Why I do believe in God

[zaangalewa]

Mixing religion and science and philosophy is like mixing apples and oranges and prunes.

They do not get along together.

They must be kept separate.

Who brainwashed you?

My mother and the Catholic Church -- it was a combined effort.

But Socrates set me free.

Socrates loved Xanthippe

 

[yiostheoy]

Indeed Socrates did love Xanthippe but not enough to flee Athens and take her with him.

This is what Aristotle was ultimately forced to do.

And Themistocles.

Athens was a dangerous town.

 

[zaangalewa]

Everything a person knows or can know comes by way of perceptions. All perceptions are 100% subjective.

Only subjects have perceptions. But this means not the perceptions are only subjective and not universal too. Green is green for everyone, who is able to see the color green. We have not the problem that we don't know what green is - we have the problem to be able to say wether two people have the same sensation, who see the color green.

One may talk about what one 'knows'. It becomes absurd when one insists that be the same for others.

It's not absurde to say "We see a green fish" as less as it is not absurde to say "We believe in god".

Experiment: Try to explain someone what's the taste of liver who never ate liver. That's impossible. But everyone who tasted liver knows what someone is speaking about who says "this tastes like liver".

 

[zaangalewa]

Indeed Socrates did love Xanthippe but not enough to flee Athens and take her with him.

This is what Aristotle was ultimately forced to do.

And Themistocles.

Athens was a dangerous town.

Did you say something now? Socrates did not like to flee. I don't know wether Xanthippe still lived when this had happened. And I don't know any Catholic who knows not Socrates and the simple form of his sentence "The people see in me an authority, because I am able to say on very good reasons, why I don't know something special". It's interesting to find out, why someone not knows something concrete, although he is convinced he knows something.

 

[zaangalewa]

I have come to the realization that I never deserved to be born, that I never deserved to be born again, and that I never deserved to be resurrected.

All of that is a gift from God, freely given in the abundance of His love, freely given in the abundance of His grace.

Why is that a gift from God? If God gives it as a gift, why does he then take it away?

I certainly do not see life as a gift. It's just something you have to get through in order to get to the next realm. I certainly don't want to stay any longer than what is required.

 

[zaangalewa]

Everything a person knows or can know comes by way of perceptions. All perceptions are 100% subjective. One may talk about what one 'knows'. It becomes absurd when one insists that be the same for others.

That's a good way to shoot down the intellect from the start, the sign of a true agnostic; and agnosticism only seeks to sever the intellect from God, which is why all truly professed agnostics are at enmity with God.

"Agnosticism" means not to know god. Christians say for example "I believe in god" - that's a form of agnosticism. Analogy: Do you love a woman because you know her? Normally you love her because she is she and not because she is you. So why should agnosticism produce "enmity" and not "love"?

 

[yiostheoy]

Indeed Socrates did love Xanthippe but not enough to flee Athens and take her with him.

This is what Aristotle was ultimately forced to do.

And Themistocles.

Athens was a dangerous town.

Did you say something now? Socrates did not like to flee. I don't know wether Xanthippe still lived when this had happened. And I don't know any Catholic who knows not Socrates and the simple form of his sentence "The people see in me an authority, because I am able to say on very good reasons, why I don't know something special". It's interesting to find out, why someone not knows something concrete, although he is convinced he knows something.

Xanthippe was at Socrates' execution.

You need to read more Plato.

 

[AVG-JOE]

What do you mean that you didn't 'deserve' to be born? You didn't have a choice in the matter and there is nothing you could have done to somehow 'earn' it.

Define "God".

It is more of a realization from the stand point of looking back to ones beginning from the resurrected state, as in being at the time of Christ's Second Coming and then reminiscing.

But your answer to a then seemingly rhetorical question is right on the button.

There is only One God.

That's not true. Until a god establishes Himself as The God, every option that has ever been invented by humanity, including 'none of the above', is still on the table as a possibility.

The God of Abraham, as described in The Torah, The New Testament and/or The Qur'an isn't even described in an original story.

Is it not allowed in your Christian sect to call the God who enslaves you by his proper name and title?

 

[zaangalewa]

Ecclesiates 3:3 -- ... a time to kill, a time to heal ...

... a time to be killed, a time to be healed ...

What about the death penalty?

From

Divine Institutes, Book VI (Of True Worship) by
Lucius Caecilius Firmianus Lactantius

Chapter 20. Of the Senses, and Their Pleasures in the Brutes and in Man; And of Pleasures of the Eyes, and Spectacles.

"For when Godforbids us to kill, He not only prohibits us from open violence, which is not even allowed by the public laws, but He warns us against the commission of those things which are esteemed lawful among men. Thus it will be neither lawful for a just man to engage in warfare, since his warfare is justice itself, nor to accuse any one of a capital charge, because it makes no difference whether you put a man to death by word, or rather by the sword, since it is the act of putting to death itself which is prohibited. Therefore, with regard to this precept of God, there ought to be no exception at all; but that it is always unlawful to put to death a man, whom God willed to be a sacred animal."

So you agree the Bible says killing other human beings is a sacrilege?

It sounds like he agrees with you.

However the notion itself is false.

As Ecclesiastes tells us, there is a time for killing.

... There's also a time to be killed and a time to be healed - but not everyone will be killed and everyone - also the healed - have to die a first death. The real problem is the second death. The second death is the risk for everyone who kills.

“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when the plowman shall overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him who sows the seed; the mountains shall drip sweet wine, and all the hills shall flow with it.
Amos 9,13

 

[zaangalewa]

Indeed Socrates did love Xanthippe but not enough to flee Athens and take her with him.

This is what Aristotle was ultimately forced to do.

And Themistocles.

Athens was a dangerous town.

Did you say something now? Socrates did not like to flee. I don't know wether Xanthippe still lived when this had happened. And I don't know any Catholic who knows not Socrates and the simple form of his sentence "The people see in me an authority, because I am able to say on very good reasons, why I don't know something special". It's interesting to find out, why someone not knows something concrete, although he is convinced he knows something.

Xanthippe was at Socrates' execution.

You need to read more Plato.

Perhaps one more reason to die for him? ... And I never read Platon. Unfortunatelly I don't speak Greek and I feel myselve to old to start to learn now the ancient greek language. I'm very bad in learning foreign languages and my Latin is a catastrophe too.

He was judged with 281 votes of 501 (Guilty: 56%) . After he discussed about an alternative judgement instead of death the final vote was 361 of 501 (death penalty: 72%). Seems to me it was his intention to die. He tried for sure not to calm down his judges. Maybe this was a better solution not only for him and his philosophy but also for his wife and his three sons and/or Athens.

Why is Socrates in your ideas about the world an antithese to your mother and the holy catholic church?

 

[Divine Wind]

But that is under the Old Covenant.

True, but many Christians, especially Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and the like, often cherry-pick from the "Old Covenant" to push their political agenda.

 

[Divine Wind]

You need a check up from the neck up. There is no god. You are hallucinating all that crap.

And you know this for certain how? The voices in your head say it is so? This because you believe Richard Dawkins? Because you firmly believe it to be so since God didn't give you a pony for Christmas?

 

[Divine Wind]

My mother and the Catholic Church -- it was a combined effort.

But Socrates set me free.

Good. Socrates believed in an afterlife. He mixed spirituality with philosophy.

Plato’s Phaedo: The Spirituality of Socrates - Classical Wisdom Weekly
.....Socrates’ first thesis is the Argument of Opposites. Everything comes to be from its opposite, in the way that ‘Tallness’ comes to be only from ‘Shortness’. With this logic, life can only come from death and vice versa. This would imply that life and death do not have a definitive end, but exist in a perpetual cycle.

The second, more famous concept, is the Theory of Recollection, which is dealt with much more thoroughly in Plato’s Meno. This argument is that we do not learn, only remember knowledge we’ve had before we were born. It can be hard for modern readers to swallow this thought, but it is important to distinguish fact from form. Socrates is not advocating that we ‘remember’ things like: when did the Peloponnesian war begin? Especially if it did not happen until after we were conceived. Instead, it is the idea that within us is an innate, built in ability to distinguish the essential concepts of Beauty, Equality and the like.

In regards to the immortality of the soul, this theory proves to Socrates and his friends that the soul existed before the body.

The third idea is the Argument of Affinity. It is the categorization of things that are invisible, indivisible and immortal versus those that are material, dissolvable and mortal. The body is of the latter, the spirit of the former. Therefore, the soul can not cease.

At this moment, the two other Pythagorean philosophers in the dialogue put Socrates on his back foot with strong rebuttals. Think about a musical instrument, says Simmias, the beauty of ‘Harmony’ only exists with the tangible structure of the lyre, same as the soul and the body. While Cebes agrees that the soul is long living and can exist after the physical form has died, he is not yet convinced that it is immortal.

Socrates concedes that these are excellent points, and so brings out his final and most formidable notion. The cornerstone of his winning argument is the Theory of the Forms. It is one of Plato’s most important contributions and it proposes that greater abstract concepts exist as immaterial and unchanging ideas, such as courage or Justice or Beauty or Goodness, and that all worldly items take in these forms.

The soul, therefore, partakes of the form of “Life” and is in fact an essential property of the soul. Consequently it can never die.

Socrates concludes his arguments with a myth that describes the concept of an afterlife. Throughout his whole conversation, however, he has sprinkled references to where he feels his spirit will go next.

Relaying: “That soul, I say, herself invisible, departs to the invisible world to the divine and immortal and rational: thither arriving, she lives in bliss and is released from the error and folly of men, their fears and wild passions and all other human ills, and forever dwells, as they say of the initiated, in company with the gods.”

This is the reason why Socrates does not fear death. Like more contemporary believers, he is convinced that his future spiritual life will be better than his current physical existence. In fact, as a lover of wisdom and truth, his body only distracts him from finding reality......

 

[HUGGY]

You need a check up from the neck up. There is no god. You are hallucinating all that crap.

And you know this for certain how? The voices in your head say it is so? This because you believe Richard Dawkins? Because you firmly believe it to be so since God didn't give you a pony for Christmas?

Nope. I had a Montana cutting horse as a youngster. His name was "Monty". Awesome horse.

Who is R. Dawkins?

There is no god because there is no evidence other than the voices in religist's heads. Atheists don't have those kinds of hallucinations.

Most people are terrified of their mortality therefor they cling desperately to any fraud that promises more than this life. I am content to live now and experience this life. I don't need some obvious fairy tale to make my life meaningful or hold power over me in trade for a ridiculous impossible payoff called heaven. I have a pretty good moral compass and do not have to be threatened with fire and brimstone to do the right thing.

 

[Divine Wind]

There is no god because there is no evidence other than the voices in religist's heads. Atheists don't have those kinds of hallucinations.

Most people are terrified of their mortality therefor they cling desperately to any fraud that promises more than this life. I am content to live now and experience this life. I don't need some obvious fairy tale to make my life meaningful or hold power over me in trade for a ridiculous impossible payoff called heaven. I have a pretty good moral compass and do not have to be threatened with fire and brimstone to do the right thing.

An interesting delusion. Cute.

The old "people are terrified of their mortality" may apply to some people, but to apply it to 96%+ of humanity is a stretch at best. IMO, you're whistling in the dark assuring yourself that, even though you are afraid of your own mortality, at least you are smarter and more "real" than 96% of humanity. Fine. Believe your own narrow viewpoint.

IMO, no single religion holds all the answers to existence. At best they offer a path to greater spiritual awareness. Certainly not all the answers behind death's door. Some may want to believe it does, but they're just like you: whistling in the dark.

 

[HUGGY]

There is no god because there is no evidence other than the voices in religist's heads. Atheists don't have those kinds of hallucinations.

Most people are terrified of their mortality therefor they cling desperately to any fraud that promises more than this life. I am content to live now and experience this life. I don't need some obvious fairy tale to make my life meaningful or hold power over me in trade for a ridiculous impossible payoff called heaven. I have a pretty good moral compass and do not have to be threatened with fire and brimstone to do the right thing.

An interesting delusion. Cute.

The old "people are terrified of their mortality" may apply to some people, but to apply it to 96%+ of humanity is a stretch at best. IMO, you're whistling in the dark assuring yourself that, even though you are afraid of your own mortality, at least you are smarter and more "real" than 96% of humanity. Fine. Believe your own narrow viewpoint.

IMO, no single religion holds all the answers to existence. At best they offer a path to greater spiritual awareness. Certainly not all the answers behind death's door. Some may want to believe it does, but they're just like you: whistling in the dark.

Where did you come up with 96+%? That isn't my statement. I wouldn't waste any time "whistling" in the light or dark. Death doesn't concern me much. I spend very little time thinking about it, if at all.

I spend my time just thinking and doing what are within my abilities to control. Yesterday I bought a tire changer and professional tire repair materials then installed it because I'm tired of paying to have flat tires repaired. My Cadillac has two rear tires that seem to be magnets for nails and screws. Today I will repair the tires and bleed the brakes. I didn't spend an instant yesterday or today thinking about religion or death other than what I have posted here. My world is all about practical solutions. It seems there is always something one can improve.

I do spend a lot of time caring for and training my dogs. Dogs are great. They don't waste any of my time blabbering about fairy tales.

 

[Divine Wind]

... Where did you come up with 96+%? That isn't my statement. I wouldn't waste any time "whistling" in the light or dark. ...

I gave the figure of 96% based on science. You should read more. As for you whistling in the dark, we will have to agree to disgree since I think you clearly are doing so based on the fact you have no facts to back up your beliefs.

10 facts about atheists
1The share of Americans who identify as atheists has roughly doubled in the past several years. Pew Research Center’s 2014 Religious Landscape Study found that 3.1% of American adults say they are atheists when asked about their religious identity, up from 1.6% in a similarly large survey in 2007. An additional 4.0% of Americans call themselves agnostics, up from 2.4% in 2007.

2Atheists, in general, are more likely to be male and younger than the overall population; 68% are men, and the median age of atheist adults in the U.S. is 34 (compared with 46 for all U.S. adults). Atheists also are more likely to be white (78% are Caucasian vs. 66% for the general public) and highly educated: About four-in-ten atheists (43%) have a college degree, compared with 27% of the general public.

3Self-identified atheists tend to be aligned with the Democratic Party and with political liberalism. About two-thirds of atheists (69%) identify as Democrats (or lean in that direction), and a majority (56%) call themselves political liberals(compared with just one-in-ten who say they are conservatives). Atheists overwhelmingly favor same-sex marriage (92%) and legal abortion (87%). In addition, three-quarters (74%) say that government aid to the poor does more good than harm.

4Although the literal definition of “atheist” is “a person who believes that God does not exist,” according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, 8% of those who call themselves atheists also say they believe in God or a universal spirit. Indeed, 2% say they are “absolutely certain” about the existence of God or a universal spirit. Alternatively, there are many people who fit the dictionary definition of “atheist” but do not call themselves atheists. About three times as many Americans say they do not believe in God or a universal spirit (9%) as say they are atheists (3%).

FWIW, I was an atheist from about 13 to 17. Not a "Bible thumper" by any means, but I certainly and truly believe there is more to existence than what we see in front of our noses.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I have come to the realization that I never deserved to be born, that I never deserved to be born again, and that I never deserved to be resurrected.

All of that is a gift from God, freely given in the abundance of His love, freely given in the abundance of His grace.

Why is that a gift from God?

Because like that to which Charles Darwin admitted, irreducible complexity has been shown, eliminating any random chance as explanation of the order of things.

Charles Darwin as a man of science endowed with reason and intellect could be shown that what has been foretold as the Day of the Lord is only 46 days hence, that faith in God is a gift from God, and that without faith one cannot perceive beyond the senses, but the choice to believe remains with the individual.

I have come to the realization that I never deserved to be born, that I never deserved to be born again, and that I never deserved to be resurrected.

All of that is a gift from God, freely given in the abundance of His love, freely given in the abundance of His grace.

If God gives it as a gift, why does he then take it away?

Firstly, there is no "if" because God does not do anything out of necessity, He hasn't any needs.

The Biblical account of Job is a good place to start, Job 1:21-22 :

21 He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD." 22 Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

Although God afflicted Job severely, Job was being tested by his Creator, and because Job believed, God blessed him more abundantly.

The formula for God's blessing is threefold :

1) He lifts up that which He is going to bless;
2) Then He breaks it;
3) And then He presses it down.

Zechariah 13:8-9 :

…8 "It will come about in all the land," Declares the LORD, "That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it. 9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "

That "third part" is the foretelling of Jesus Christ's Redemption and the General Resurrection of the Dead.

I like the story of Job because it is an exercise in courage.

I like the story of the Good Samaritan better however because it shows us how we should act towards others.

Both are useful ideals -- both Job and the Good Samaritan.

But many Christians, you have to suspect, ignore both.

Sorry if you had some bad experiences.

Like Jesus said, there are wheat and tares sowed together.

You see people who claim to be Christian on this board, and they're slamming gay people and all other sorts of people, not very Christian in my mind, but then they'll justify anything, I mean, they justified the invasion of Iraq for foowk's sake.

 

[Edward_Palamar]

True, but many Christians, especially Fundamentalists, Evangelicals and the like, often cherry-pick from the "Old Covenant" to push their political agenda.

Could you give an example?

 

[Divine Wind]

Could you give an example?

Gay marriage, racism, subjugation of women and putting the Ten Commandments in courtrooms all done while munching down on a BBQ Pork sandwich.