Why doesn't Michigan gov. want cops and firefighters to have the right to work?

[LeftCoastVoter]

I agree with OP. This is simply a political exemption.

But the broader move is of course in the right direction.

But if RTW laws are designed to benefit the worker, why would the police and firefighters not want them?

Ok, if not so, then why do only 10% or so of Americans belong to unions? I don't know anybody beefing because they can't get into a union.

laws such as this are designed to limit the ability to unionize and more specifically the ability of current unions to operate. Right-to-work laws weaken unions by making them provide services without being paid for them—forcing certain workers to pay the costs of union representation for all workers.

The average worker—unionized or not—working in a right-to-work state earns approximately $1,500 less per year than a similar worker in a state without such a law, according to a study by the Economic Policy Institute. And that worker is much less likely to receive health and pension benefits. If benefits coverage in non-right-to-work states were lowered to the levels of states with these laws, 2 million fewer workers would receive health insurance and 3.8 million fewer workers would receive pensions nationwide.

The five states with the lowest union membership rates—North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Arkansas, and Louisiana—are right-to-work states and they all have a relatively weak middle classes, with the share of total state income going to the middle 60 percent of households below the national average, according to Census figures.

As Census data indicate, the middle 60 percent of the nation's households received 53.2 percent of the nation's income in 1968, when unions represented nearly 30 percent of workers. In 2011, the middle class received only 45.7 percent of the nation's income—the lowest share on record—as union rates dropped below 12 percent.

Moreover, right-to-work does not reduce unemployment. Indeed, Nevada—a right-to-work state—has the highest unemployment rate in the country. Not surprisingly researchers find that right-to-work has "no significant positive impact whatsoever on employment."

http://www.epi.org/page/-/BriefingPaper300.pdf

 

[saveliberty]

It would be like the military having the right to strike OohPoop.

We're not talking about whether or not cops and firefighters should have the right to strike, that's not what the OP is about. Pay attention! Didn't your teacher ever tell you to read the directions ?


The inquiry at hand relates to the union busting legislation known as "right to work". This law allows employees at a union shop to opt out of paying union dues or agency fees. Michigan just became the 24th state to pass one. Its version of the law exempts police and firefighters. So the question is - why shouldn't policed and firefighters have the right to work?

Think on it for a while. Then answer.

I was answering a question posed by another poster idiot. It was the correct answer and you don't like it. Here's a tissue.

Sorry Mrs. Smith the police are on strike this week, we hope to be out to catch your robber in a week or two...

YOU think on it for a while. Then keep quiet so we don't have to hear stupid.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

It would be like the military having the right to strike OohPoop.

We're not talking about whether or not cops and firefighters should have the right to strike, that's not what the OP is about. Pay attention! Didn't your teacher ever tell you to read the directions ?


The inquiry at hand relates to the union busting legislation known as "right to work". This law allows employees at a union shop to opt out of paying union dues or agency fees. Michigan just became the 24th state to pass one. Its version of the law exempts police and firefighters. So the question is - why shouldn't policed and firefighters have the right to work?

Think on it for a while. Then answer.

I was answering a question posed by another poster idiot.

Really?

It would be like the military having the right to strike OohPoop.

Was that other poster also named OohPooPahDoo?

Really It was the correct answer and you don't like it. Here's a tissue.

Sorry Mrs. Smith the police are on strike this week, we hope to be out to catch your robber in a week or two...

YOU think on it for a while. Then keep quiet so we don't have to hear stupid.

Are you responding to me here, or another poster? Because I've not argued the police should be allowed to strike.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

It's called Ex post facto law
A contract or relationship that existed, before the enactment of the law.
The Cops and Firefighters have a contract that can't be effected or changed because of the new law.

Ex-post facto only applies to criminal matters.

Calder v. Bull - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Clearly they can change existing contracts - because they ARE changing the contracts and relationships that existed before enactment of the law when they are with NON-police and firefighter unions. Are you even paying attention? That's the POINT of the law. It VOIDS certain provisions of union shop agreements without the consent of both parties to the contract.

So sorry, TRY AGAIN

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/deleg_opla_SBills_1466-7_RighttoWork_331538_7.pdf

Read the bottom where it say;
The bills provisions would not apply to

Read the top where it says August 2010. I'm almost certain the recent law isn't the bill you've linked to, as I doubt the Michigan state legislature has been in continuous session for over 2 years.

 

[Seawytch]

It's telling how your question cannot be answered, OohPooPahDoo. The reason that cops and firefighters are exempt is because it's bad law and even the GOP isn't willing to foist bad law on first responders...just on everyone else.

 

[Si modo]

It would be like the military having the right to strike OohPoop.

We're not talking about whether or not cops and firefighters should have the right to strike, that's not what the OP is about. Pay attention! Didn't your teacher ever tell you to read the directions ?


The inquiry at hand relates to the union busting legislation known as "right to work". This law allows employees at a union shop to opt out of paying union dues or agency fees. Michigan just became the 24th state to pass one. Its version of the law exempts police and firefighters. So the question is - why shouldn't policed and firefighters have the right to work?

Think on it for a while. Then answer.

Here's the actual bill. Please identify the line in that bill that exempts police and firefighters.

Thanks.

Additionally, there's this:

LANSING, Mich. -

Attorney General Bill Schuette says he expects the Michigan Civil Service Commission to follow a new right-to-work law as it relates to the state's 35,000 unionized workers.

Schuette tells reporters Thursday the law signed Tuesday by Republican Gov. Rick Snyder applies to public and private workers and he expects potential legal challenges to fail.​

Michigan AG Bill Schuette: Right-to-work applies to state employees | News - Home


You seem quite confused about this.

 

[Si modo]

It's telling how your question cannot be answered, OohPooPahDoo. The reason that cops and firefighters are exempt is because it's bad law and even the GOP isn't willing to foist bad law on first responders...just on everyone else.

They aren't exempt, that's why the question isn't answered.

 

[Seawytch]

It's telling how your question cannot be answered, OohPooPahDoo. The reason that cops and firefighters are exempt is because it's bad law and even the GOP isn't willing to foist bad law on first responders...just on everyone else.

They aren't exempt, that's why the question isn't answered.

GOP defends right-to-work exclusion of cop, fire unions

No, they were excluded from the "right to work" legislation. Don't they have the "right to work"?

 

[Si modo]

It's telling how your question cannot be answered, OohPooPahDoo. The reason that cops and firefighters are exempt is because it's bad law and even the GOP isn't willing to foist bad law on first responders...just on everyone else.

They aren't exempt, that's why the question isn't answered.

GOP defends right-to-work exclusion of cop, fire unions

No, they were excluded from the "right to work" legislation. Don't they have the "right to work"?

Yes, they are included. NO one - that's zero persons - is required to pay dues to any union. However, police, firefighters, and other first responders are covered under Michigan's Public Act 312.

COMPULSORY ARBITRATION OF LABOR DISPUTES IN POLICE AND FIRE DEPARTMENTS

Act 312 of 1969

AN ACT to provide for compulsory arbitration of labor disputes in municipal police and fire departments; to define such public departments; to provide for the selection of members of arbitration panels; to prescribe the procedures and authority thereof; and to provide for the enforcement and review of awards thereof.


History: 1969, Act 312, Eff. Oct. 1, 1969
Constitutionality: This act is clearly constitutional. Local 1277, Metropolitan Council No 23, American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, AFL-CIO v City of Center Line, 414 Mich 642; 327 NW2d 822 (1982).
Popular Name: Act 312

© 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan

The People of the State of Michigan enact:

Document Type Description
Section 423.231 Section Compulsory arbitration in police and fire departments; policy.
Section 423.232 Section “Public police or fire department employee,”“emergency medical service personnel,” and “emergency telephone operator” defined; provisions inapplicable to certain persons.
Section 423.233 Section Initiation of binding arbitration proceedings; request.
Section 423.234 Section Delegates; selection; notice.
Section 423.235 Section Selection and designation of impartial arbitrator or chairman of arbitration panel; Michigan employment relations commission panel of arbitrators; appointment, terms, qualifications, and removal of members; qualifications and training for service as chair of arbitration panel.
Section 423.236 Section Arbitrator; duties; hearing; intervenors; evidence; record; expenses; actions and rulings.
Section 423.237 Section Oaths; subpoenas; failure to obey, contempt of court.
Section 423.237a Section Remanding dispute for further collective bargaining.
Section 423.238 Section Identification of economic issues in dispute; submission and adoption of settlement offers; findings, opinion, and order.
Section 423.239 Section Findings, opinions, and orders; factors considered; financial ability of governmental unit to pay.
Section 423.240 Section Majority decision of arbitration panel final and binding; enforcement; effect of new municipal fiscal year; awarding increased rates or benefits retroactively; amending or modifying award of arbitration.
Section 423.241 Section Violation of lawful enforcement order; penalty.
Section 423.242 Section Judicial review; scope; stay.
Section 423.243 Section Existing conditions; continuance, change.
Section 423.244 Section Act supplementary.
Section 423.245 Section Repealed. 1975, Act 3, Imd. Eff. Mar. 25, 1975.
Section 423.246 Section Violations of act; imprisonment prohibited.
Section 423.247 Section Effective date.


All that is still valid for those sorts of public employees. No where in that act does it say they MUST pay dues, either.

But, if you really believe that cops and firefighters are required to pay union dues under the right to work bill, I provided a link to the bill itself. I see no such requirement. Perhaps I missed it, so of course you will give me the line in the actual bill that requires firefighters and cops to pay union dues. It should be easy to do as the lines are numbered.

Thanks.

 

[Seawytch]

The GOP wouldn't have to defend their exclusion of first responders if they were included in the scope of the bill. WI did the same thing. If it's so great, why are cops and FF excluded? Because it's not so great and everyone knows it.

 

[Si modo]

The GOP wouldn't have to defend their exclusion of first responders if they were included in the scope of the bill. WI did the same thing. If it's so great, why are cops and FF excluded? Because it's not so great and everyone knows it.

There is no exclusion of first responders in the MI bill.

