Why Bush and Cheney are lying idiots.

[manu1959]

Q: Attacks against your rival from the stump do not equal an apology. He was speaking to the American people, and in no capacity expressed regret to the world community.

A: disagree kerry i saw kerry speaking to europe and i recall reading that he did speak to several of the leaders to ask the question



Q: So decided white house lawyers. They also decided you can hold a man underwater until he passes out and this does not constitute torture. I believe its called water-boarding. We are making up the rules as we go along now.

A: not true read the geneva convention and decide for yourself


Q: So you agree we should not arm the Israelis either, then?

A: i belive that countries should sort out their own violent issues...survive or perish



Q:The majority of the international community does not approve of the invasion. Most of the countries in the coalition are powerless little state-lets who are lending moral supprt in exchange for economic and trade benefits. Their support is bought more than earned. We have been isolated by our actions and our refusal to admit wrong doing.
A: i do not care what they think and they isolated themselves before we took action...remeber france, russia, germany and china all armed iraq as well they all had millions of dollars of debt owed to them by iraq...as did the us and england...we did something they did not...easy to be a critic

 

[oxbow3]

A: disagree kerry i saw kerry speaking to europe and i recall reading that he did speak to several of the leaders to ask the question

Do you remember what was the question, and the answer?

It could be argued that he was not speaking in any official capacity as our leader but since he's back in the senate, I shouldn't resort to hypotheticals.

Q: So decided white house lawyers. They also decided you can hold a man underwater until he passes out and this does not constitute torture. I believe its called water-boarding. We are making up the rules as we go along now.

A: not true read the geneva convention and decide for yourself

what's not true? that they can do water-boarding or that we're making up rules? If the Geneva convention has a bylaw specifically for terrorists, please do tell and save me the trouble of looking.

Even if so, the White House lawyers went into a lot of work to reword the meaning of torture so that we could get away with much more of it. Right now, it stands at "anything that does not cause pain equal to major organ damage or death" IIRC. Read the book I linked to. The editor was just on CNN's Aaron Brown tonight, and the documents in it are all straight from the government. There is minimal commentary and a few articles on torture that were written well before Abu Ghraib, but most of it is internal reports.

A: i do not care what they think and they isolated themselves before we took action...remeber france, russia, germany and china all armed iraq as well they all had millions of dollars of debt owed to them by iraq...as did the us and england...we did something they did not...easy to be a critic

We did something and it turned out to be wrong. They did not. So who holds the moral high ground here (if anybody)?


Another thought on International law: Isn't it illegal to wage pre-emptive war against another country according to the UN charter? Im sure it should be, as the UN came about because Hitler did just that.

 

[manu1959]

i was drawing a conclusion from what kerry said though out the campaign as it seemd to me he was trying to appologize and gian support

the geneva convention states that you are protected if you are from a country that is at war and wearing a recognized uniform of that country otherwise you can be shot as a spy

as for the moral and ethical boundries of torture...i will leave that for another day

i belive the us and its allies and opponents could do better

 

[sitarro]

Do you remember what was the question, and the answer?

It could be argued that he was not speaking in any official capacity as our leader but since he's back in the senate, I shouldn't resort to hypotheticals.
what's not true? that they can do water-boarding or that we're making up rules? If the Geneva convention has a bylaw specifically for terrorists, please do tell and save me the trouble of looking.

Even if so, the White House lawyers went into a lot of work to reword the meaning of torture so that we could get away with much more of it. Right now, it stands at "anything that does not cause pain equal to major organ damage or death" IIRC. Read the book I linked to. The editor was just on CNN's Aaron Brown tonight, and the documents in it are all straight from the government. There is minimal commentary and a few articles on torture that were written well before Abu Ghraib, but most of it is internal reports.''



Ox,
You know kid , when you get out in the real world , a place that tenured college bullshit artist(professors)know nothing about , maybe you will actually be able to form your own opinion . What you don't realize now , and may never realize , is how incredibly naive you are . You would be one of the first that those asswipe cowards behind the masks would decapitate . Do you honestly think that your professor could negotiate with them?
I went to college , I can count the professors on half of a hand that had a clue about anything that they hadn't read in a book . They were all full of themselves because of the power they held over children , anyone with two weeks of work experience in the real world knows more than most of them .Sorry to burst that bubble . By the way , what the fuck is a conflict resolution professor? Where are you going to school . . . Berkely?
The United States is not the bad guy and the world is an infinitely more complex place than you have the capacity to imagine . Do some traveling and see for yourself how great this country is . If you find something better you are free to relocate. A word of warning . . . Utopia has never and will never exist , humans won't allow it .



:bangheads

Oh , and ditto to everything Merlin said .

 

[j07950]

I've got to say I'm a big fan of oxbow3, he's said a lot of intelligent things, things I guess I've tried to say before (but I'm foreign, it doesn't go down as well). I haven't seen people able to hold down their own in here against what he's posted, and I've read all 9 pages... I agree completely with what he's said. As fo sitarror all I've got to say is that ur post is exactly what we tend to get on this message board, whenever someone is against us they use the whole ur at college thing, ur a kid, u'r blinded by your teachers...it's all crap. You just have nothing to say about any of the posts oxbow3 has posted as they are all very well written and thought of. Actually find something he's said you want to argue and stop that whole "I'm wise and you're still at college blinded by your teachers" crap...

oxbow3: Keep up the good work!!!

 

[sitarro]

I've got to say I'm a big fan of oxbow3, he's said a lot of intelligent things, things I guess I've tried to say before (but I'm foreign, it doesn't go down as well). I haven't seen people able to hold down their own in here against what he's posted, and I've read all 9 pages... I agree completely with what he's said. As fo sitarror all I've got to say is that ur post is exactly what we tend to get on this message board, whenever someone is against us they use the whole ur at college thing, ur a kid, u'r blinded by your teachers...it's all crap. You just have nothing to say about any of the posts oxbow3 has posted as they are all very well written and thought of. Actually find something he's said you want to argue and stop that whole "I'm wise and you're still at college blinded by your teachers" crap...

oxbow3: Keep up the good work!!!

Whatever kid , I didn't get to 51 years old being a naive idiot . I have been to college and have gone on to work for the last thirty years in the real world , I just might know a few things . You probably listen to rap and Euro club crap and think it's music . Your attitude is nothing new , all kids think that people older than they are don't know as much as they do , you're wrong . Kids without any individualist thought often become enthralled with what their professors have to say . The fact is , professors are becoming more and more obsolete , you can learn almost anything on your own .Why deal with some asswipe with a ego problem when you can teach yourself anything .
Say whatever you want about me , it doesn't change the fact that you children are naive and it will take you years to figure anything out on your own . Good luck , you'll need it . . . kid.

 

[j07950]

Whatever kid , I didn't get to 51 years old being a naive idiot . I have been to college and have gone on to work for the last thirty years in the real world , I just might know a few things . You probably listen to rap and Euro club crap and think it's music . Your attitude is nothing new , all kids think that people older than they are don't know as much as they do , you're wrong . Kids without any individualist thought often become enthralled with what their professors have to say . The fact is , professors are becoming more and more obsolete , you can learn almost anything on your own .Why deal with some asswipe with a ego problem when you can teach yourself anything .
Say whatever you want about me , it doesn't change the fact that you children are naive and it will take you years to figure anything out on your own . Good luck , you'll need it . . . kid.

Don't generalize...You just assume, where are the facts? I learn a lot on my own...I bet oxbow3 also has, it's not like they are actually learning about the Irak war in class...probably 5-10 years down the line. So saying he's influenced by his teachers is non-sense as everything he's said about the Irak war comes from his own research and ideas...As for me, sorry to disapoint, I hate rap and euro club crap, don't go to clubs.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Gee, who would imagine that j666 would be a big fan oxbow3. It reminds me of two retards getting lost in a closet.

 

[j07950]

Gee, who would imagine that j666 would be a big fan oxbow3. It reminds me of two retards getting lost in a closet.

Same old stuff from you...you're boring

 

[Said1]

Same old stuff from you...you're boring

Considering you didn't add anything worth reading, you still get to keep your troll status.

 

[Said1]

you go girl!

I think j_lo likes me.

 

[dilloduck]

I think j_lo likes me.

maybe I should warn him ???

 

[j07950]

Considering you didn't add anything worth reading, you still get to keep your troll status.

Fair enough...if that makes u happy

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Same old stuff from you...you're boring

You obviously don't read many threads.

 

[Merlin1047]

I've got to say I'm a big fan of oxbow3

Well I was going to respond to oxbow's blame America first attitude. But now there is no longer any point. The fact that you agree with him is the worst indictment of his limp-wristed, watery-eyed opinions that I can possibly imagine.

There you go oxbow, you have the board's french anti-American agreeing with you. Hope that makes you proud.

 

[j07950]

Well I was going to respond to oxbow's blame America first attitude. But now there is no longer any point. The fact that you agree with him is the worst indictment of his limp-wristed, watery-eyed opinions that I can possibly imagine.

There you go oxbow, you have the board's french anti-American agreeing with you. Hope that makes you proud.

You obviously don't read everything on this board, I'm so far from being anti-american, just because I don't have the same opinion as all of you pro-Bush people doesn't make me anti-american. And like I've explained before, I'm more american than the average foreigner. Give it up, people not agreeing with you aren't anti-american.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You obviously don't read everything on this board, I'm so far from being anti-american, just because I don't have the same opinion as all of you pro-Bush people doesn't make me anti-american. And like I've explained before, I'm more american than the average foreigner. Give it up, people not agreeing with you aren't anti-american.

It's your constant criticism of america which leads us to this conclusion. There are antiamericans in this country too. They're called liberal democrats.

 

[manu1959]

couple of points for our young friends

calling some one intelligent because you agree with what they say is not a sign of intelligenc or maturaity

the lions led by the sheep would win for the y would kill thier leader and then kill their oposistion

lastly terrorists and the geneva convention

http://www.genevaconventions.org/


combatant status

Convention I offers protections to wounded combatants, who are defined as members of the armed forces of a party to an international conflict, members of militias or volunteer corps including members of organized resistance movements as long as they have a well-defined chain of command, are clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry their arms openly, and obey the laws of war. (Convention I, Art. 13, Sec. 1 and Sec. 2)

civilians, who commit hostile acts and are captured do not have these protections. For example, civilians in an occupied territory are subject to the existing penal laws. (Convention IV, Art. 64)

The 1977 Protocols extend the definition of combatant to include any fighters who carry arms openly during preparation for an attack and during the attack itself, (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 3) but these Protocols aren’t as widely accepted as the four 1949 conventions.

In the case of an internal conflict, combatants must show humane treatment to civilians and enemies who have been wounded or who have surrendered. Murder, hostage-taking and extrajudicial executions are all forbidden. (Convention I, Art. 3)

mercenary

A mercenary is any person who is specially recruited in order to fight in an armed conflict, who takes a direct part in the hostilities, who is motivated by money and is promised substantially higher pay than that paid to other combatants of similar rank, who is not a national of one of the countries involved in the conflict nor a resident of a territory controlled by any of the parties, is not a member of the armed forces of any of the parties, and who has not been sent by another country on official duty as a member of its armed forces. (Protocol I, Art. 47)

A mercenary does not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war. (Protocol I, Art. 37)

guerrillas

Guerrillas who follow the rules spelled out in the Geneva Conventions are considered to have combatant status and have some of the same rights as regular members of the armed forces.

In international conflicts, guerrillas must distinguish themselves from the civilian population if they are preparing or engaged in an attack. At a minimum, guerrillas must carry their arms openly. (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 3)

Under the earlier Geneva Conventions, which are more widely recognized, a guerrilla army must have a well-defined chain of command, be clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry arms openly and observe the laws of war. (Convention III, Art. 4, Sec. 2)

In the case of an internal conflict, combatants must show humane treatment to civilians and enemies who have been wounded or who have surrendered. Murder, hostage-taking and extrajudicial executions are all forbidden. (Convention I, Art. 3)

so you see they dont follow the rules of war so they are SOL but eventually you will decide that they are civilians that are now terroists which states


terrorism

Civilians who commit an offense against an occupying power which does not include an attempt against the lives of members of the occupying force or administration, pose a grave collective danger, or seriously damage property or installations of the occupying power may only be punished by internment or imprisonment. (Convention IV, