have changed.. . . "

Is 'goy' a slur? - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

An innocuous term in the Bible has a lot of baggage.

www.jta.org

 

[flacaltenn]

If the word gentile did not exist? Sure, I could agree with you, but the word gentile DOES exist, and this particular member, I am much familiar with his attitude with other nations and cultures on Earth, in regards to their policies vis-à-vis his own "tribe." I have no doubt the Jews in my own family would be embarrassed to see him claiming to be Jewish, and belittling other folks that way.

That's strange. You want Jews to DUMP the Hebrew word goy and accept some SKETCHY LATIN word that has been used by the CHURCH since 1400s?

gentile | Etymology of gentile by etymonline

"one who is not a Jew," c. 1400; earlier "one who is not a Christian, a pagan" (late… See origin and meaning of gentile.

www.etymonline.com

"one who is not a Jew," c. 1400; earlier "one who is not a Christian, a pagan" (late 14c.), from Late Latin noun use of Latin gentilis "of the same family or clan, of or belonging to a Roman gens," from gens (genitive gentis) "race, clan," from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups. Compare gentle.

Got a lot of mileage out of that one didn't you? First it meant "not a Christian, a PAGAN" BEFORE IT MEANT "not a Jew"? But here's the kicker. CHRISTIANS used "gentile" to TRANSLATE THE Hebrew "goy" meaning "nations" into several CHRISTIAN bible versions. How sweet of you..



Must NOT have been derogatory to St. Jerome who WROTE the Catholic Church version.

The Latin word then was used in the Vulgate to translate Greek ethnikos (see ethnic), from ta ethne "the nations," which translated Hebrew ha goyim "the (non-Jewish) nations" (see goy). Hence in Late Latin, after the Christianization of Rome, gentilis also could mean "pagans, heathens," as opposed to Christians. Based on Scripture, gentile also was used by Mormons (1847) and Shakers (1857) to refer to those not of their profession.

How rich is that? Suggesting we use a substitute for the ACTUAL Hebrew which originates with meaning for "pagans" and "heathens".. That'll fix disputes over mis-use of words fer' sure.....

 

[MisterBeale]

That's strange. You want Jews to DUMP the Hebrew word goy and accept some SKETCHY LATIN word that has been used by the CHURCH since 1400s?

gentile | Etymology of gentile by etymonline

"one who is not a Jew," c. 1400; earlier "one who is not a Christian, a pagan" (late… See origin and meaning of gentile.

www.etymonline.com

Got a lot of mileage out of that one didn't you? First it meant "not a Christian, a PAGAN" BEFORE IT MEANT "not a Jew"? But here's the kicker. CHRISTIANS used "gentile" to TRANSLATE THE Hebrew "goy" meaning "nations" into several CHRISTIAN bible versions. How sweet of you..



Must NOT have been derogatory to St. Jerome who WROTE the Catholic Church version.



How rich is that? Suggesting we use a substitute for the ACTUAL Hebrew which originates with meaning for "pagans" and "heathens".. That'll fix disputes over mis-use of words fer' sure.....

You know what? Forget it.

We are not going to agree on this, and you ignored practically everything I posted.


Simply put, you never answered the question, would your ex-wife use those words in front of the target audience? If you had a daughter that wasn't raised Jewish, would you want Jewish men to refer to her as shiksas?


You have to equivocate in order to justify your position, which? Is in reality, untenable.

On the one hand? You admit, the root of the word shiskas is largely regarded by some, as absolute deplorable and depraved, and very condescending in its etymology, but your defense? It has more modern connotations in both art and literature for those who typically use it, so if it offends some? They should get over it.

. . . OTH?

While it certainly may be the case, that the word, "Goy," is a very offensive word for very large swaths of the population? Since its etymology has some rather innocuous connotations? Well, it should be just fine. The Latin word Gentile is not as good, even though it is far less offense to everyone?

I mean, hell, if that is the reasoning, if we go back to the Latin roots for justification, for both the word negro and n1gger, the etymology of both, go back to the Latin word for black, which is nigrum, so, using your logic, it does not matter if the intent of users on this forum, or even bothering with Zone 1, both words should be allowed.

It all only means. . . "black."

The feelings of listeners or readers, does not matter, nor does the intent of writers or speakers, or the modern meanings of word's impact on people, only the ancient origin of the words themselves.

The point is, modern usage is different than etymology.

Very first TOP VOTED user definition, from across the internet;

"1. A Hebrew word used in the Jewish Scriptures (a.k.a. the Old Testament). The word means "nation," and is always used within these scriptures to refer to the nations of the world. Significantly, within the Old Testament, Judah (the Jewish nation) itself is called a "goy."
2. In the Old Testament, the Jews were called to be a nation separate from the other nations, which were all Pagan. And so, colloquially, all non-Jewish nations came to be called "goyim" as in "the nations" from which the God of the Old Testament had called upon the Jews to separate themselves.
3. A word used by some Jews to refer to Gentiles (non-Jews). The word can have derogatory connotations, such as the word "black" when used to refer to a persons of African descent. It can be neutral or negative depending on the context and the intent of the speaker."

Urban Dictionary: goy

1. A Hebrew word used in the Jewish Scriptures (a.k.a. the Old Testament). The word means "nation," and is always used within these scriptures to refer to the nations of the world. Significantly, within the Old Testament, Judah (the Jewish nation) itself is called a "goy." 2. In the Old...

www.urbandictionary.com

My whole point of this bone I am picking, from the start, is context is everything. Very intelligent folks, are using the letter of the rules, and certain words, to obviously get around the spirit of the rules, and IMO? It cheapens the whole objective of the sub-forum, makes a mockery of it.

I have posted evidence that there are large segments of the population that feel this way, so even if YOU don't agree, it does not matter. It is still objectively factual true, and there isn't anything you can do to change reality. Anymore than we can change the reality of implicit bias, that affects our minority members, and haunts them, every single day of their lives.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

The net gain hasn’t exclusively been going to whites in my lifetime, so no….I wasn’t concerned with equity.

Of course you weren't, you people never are except when you perceive it to be not in your favor.

More importantly the world doesn't revolve around you Lisa. Your lifetime is pretty much irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. We're talking generation after generation of black families paying into a system that lawfully short changed them with inferior goods & services when they could get them or no goods & services which they were lawfully allowed to do.

And let's not forget money going into government funds to pay for low income white students to attend schools black students were not allowed to attend.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

So what I’d the college my dad went to go public funding? Public colleges get public funding.

But here, in your mad effort to show why a Jew got benefits from a state fundEd college and blacks were shut out - is where you go wrong. Blacks were in the same college, at the same time!

The way you want to say it is that blacks were locked out of the benefits that Jews got as your way to keep blaming racism. You want whites to think that blacks couldn’t go to college in the 1940s. Well news flash - they could and did.

The fact that blacks are still living in poverty, when there has been opportunities for blacks equal to whites (actually, given MORE opportunity in many ways) for two generations isn’t whites’ fault.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

So what I’d the college my dad went to go public funding? Public colleges get public funding.

So what? So what is that you were complaining about YOUR tax dollars going to pay for reparations while claiming SO WHAT that your dad got money from tax payers to go to school. Some of that tax money in all likelihood came from black tax payers as well yet some of those schools, black students were not allowed to attend.

Apparently your hypocrisy knows no bounds. And getting government money to go to school IS a form of assistance whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

The fact that blacks are still living in poverty, when there has been opportunities for blacks equal to whites (actually, given MORE opportunity in many ways) for two generations isn’t whites’ fault.

You are one of the most dishonest people I have ever encountered. I don't know why you have it in your mind that 58 years of race neutral laws compared to over 170 years of racially discriminatory laws against black people is enough time to remediate the harm done by our government allowing that bullshit doctrine of 'separate but equal' aka legal racial segregation/discrimination.

You KNOW that all things were not equal and still are not completely equal between the white & black races but you continue to pretend like all one has to do is follow your bullshit formula and all will be well. While simultaneously mocking the misfortunes of those black people.

I notice your focus seems to be on those whom you consider beneath you.

So tell us Lisa, if out of wedlock births of 72% is the main reason that 20% of black people live below the poverty line then that only leaves 8% of the population that lives below the poverty line with an out of wedlock child. That's less than half of the 20% living in poverty. So how can that be the main REASON for the poverty?

Coyote first noted that your numbers & percentages didn't make any sense.

 

[irosie91]

You are one of the most dishonest people I have ever encountered. I don't know why you have it in your mind that 58 years of race neutral laws compared to over 170 years of racially discriminatory laws against black people is enough time to remediate the harm done by our government allowing that bullshit doctrine of 'separate but equal' aka legal racial segregation/discrimination.

You KNOW that all things were not equal and still are not completely equal between the white & black races but you continue to pretend like all one has to do is follow your bullshit formula and all will be well. While simultaneously mocking the misfortunes of those black people.

I notice your focus seems to be on those whom you consider beneath you.

So tell us Lisa, if out of wedlock births of 72% is the main reason that 20% of black people live below the poverty line then that only leaves 8% of the population that lives below the poverty line with an out of wedlock child. That's less than half of the 20% living in poverty. So how can that be the main REASON for the poverty?

Coyote first noted that your numbers & percentages didn't make any sense.

ok ----your entire problem is racism. Happy now?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Oh please. Jews have been subjected to persecution and bigotry for 2,000 years.

Not in the United States they haven't and that's the topic here, not what happened 2000 years ago in some foreign land.

The Jews of 1940s NYC were suffering more from antisemitism than the blacks of 1940s NYC were suffering from racism. They had their families KILLED for being Jewish, ans in the midst of living through that terror, still managed to look forward - and succeed.

I've told you that you posturing yourself as "my people suffered more than your people" just makes you look pathetic. The fact that you can't even acknowledge the suffering of any group other than your own makes you look doubly pathetic especially since we all can acknowledge and empathize with the suffering of the Jewish people as fellow human beings who have suffered persecution as well.

The fact remains that these poor, impoverished Jews arrived on these shores, experienced horrific antisemitism by losing their families to Jew-hate, and with the same opportunities as blacks had to go on to college, ended up a generation later in middle class suburbs.

The opportunities they had were not the same as those available to black people. You've been told this repeatedly now for months on end and have been provided with corroborating evidence in support of such. At this point you are simply lying.

There is an article that I would have to do some serious research to try to locate but it's an opinion written by a federal judge which talks about opportunities and how allowing a person through the front door but not allow them to proceed any further allows prejudiced individuals to claim that they have made accommodations in order to satisfy a mandate but the reality is, that the road blocks to prevent true justice are still in place.

That's you. Claiming that all things are equal just because there was what, 1 black person in your dad's class does not mean that things were equal and that they both had the same opportunities available to them. After graduation you need someone to give you a job or at least an opportunity and there were fewer for black people even with college degrees than there were for whites. This is documented history.

And it continues on. So keep pretending that as white people or in the very least, NOT black people that your dad and the black student in his classes had the same opportunities available to the based on the exact same degree.

I have a teddy bear that can easily get more job opportunities and invites to interview than I can, in spite of our resumes saying EXACTLY the same thing with the exception of our names. Explain that.

 

[irosie91]

Not in the United States they haven't and that's the topic here, not what happened 2000 years ago in some foreign land.


I've told you that you posturing yourself as "my people suffered more than your people" just makes you look pathetic. The fact that you can't even acknowledge the suffering of any group other than your own makes you look doubly pathetic especially since we all can acknowledge and empathize with the suffering of the Jewish people as fellow human beings who have suffered persecution as well.


The opportunities they had were not the same as those available to black people. You've been told this repeatedly now for months on end and have been provided with corroborating evidence in support of such. At this point you are simply lying.

There is an article that I would have to do some serious research to try to locate but it's an opinion written by a federal judge which talks about opportunities and how allowing a person through the front door but not allow them to proceed any further allows prejudiced individuals to claim that they have made accommodations in order to satisfy a mandate but the reality is, that the road blocks to prevent true justice are still in place.

That's you. Claiming that all things are equal just because there was what, 1 black person in your dad's class does not mean that things were equal and that they both had the same opportunities available to them. After graduation you need someone to give you a job or at least an opportunity and there were fewer for black people even with college degrees than there were for whites. This is documented history.

And it continues on. So keep pretending that as white people or in the very least, NOT black people that your dad and the black student in his classes had the same opportunities available to the based on the exact same degree.

I have a teddy bear that can easily get more job opportunities and invites to interview than I can, in spite of our resumes saying EXACTLY the same thing with the exception of our names. Explain that.

ROFLMAO at your "BLACK TEDDY BEAR" ----A personal anecdote>>> I am one of five sibs---both of my parents were disabled. I went to a public college----the lady who controlled financial aid was a very sympathetic black lady. AT THAT TIME lots of the black girls were on FULL SCHOLARSHIP. She told me----"there is nothing for you----can you claim to be a "DAUGHTER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION"??? I said "hell no" ---she URGED me to find some way to make the claim (hell no) ---that was back in the 1960s. Now for a silly meme---one of my best friends was a POLY SCI major---full scholarship----living it up-------ok ---she was black.
Really bright kid----she went on to be a lawyer

 

[Lisa558]

You are one of the most dishonest people I have ever encountered. I don't know why you have it in your mind that 58 years of race neutral laws compared to over 170 years of racially discriminatory laws against black people is enough time to remediate the harm done by our government allowing that bullshit doctrine of 'separate but equal' aka legal racial segregation/discrimination.

You KNOW that all things were not equal and still are not completely equal between the white & black races but you continue to pretend like all one has to do is follow your bullshit formula and all will be well. While simultaneously mocking the misfortunes of those black people.

I notice your focus seems to be on those whom you consider beneath you.

So tell us Lisa, if out of wedlock births of 72% is the main reason that 20% of black people live below the poverty line then that only leaves 8% of the population that lives below the poverty line with an out of wedlock child. That's less than half of the 20% living in poverty. So how can that be the main REASON for the poverty?

Coyote first noted that your numbers & percentages didn't make any sense.

Your personal insults and constant attacks simply because I disagree with you are inappropriate for Zone 1.

 

[irosie91]

Jews certainly faced anti semitism and persecution in this country, but they never faced Jim Crowe or justice by lynching the way Blacks did. When you constantly try to minimize that by saying it was the same, you are ignoring history.

"the way the blacks did'-----they faced MORE THAN ENOUGH. YOU are ignoring history

 

[Lisa558]

Not in the United States they haven't and that's the topic here, not what happened 2000 years ago in some foreign land.


I've told you that you posturing yourself as "my people suffered more than your people" just makes you look pathetic. The fact that you can't even acknowledge the suffering of any group other than your own makes you look doubly pathetic especially since we all can acknowledge and empathize with the suffering of the Jewish people as fellow human beings who have suffered persecution as well.


The opportunities they had were not the same as those available to black people. You've been told this repeatedly now for months on end and have been provided with corroborating evidence in support of such. At this point you are simply lying.

There is an article that I would have to do some serious research to try to locate but it's an opinion written by a federal judge which talks about opportunities and how allowing a person through the front door but not allow them to proceed any further allows prejudiced individuals to claim that they have made accommodations in order to satisfy a mandate but the reality is, that the road blocks to prevent true justice are still in place.

That's you. Claiming that all things are equal just because there was what, 1 black person in your dad's class does not mean that things were equal and that they both had the same opportunities available to them. After graduation you need someone to give you a job or at least an opportunity and there were fewer for black people even with college degrees than there were for whites. This is documented history.

And it continues on. So keep pretending that as white people or in the very least, NOT black people that your dad and the black student in his classes had the same opportunities available to the based on the exact same degree.

I have a teddy bear that can easily get more job opportunities and invites to interview than I can, in spite of our resumes saying EXACTLY the same thing with the exception of our names. Explain that.

Who said there was one black kid in my dad’s college class in the 1940s? They had clubs and organizations.

And what do you mean “after graduation you need someone to give you a job?” Yes you do. And because they wouldn’t hire Jews in NY, my dad moved to DC where the government WOULD hire them. I imagine the blacks in his class could have - and probably did - the identical thing.

And the excuse that two generations of favoritism toward blacks doesn’t negate the 200 years they suffered under racism is ridiculous. THEY didn’t live through the 200 years! Anyone born after 1965 was born into a world where they would get into colleges with grades and scores far worse than the whites rejected to make room for them.

Finally, every single post of yours contains personal slaps and insults. In this one, you call me a liar. This is designed to get me to defend myself and off the topic - a classic Alinsky tactic - and not acceptable for a Zone 1 thread.

 

[Lisa558]

"the way the blacks did'-----they faced MORE THAN ENOUGH. YOU are ignoring history

Liberals always default to defending the group they see as the underdog. Thus, because Jews were able to rise above horrific antisemitism in a single generation in the midst of having their families murdered, and blacks still have twice the poverty rate due to their high OOW birthrate, her only explanation is that Jews didn’t have it so bad!

Millions of young Jews would hear their poor immigrant parents cry every night after their own parents and siblings were wiped from the Earth, and STILL study and work hard to make a better life for themselves in America. There is NO comparison to the blacks growing up in the 80s, 90s, and 00s, and 10s - with pro-black quotas to give them more of a chance in hiring, promotions, and college admissions.