 

[saveliberty]

It's telling how your question cannot be answered, OohPooPahDoo. The reason that cops and firefighters are exempt is because it's bad law and even the GOP isn't willing to foist bad law on first responders...just on everyone else.

Already answered the question you hack.

 

[saveliberty]

I think its a bad idea to have unions in government to begin with.

 

[Seawytch]

The GOP wouldn't have to defend their exclusion of first responders if they were included in the scope of the bill. WI did the same thing. If it's so great, why are cops and FF excluded? Because it's not so great and everyone knows it.

There is no exclusion of first responders in the MI bill.

Ah..so the MI legislators are defending an action, according to you, they never took. Odd.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

It would be like the military having the right to strike OohPoop.

We're not talking about whether or not cops and firefighters should have the right to strike, that's not what the OP is about. Pay attention! Didn't your teacher ever tell you to read the directions ?


The inquiry at hand relates to the union busting legislation known as "right to work". This law allows employees at a union shop to opt out of paying union dues or agency fees. Michigan just became the 24th state to pass one. Its version of the law exempts police and firefighters. So the question is - why shouldn't policed and firefighters have the right to work?

Think on it for a while. Then answer.

Here's the actual bill. Please identify the line in that bill that exempts police and firefighters.

Thanks.

Additionally, there's this:

LANSING, Mich. -

Attorney General Bill Schuette says he expects the Michigan Civil Service Commission to follow a new right-to-work law as it relates to the state's 35,000 unionized workers.

Schuette tells reporters Thursday the law signed Tuesday by Republican Gov. Rick Snyder applies to public and private workers and he expects potential legal challenges to fail.​

Michigan AG Bill Schuette: Right-to-work applies to state employees | News - Home


You seem quite confused about this.

So do you. The exclusion applies to police and firefighters, not all state workers.
The very same Michigan AG that is referred to in your link says as much.

In a year-end interview with reporters, Schuette also said police and firefighter unions received a "correct carve out" exemption from the right-to-work law because of their special collective bargaining rights.

From The Detroit News: Schuette: Right-to-work law applies to unionized state workers | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

Here's the GOP defending the exclusion:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121210/POLITICS02/212100340/

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

It's telling how your question cannot be answered, OohPooPahDoo. The reason that cops and firefighters are exempt is because it's bad law and even the GOP isn't willing to foist bad law on first responders...just on everyone else.

They aren't exempt, that's why the question isn't answered.

You might want to inform the GOP of this.GOP defends right-to-work exclusion of cop, fire unions | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

 

[Si modo]

It's telling how your question cannot be answered, OohPooPahDoo. The reason that cops and firefighters are exempt is because it's bad law and even the GOP isn't willing to foist bad law on first responders...just on everyone else.

They aren't exempt, that's why the question isn't answered.

You might want to inform the GOP of this.GOP defends right-to-work exclusion of cop, fire unions | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

I've read the bill and don't really care what a person says to the press.

As I have linked to that bill, you surely can show me where in the bill cops are excluded. That's the second time I've asked you to do so. I've also asked another to do the same. I've also posted Michigan's Public Act 312 which governs cops and asked where in THAT act it says cops are excluded.

I'm still waiting.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

It's telling how your question cannot be answered, OohPooPahDoo. The reason that cops and firefighters are exempt is because it's bad law and even the GOP isn't willing to foist bad law on first responders...just on everyone else.

They aren't exempt, that's why the question isn't answered.

You might want to inform the GOP of this.GOP defends right-to-work exclusion of cop, fire unions | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

best line from the article:

"In arguing for a right-to-work law, Snyder and GOP leaders acknowledged it could create divisions in firehouses and police departments if union membership or fees was optional — as will become the case for all other unionized workplaces when Snyder signs the bill."

glad to see the GOP is embracing created division on the workplace.

 

[LeftCoastVoter]

They aren't exempt, that's why the question isn't answered.

You might want to inform the GOP of this.GOP defends right-to-work exclusion of cop, fire unions | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

I've read the bill and don't really care what a person says to the press.

As I have linked to that bill, you surely can show me where in the bill cops are excluded. That's the second time I've asked you to do so. I've also asked another to do the same. I've also posted Michigan's Public Act 312 which governs cops and asked where in THAT act it says cops are excluded.

I'm still waiting.

if youre to ignorant to ignore facts, then no answer will be sufficient

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

They aren't exempt, that's why the question isn't answered.

You might want to inform the GOP of this.GOP defends right-to-work exclusion of cop, fire unions | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

I've read the bill and don't really care what a person says to the press.

Its not just some person. Its the Michigan state attorney general, and the governor, and the party that passed the bill.


Are you telling me the Michigan GOP and its governor are so incredibly stupid that they thought the Michigan state police were excluded when they are not? And apparently not a single one of them have figured out yet that aren't excluded! You should give them a call right away!

As I have linked to that bill, you surely can show me where in the bill cops are excluded. That's the second time I've asked you to do so. I've also asked another to do the same. I've also posted Michigan's Public Act 312 which governs cops and asked where in THAT act it says cops are excluded.

I'm still waiting.

I'm not a lawyer in Michigan. Perhaps you should as their Attorney General.