Zone1 Why I believe the Catholic Church is the little horn of the Book of Daniel

[surada]

Who cares. You were wrong about Daniel and about the destruction desolation of the temple that didn't happen in Daniel's time.

I said nothing about the destruction of the temple. Antiochus IV Epiphanies defiled the temple with pig sacrifices and statues of Zeus. He made it an Abomination that was as desolate.

You're skipping a big piece of important history. . It wasn't invented by Joseph Smith.

 

[surada]

Sounds like 7th day adventist stuff

There was no Catholic Church until the fourth century. The little Horn is Antiochus IV.

 

[surada]

This is a great article on when the Book of Daniel was written:

When Was The Book of Daniel Written?

Antiochus IV (Epiphanes), the king of Syria, captured Jerusalem in 167 BC and desecrated the Temple by offering the sacrifice of a pig on an altar to Zeus (the Abomination of Desolation). In seeking to prohibit Judaism and Hellenize the Jews, Antiochus forbade their religious practices and commanded that copies of the Law be burned, all of which is related by Josephus in the Antiquities of the Jews (XII.5.4).

"he [Antiochus] got possession of the city by treachery; at which time he spared not so much as those that admitted him into it, on account of the riches that lay in the temple; but, led by his covetous inclination, (for he saw there was in it a great deal of gold, and many ornaments that had been dedicated to it of very great value,) and in order to plunder its wealth, he ventured to break the league he had made.

So he left the temple bare, and took away the golden candlesticks, and the golden altar, and table, and the altar; and did not abstain from even the veils, which were made of fine linen and scarlet. He also emptied it of its secret treasures, and left nothing at all remaining; and by this means cast the Jews into great lamentation, for he forbade them to offer those daily sacrifices which they used to offer to God, according to the law.

And when he had pillaged the whole city, some of the inhabitants he slew, and some he carried captive, together with their wives and children, so that the multitude of those captives that were taken alive amounted to about ten thousand.

He also burnt down the finest buildings; and when he had overthrown the city walls, he built a citadel in the lower part of the city, for the place was high, and overlooked the temple; on which account he fortified it with high walls and towers, and put into it a garrison of Macedonians.

However, in that citadel dwelt the impious and wicked part of the multitude, from whom it proved that the citizens suffered many and sore calamities. And when the king had built an idol altar upon God's altar, he slew swine upon it, and so offered a sacrifice neither according to the law, nor the Jewish religious worship in that country.

He also compelled them to forsake the worship which they paid their own God, and to adore those whom he took to be gods; and made them build temples, and raise idol altars in every city and village, and offer swine upon them every day.

He also commanded them not to circumcise their sons, and threatened to punish any that should be found to have transgressed his injunction. He also appointed overseers, who should compel them to do what he commanded. And indeed many Jews there were who complied with the king's commands, either voluntarily, or out of fear of the penalty that was denounced.

But the best men, and those of the noblest souls, did not regard him, but did pay a greater respect to the customs of their country than concern as to the punishment which he threatened to the disobedient; on which account they every day underwent great miseries and bitter torments; for they were whipped with rods, and their bodies were torn to pieces, and were crucified, while they were still alive, and breathed.

They also strangled those women and their sons whom they had circumcised, as the king had appointed, hanging their sons about their necks as they were upon the crosses. And if there were any sacred book of the law found, it was destroyed, and those with whom they were found miserably perished also."

Such desecration and persecution prompted the identification of Antiochus as a prototype of the Antichrist. And what is the physical description of this figure?

Antiochus IV

 

[Cougarbear]

I said nothing about the destruction of the temple. Antiochus IV Epiphanies defiled the temple with pig sacrifices and statues of Zeus. He made it an Abomination that was as desolate.

You're skipping a big piece of important history. . It wasn't invented by Joseph Smith.

Daniel said destruction. You only wrote defile and this only told half the story to fit his prophecy into your time frame to discredit “prophecy.” Daniel clearly therefore was speaking of a time in the future when the temple would be desolated, destroyed. Then he spoke of the Lord’s kingdom being restored in the latter days. Therefore, Joseph Smith did not invent this Church. It was foretold in his prophecies.

 

[surada]

Daniel said destruction. You only wrote defile and this only told half the story to fit his prophecy into your time frame to discredit “prophecy.” Daniel clearly therefore was speaking of a time in the future when the temple would be desolated, destroyed. Then he spoke of the Lord’s kingdom being restored in the latter days. Therefore, Joseph Smith did not invent this Church. It was foretold in his prophecies.

Please post the verse.

 

[surada]

Abomination of desolation" is a phrase from the Book of Daniel describing the pagan sacrifices with which the 2nd century BC Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes replaced the twice-daily offering in the Jewish temple, or alternatively the altar on which such offerings were made.

Between 156 and 164 BC ab
Antiochus IV Epiphanies defiled and profaned the temple. In Matthew it says that when you see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel flee Jerusalem to the mountains.. They went to Pella and avoided the tribulation.

All you've done is skip a big chunk of important history.

1 Maccabees - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[onefour1]

As a layman, with no formal or church instruction on this, just by reading it alone or with the hubby, I thought the 4th beast was the NEW Roman empire. An Old Empire that includes near all of Europe and the NEW Roman Empire to arise, could be America, us, who are the descendants primarily of the old Roman EMPIRE from creation.... We became the new little horn, the little horn that arose out of it??? .

I think the thing that is quite convincing to me is that He comes up during the reign of the 10 kingdoms and that 3 of those kingdoms fall to the little horn. The Papacy came up when the 10 kings existed and 3 of them fell to the Papacy, ie the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. Also if you follow in Daniel, he defines Babylon as the first beast, and he also defines the Medes/Persians as another and the Greeks as another. They came in that order and the fourth kingdom that arose after that was Rome. Thus the 10 kingdoms would need to come out of Rome and the little horn would come up during their power and subdue 3 of the 10 kingdoms.

 

[Care4all]

I think the thing that is quite convincing to me is that He comes up during the reign of the 10 kingdoms and that 3 of those kingdoms fall to the little horn. The Papacy came up when the 10 kings existed and 3 of them fell to the Papacy, ie the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. Also if you follow in Daniel, he defines Babylon as the first beast, and he also defines the Medes/Persians as another and the Greeks as another. They came in that order and the fourth kingdom that arose after that was Rome. Thus the 10 kingdoms would need to come out of Rome and the little horn would come up during their power and subdue 3 of the 10 kingdoms.

But there is no power there in Rome anymore? ...the Vatican is in a weakened state....the predicted "falling away of the Church" has affected them as much as most other Christian churches? It doesn't seem like the weakened Catholic Church is where the anti Christ and all of his worldly power would come from...? IF I even understand or even think I understand any of it!

 

[onefour1]

But there is no power there in Rome anymore? ...the Vatican is in a weakened state....the predicted "falling away of the Church" has affected them as much as most other Christian churches? It doesn't seem like the weakened Catholic Church is where the anti Christ and all of his worldly power would come from...? IF I even understand or even think I understand any of it!

Well, I definitely think that it is good to question it and also good to study it. I also think that it is interesting that it is said that after subduing 3 kingdoms, the Papacy reached it power in 538. Then there is the prophesy of continuing 1260 days. Day are changed to years as some verses tell us for prophesy and if you add 1260 to 538 you get 1798. In that year Napoleon and his general Berthier took the civil power of the Papacy away from them and some consider this the fulfillment of when the beast that was, then was not.

Revelation 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So I look to see if the Catholic church in these latter days will regain civil power again at some time or if it is the false prophet who aligns with the beast. The Vatican has obtained their own country in these last days and does have a degree of civil power again but nothing that is a threat as of yet. We live in an era where they want global government and a one world religion. We are yet to see if these forces come about. The WEF and the Catholic Church seem to be wanting this to occur.

 

[surada]

I think the thing that is quite convincing to me is that He comes up during the reign of the 10 kingdoms and that 3 of those kingdoms fall to the little horn. The Papacy came up when the 10 kings existed and 3 of them fell to the Papacy, ie the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. Also if you follow in Daniel, he defines Babylon as the first beast, and he also defines the Medes/Persians as another and the Greeks as another. They came in that order and the fourth kingdom that arose after that was Rome. Thus the 10 kingdoms would need to come out of Rome and the little horn would come up during their power and subdue 3 of the 10 kingdoms.

The four horns are the sons and heirs of Alexander the Great.. the Romans didn't conquer Jerusalem until 63 BC.

 

[surada]

I think the thing that is quite convincing to me is that He comes up during the reign of the 10 kingdoms and that 3 of those kingdoms fall to the little horn. The Papacy came up when the 10 kings existed and 3 of them fell to the Papacy, ie the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths. Also if you follow in Daniel, he defines Babylon as the first beast, and he also defines the Medes/Persians as another and the Greeks as another. They came in that order and the fourth kingdom that arose after that was Rome. Thus the 10 kingdoms would need to come out of Rome and the little horn would come up during their power and subdue 3 of the 10 kingdoms.

We're talking about horns not beasts.

There were actually four generals who succeeded Alexander: Antigonus, Cassander, Ptolemy, and Seleucus.

Seleucus is Antiochus IV Epiphanies. Rome conquered Jerusalem in 63 BC.

 

[onefour1]

The four horns are the sons and heirs of Alexander the Great.. the Romans didn't conquer Jerusalem until 63 BC.

Not sure what you are talking about when you say four horns, can you quote a scripture? True, the Romans did conquer Jerusalem until after the days of Christ. That is why Jesus spoke of the Abomination of Desolation as a future event in Matthew 24.

 

[onefour1]

We're talking about horns not beasts.

There were actually four generals who succeeded Alexander: Antigonus, Cassander, Ptolemy, and Seleucus.

Seleucus is Antiochus IV Epiphanies. Rome conquered Jerusalem in 63 BC.

My conversation was with Care4All and had nothing to do with your conversations. I don't know what 4 generals has to do with the conversation I was having with Care4All. You must think everything said on this board is about you. Seleucus was not Antiochus IV Ephiphanes. Selecus ruled from 305–281 B.C. and Antiochus IV Epiphanes ruled from 175–164 B.C. (see List of Ruler of the Ancient Greek World).

 

[surada]

Isaiah prophecied the birth of our Savior, the Messiah. A virgin birth. Even Jesus Christ.
Isaiah also said a marvelous book would come out of the ground in the last days. The Book of Mormon certainly looks like it could be that book who was translated by an unlearned man, Joseph Smith when a learned expert could not. Ezekiel also wrote about this same book as being the book of Joseph to be one in our hands with the book of Judah (Bible) in the last days. There are many others as well.

No he didn't. Isaiah is writing about Israel not Jesus. Read it .

Emmanuel was Hezekiah not Jesus.

 

[surada]

Not sure what you are talking about when you say four horns, can you quote a scripture? True, the Romans did conquer Jerusalem until after the days of Christ. That is why Jesus spoke of the Abomination of Desolation as a future event in Matthew 24.

The Romans conquered Jerusalem in 63 BC... Before the birth of Christ. Don't you have any education?


The destruction of the temple in August of 70 AD was the second abomination of Desolation.

 

[surada]

Dreams and visions of Daniel are not of the past. They are future events

The Books of the Maccabees | Definition, Contents, & Facts

The Books of the Maccabees, four books, none of which is in the Hebrew Bible but all of which appear in some manuscripts of the Septuagint. The first two books only are part of canonical scripture in the Septuagint and the Vulgate and are included in the Protestant Apocrypha.

www.britannica.com

 

[surada]

Isaiah prophecied the birth of our Savior, the Messiah. A virgin birth. Even Jesus Christ.
Isaiah also said a marvelous book would come out of the ground in the last days. The Book of Mormon certainly looks like it could be that book who was translated by an unlearned man, Joseph Smith when a learned expert could not. Ezekiel also wrote about this same book as being the book of Joseph to be one in our hands with the book of Judah (Bible) in the last days. There are many others as well.

Nope. Emmanuel is Hezekiah.

 

[Cougarbear]

No he didn't. Isaiah is writing about Israel not Jesus. Read it .

Emmanuel was Hezekiah not Jesus.

So, Hezekiah was a virgin and gave birth? How stupid can you be...

 

[Cougarbear]

The Books of the Maccabees | Definition, Contents, & Facts

The Books of the Maccabees, four books, none of which is in the Hebrew Bible but all of which appear in some manuscripts of the Septuagint. The first two books only are part of canonical scripture in the Septuagint and the Vulgate and are included in the Protestant Apocrypha.

www.britannica.com

You lose so much because of your normalcy bias. The Holy Ghost cannot work in you.

 

[surada]

So, Hezekiah was a virgin and gave birth? How stupid can you be...

I'm surprised at you.