Zone1 We can all blame Martin Luther for the disaster that is the Catholic Church today

[1miseryindex]

Go read his 95 Theses. Most of them had to do with the way the medieval Church was selling tickets to Heaven with indulgences. You know, so that the Pope and the church could get richer.

I am a Lutheran. Your hate is pathetic.

yours is pathetic

and your knowledge of history more so

 

[Flash]

yours is pathetic

and your knowledge of history more so

I have a homework assignment for you.

Go read the 95 Thesis and then tell me which ones you specifically disagree with.

 

[hadit]

I have a new policy, somewhat similar to the old one

I don't respond if there is a gratuitous insult OR

an accusation based on a presumption that you know anything about me at all.

Only God knows me

You accused me of something and I'd like to see the evidence. Do you actually have any or are you just making it all up?

 

[1miseryindex]

I have a homework assignment for you.

Go read the 95 Thesis and then tell me which ones you specifically disagree with.

already done,by the Catholic Church

You don't seem to know that the CC only rejected roughly half of them

 

[1miseryindex]

You accused me of something and I'd like to see the evidence. Do you actually have any or are you just making it all up?

you accuse me of all kinds of bad intentions and bad thoughts and just bad everything

Again, u just seem to like to hear yourself yammer

 

[Flash]

already done,by the Catholic Church

You don't seem to know that the CC only rejected roughly half of them

I want to hear your analysis.

Most of the points Luther made had to do with the goddamn medieval era Catholic leadership selling indulgences. In other words if you make the Pope richer you get to go to Heaven. If not then tough shit. That was the way they did it 500 years ago. Deeds for salvation is against the basic Christian doctrine of Faith and Grace.

Luther didn't want to play that game no more. Good for him.

 

[1miseryindex]

I want to hear your analysis.

Most of the points Luther made had to do with the goddamn medieval era Catholic leadership selling indulgences. In other words if you make the Pope richer you get to go to Heaven. If not then tough shit. That was the way they did it 500 years ago. Deeds for salvation is against the basic Christian doctrine of Faith and Grace.

Luther didn't want to play that game no more. Good for him.

well, that is the protestant side of what happened.

I doubt you know the Catholic side... And why should u try to find it? Everyone is cool with Catholic bashing so you don't have to ... in order to be popular

 

[Flash]

well, that is the protestant side of what happened.

I doubt you know the Catholic side... And why should u try to find it? Everyone is cool with Catholic bashing so you don't have to ... in order to be popular

I am not bashing Catholic. Well, we Lutheran do on Reformation Day but that is only one day a year.

Just stating the facts. Medieval Catholic leadership was using the church to accumulate wealth and 500 years ago Luther got tired of that crap and wanted to return to Biblical Christianity.

Christianity is rooted in Faith and Grace and not paying off the Pope as penitence.

Go read his 95 points. Most of them had to do with the sins of the church selling Salvation.

By the way, a few years ago the Catholic Church removed Luther's excommunication. Even they know he was right.

 

[hadit]

you accuse me of all kinds of bad intentions and bad thoughts and just bad everything

Again, u just seem to like to hear yourself yammer

Look, the bottom line here is that you are accusing me of doing bad things, but you won't produce any incidents where I did so. I am pretty careful to not make baseless accusations, and I cannot address something you will not specify. I'm sorry, but unless you can produce something I did, I'll just have to assume you're making it up because I'm frustrating you.

 

[beautress]

Luther (former Catholic priest/excommunicated heretic) was the first to seriously rupture the Church, claiming to set up other "churches" not founded by Christ but by him, a mere human being, a pattern that persists to this day since people no longer even accept the notion that there IS such a thing as "the original Church" (since they can't find it, &/or won't look for it....)

Luther (et al) started the first rupture that led to all the other ruptures, which then led to what we have today, which is

one word

Francis



This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw recently:

Don't blame me, I voted for Trump

Don't blame me, I didn't disrupt the Church. Never would it enter my mind to drastically change --liberalize--the Church Christ Himself established on Earth....!

(I guess I just don't have the balls Luther did... yet, balls or not, he is very likely burning in Hell)

Just to be clear, like it or not, God's first church was not the Catholic Church, but was the Jewish church. Later on, a Jewish rabbi named Jesus Christ taught Jewish scriptures so that the common man could understand more clearly what the scriptures required. This incensed his fellow Jewish leaders who angered over people of the church following this amazing rabbi whose friends considered him God's son. They shifted their tithes over to support God's beloved son. NOTHING Jesus said was going to change the Jewish leaders who resourced scriptures they said made Jesus some kind of Satanic person which was far from the truth due to Jesus faithfulness to God the Father, and not the other Jewish rabbis. They insisted that Rome kill him for religious crimes, so to calm the Jewish faith sentenced Christ to be sentenced to death by nailing his hands and feet to a cross and raised it high for all to see to appease the underpaid clergy of the Jewish faith as Jesus was tortured considerably before a lance pierced his side which killed him in short order considering the torture that would take longer to end his life. That's my opinion, and all I can say is "How sad."

Today's people are not guilty of the death of God's beloved son who is now lining in Heaven with the holy Father whom Jesus advised to pray to following to his crucifixion. Christ appeared to his disciples and 3 women who were in charge of caring for his burial when they were informed that he was risen from the dead and on his way to lecture his deciples on their new life, missions, and commanded them to tell the world his story. His love changed an otherwise hateful atmosphere into a life of love for all and faithfulness to God and God alone as evidenced by his command that they pray to the Father for everything, and he even gave them a model we call the Lord's Prayer which says, "Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen." That is from memory and may use language that is different but hopefully enough the same as Christ spike it. We have to develop faith in God by reading the Word, which we commonly call the Bible which reminds us of an old testament before Christ was born, and a New Testament which tells the story of Jesus from the star that beckoned wise men to visit the stable where the Virgin Mary gave birth to Christ who lived a perfect life, taught thousands gathered on a mountainside to tell people the meaning of scriptures and to live a life of doing for others with no fear of death since the would experience life everlasting for their total trust in God and living according to the Word, which is what Jesus said. That's my understanding, and I rejoice in God's mercy. HIS love and faithfulness to those who love and believe in Him always him always.

My prayer for the day is that God will accept with love all those who love him because they have read the Word of God in the Bible that, according to my Grandfather, urged me to read in it, pray for peace and good will to men, and also he wanted me to be Presbyterian all my life because our family history goes back to the time our great great great great grandpa landed in Massachusetts on a boat from England that transported our Holland Dutch ancestor. I eventually did what he told me when I grew up. Our church doesn't breathe down anyone's neck and encourages every person to pray often and be our own priest which means we live by the Bible teachings in the old and the new covenants. As Jesus said, he did not come to have people to forget the laws of God, but to understand the good in them. I'd say Christ did a pretty good job, and the challenge to us is to love even our enemies as Christ taught by his actions during his crucifixion saying, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." His meaning was that we must love one another no matter what. Sometimes, it's easy to forgive and let it go, and sometimes it isn't so easy. It helps to take it to the Lord in prayer.

 

[beautress]

Just to be clear, like it or not, God's first church was not the Catholic Church, but was the Jewish church. Later on, a Jewish rabbi named Jesus Christ taught Jewish scriptures so that the common man could understand more clearly what the scriptures required. This incensed his fellow Jewish leaders who angered over people of the church following this amazing rabbi whose friends considered him God's son. They shifted their tithes over to support God's beloved son. NOTHING Jesus said was going to change the Jewish leaders who resourced scriptures they said made Jesus some kind of Satanic person which was far from the truth due to Jesus faithfulness to God the Father, and not the other Jewish rabbis. They insisted that Rome kill him for religious crimes, so to calm the Jewish faith sentenced Christ to be sentenced to death by nailing his hands and feet to a cross and raised it high for all to see to appease the underpaid clergy of the Jewish faith as Jesus was tortured considerably before a lance pierced his side which killed him in short order considering the torture that would take longer to end his life. That's my opinion, and all I can say is "How sad."

Today's people are not guilty of the death of God's beloved son who is now lining in Heaven with the holy Father whom Jesus advised to pray to following to his crucifixion. Christ appeared to his disciples and 3 women who were in charge of caring for his burial when they were informed that he was risen from the dead and on his way to lecture his deciples on their new life, missions, and commanded them to tell the world his story. His love changed an otherwise hateful atmosphere into a life of love for all and faithfulness to God and God alone as evidenced by his command that they pray to the Father for everything, and he even gave them a model we call the Lord's Prayer which says, "Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen." That is from memory and may use language that is different but hopefully enough the same as Christ spike it. We have to develop faith in God by reading the Word, which we commonly call the Bible which reminds us of an old testament before Christ was born, and a New Testament which tells the story of Jesus from the star that beckoned wise men to visit the stable where the Virgin Mary gave birth to Christ who lived a perfect life, taught thousands gathered on a mountainside to tell people the meaning of scriptures and to live a life of doing for others with no fear of death since the would experience life everlasting for their total trust in God and living according to the Word, which is what Jesus said. That's my understanding, and I rejoice in God's mercy. HIS love and faithfulness to those who love and believe in Him always him always.

My prayer for the day is that God will accept with love all those who love him because they have read the Word of God in the Bible that, according to my Grandfather, urged me to read in it, pray for peace and good will to men, and also he wanted me to be Presbyterian all my life because our family history goes back to the time our great great great great grandpa landed in Massachusetts on a boat from England that transported our Holland Dutch ancestor. I eventually did what he told me when I grew up. Our church doesn't breathe down anyone's neck and encourages every person to pray often and be our own priest which means we live by the Bible teachings in the old and the new covenants. As Jesus said, he did not come to have people to forget the laws of God, but to understand the good in them. I'd say Christ did a pretty good job, and the challenge to us is to love even our enemies as Christ taught by his actions during his crucifixion saying, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." His meaning was that we must love one another no matter what. Sometimes, it's easy to forgive and let it go, and sometimes it isn't so easy. It helps to take it to the Lord in prayer.

Oh yeah, and I forgot to say I let it go with the Catholics when I took some food to give to the Little Sisters of the poor who fed the hungry in my community in Casper WY 50 years ago, because my church didn't have a food closet. The Bible I read says to lend a helping hand to the poor. I will always love the love and grace of my Catholic friends who called themselves "Little sisters of the poor." They do what God requires and they never stop until they die. I will love them and their church forever. They changed my Presbyterian life to staying close as I can to the Bible. Our gifts in My church tend to send money to the far corners of the country and even to countries overseas without ever seeing them in person. I have faith that God loves us all who struggle to always do the right thing.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Luther (former Catholic priest/excommunicated heretic) was the first to seriously rupture the Church, claiming to set up other "churches" not founded by Christ but by him, a mere human being, a pattern that persists to this day since people no longer even accept the notion that there IS such a thing as "the original Church" (since they can't find it, &/or won't look for it....)

Luther (et al) started the first rupture that led to all the other ruptures, which then led to what we have today, which is

one word

Francis



This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw recently:

Don't blame me, I voted for Trump

Don't blame me, I didn't disrupt the Church. Never would it enter my mind to drastically change --liberalize--the Church Christ Himself established on Earth....!

(I guess I just don't have the balls Luther did... yet, balls or not, he is very likely burning in Hell)

So you wish to restart the Thirty Years War?

 

[1miseryindex]

Just to be clear, like it or not, God's first church was not the Catholic Church, but was the Jewish church. Later on, a Jewish rabbi named Jesus Christ taught Jewish scriptures so that the common man could understand more clearly what the scriptures required. This incensed his fellow Jewish leaders who angered over people of the church following this amazing rabbi whose friends considered him God's son. They shifted their tithes over to support God's beloved son. NOTHING Jesus said was going to change the Jewish leaders who resourced scriptures they said made Jesus some kind of Satanic person which was far from the truth due to Jesus faithfulness to God the Father, and not the other Jewish rabbis. They insisted that Rome kill him for

Just to be clear, the Jews had a synagogue, the Christians, a Church

 

[1miseryindex]

I am not bashing Catholic. Well, we Lutheran do on Reformation Day but that is only one day a year.

Just stating the facts. Medieval Catholic leadership was using the church to accumulate wealth and 500 years ago Luther got tired of that crap and wanted to return to Biblical Christianity.

Christianity is rooted in Faith and Grace and not paying off the Pope as penitence.

Go read his 95 points. Most of them had to do with the sins of the church selling Salvation.

By the way, a few years ago the Catholic Church removed Luther's excommunication. Even they know he was right.

another person abysmally ignorant of Church history and Catholicism

WHO KNEW?! (so many of those kind exist?)

 

[beautress]

Just to be clear, the Jews had a synagogue, the Christians, a Church

Thanks , 1mi. I used the term church instead of saying congregation.

 

[ninja007]

The following list give a summation of what we have been trying to emphasize. If the Bible is a Catholic book,

• 1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
• 2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
• 3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
• 4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
• 5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
• 6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
• 7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
• 8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
• 9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
• 10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
• 11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
• 12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
• 13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
• 14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

 

[ninja007]

Roman Catholic Doctrinal evolution: Doctrinal flip flops:

"Has the Catholic Church ever changed its teaching? No, for 2000 years the Church has taught the same things which Jesus taught." (Catholic Catechism for Adults, p. 57).

"It is a historical fact the Catholic Church, from the twentieth century back to the first, has not once ceased to teach a doctrine on faith or morals previously held, and with the same interpretation; the church has proved itself infallible." (My Catholic Church, p. 145).

Doctrinal flip flops​

"If only one instance could be given in which the Church ceased to teach a doctrine of faith which had been previously held, that single instance would be the death blow of her claim to infallibility." (Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, p74) "if it be not identical in belief, in government etc., with the primitive Church, then it is not the Church of Christ." (Catholic Facts, 27) "Catholic controversialists soon proved to the Protestants that to be logical and consistent they must admit unwritten tradition." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XV, p. 7)

Officially, before Vatican 2 in 1965 AD, all non-Catholic churchgoers will go to HELL! Today it is different!

Sign of the cross not practiced by apostles but started in 9th century! Tertullian made the sign on the forehead. Today it is different!

53 Roman Catholic Doctrines not found in the Bible (1400 years of doctrinal evolution)

Marriage to non-Catholics was invalid until 1818 AD.

Eucharist: Withholding the communion cup from the laity began in 1416 AD.

Eucharist: Frequency of communion changed from weekly to daily in 500 AD.

Baptism changed from immersion to sprinkling in 1311 AD.

No infant baptism till 4th century.

No Pope was considered infallible until 1870 AD

 

[ninja007]

Roman Catholic Doctrinal evolution:
Introduction of New doctrines not found in The Bible

The key-word that describes the doctrine of Roman Catholics is: CHANGE

Pre-Roman Catholic False teachings
200 AD	Immersion of infants who are dying, but considered sinless. (Tertullian V.12)
250 AD	North Africa region is first to practice infant baptism and reduced the age of baptism from minors to all newborns. This is opposed by other regions.
257 AD	Baptism by sprinkling for adults instead of immersion first used as an exception for those on sick beds, but it caused great dispute.
300 AD	Prayers for the dead
320 AD	Special dress code of the clergy in worship
325 AD	At the general council of Nice, 325, it was proposed indeed, probably by the Western bishop Hosius, to forbid entirely the marriage of priests; but the motion met with strong opposition, and was rejected.
325 AD	The date for Easter was set.
379 AD	Praying to Mary & Saints. (prayers of Ephraim Syrus)
385 AD	In the West, the first prohibition of clerical marriage, which laid claim to universal ecclesiastical authority, proceeded in 385 from the Roman church in the form of a decretal letter of the bishop Siricius to Himerius, bishop of Tarragona in Spain.
389 AD	Mariolatry begins with Gregory Nazianzen, who mentions in a eulogy, how Justina had besought the virgin Mary to protect her virginity.
400 AD	Impossibility of apostasy or once saved always saved, (Augustine XII.9)
416 AD	Infant baptism by immersion commanded of all infants (Council Of Mela, Austin was the principal director)
430 AD	Exhalation of Virgin Mary: "Mother of God" first applied by the Council of Ephesus
502 AD	Special dress code of the Clergy all the time.
500 AD	The "Habit" of Nuns (Black gowns with white tunics)
519 AD	Lent
526 AD	Extreme Unction
593 AD	The Doctrine of Purgatory popularized from the Apocrypha by Gregory the Great
600 AD	First use of Latin in worship (Gregory I)
Beginning of the Orthodox/Roman Catholic church as we know it today in its present organization.
607 AD	First Pope: Boniface III is the first person to take the title of "universal Bishop" by decree of Emperor Phocas.
608 AD	Pope Boniface IV. turns the Pantheon in Rome into a temple of Mary ad martyres: the pagan Olympus into a Christian heaven of gods.
670 AD	Instrumental music: first organ by Pope Vitalian
709 AD	Kissing of Pope Constantine's feet
753 AD	Baptism by sprinkling for those on sick beds officially accepted.
787 AD	Worship of icons and statue approved (2nd council of Nicea)
787 AD	Rome (Latin) and Constantinople (Greek) part ways and begin the drift towards complete split, resulting in two denominations emerging in 1054 AD.
965 AD	Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John XIII
850 AD	Burning of Holy Candles
995 AD	Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV
998 AD	Good Friday: fish only and the eating-red meat forbidden
1009 AD	Holy water
1022 AD	Penance
1054 AD	Roman Catholic church breaks away from the Orthodox church
1054 AD	Roman Catholics officially embrace instrumental music, Orthodox reject instrumental music down to the present time.
1079 AD	Celibacy enforced for priests, bishops, presbyters (Pope Gregory VII)
1090 AD	Rosary beads: invented by Peter the Hermit
1095 AD	Instrumental music
1190 AD	Sale of Indulgences or "tickets to sin" (punishment of sin removed)
1215 AD	Transubstantiation by Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council
1215 AD	Auricular Confession of sins to priests instituted by Pope Innocent III, (Lateran Council)
1215 AD	Mass a Sacrifice of Christ
1217 AD	Adoration and Elevation of Host: ie. communion bread (Pope Honrius III)
1230 AD	Ringing bells at Mass
1251 AD	The Scapular, the brown cloak worn by monks invented by Simon Stock
1268 AD	Priestly power of absolution
1311 AD	Baptism by sprinkling accepted as the universal standard instead of immersion for all, not just the sick. (Council of Ravenna)
1414 AD	Laity no longer offered Lord's cup at communion (Council of Constance)
1439 AD	Purgatory a dogma by the Council of Florence (see 593 AD)
1439 AD	Doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed
1480 AD	The Inquisition (of Spain)
1495 AD	Papal control of marriage rights
1534 AD	Order of Jesuits founded by Loyola
1545 AD	Man-made tradition of church made equal to Bible (Council of Trent)
1545 AD	Apocryphal books added to Bible (Council of Trent)
1546 AD	Justification by human works of merit
1546 AD	Mass universally said in Latin (see 600 AD)
1547 AD	Confirmation
1560 AD	Personal opinions of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed
1864 AD	Syllabus Errorum [Syllabus of Errors] proclaimed that "Catholic countries" could not tolerate other religions, (no freedom of religion), conscience, separation of church and State condemned, asserted the Pope's temporal authority over all civil rulers (Ratified by Pope Pius IX and Vatican Council) condemned
1870 AD	Infallibility of Pope (Vatican council)
1908 AD	All Catholics should be christened into the church
1930 AD	Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XII (see 1864 AD)
1950 AD	Sinners prayer, invented by Billy Sunday and made popular by Billy Graham. (Some Catholics now use this)
1950 AD	Assumption of the body of the Virgin Mary into heaven shortly after her death. (Pope Pius XII)
1954 AD	Immaculate conception of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII
1995 AD	The use of girls in the traditional alter boy duties
1996 AD	Catholics can believe in Evolution (Pope John Paul II)

 

[1miseryindex]

Thanks , 1mi. I used the term church instead of saying congregation.

Jesus mentions Church maybe only once in the New T

Mt 16:18

The only Christian Church that goes back to Jesus and the 12 is the Catholic Church

and of course, there is only ONE Church Christ established. Chaos and confusion are from the devil

 

[The Irish Ram]

Just to be clear, the Jews had a synagogue, the Christians, a Church

Peter's church was filled with Jews. He preached there for years. Thousands were converted. That was 300 years before the Catholic church was established.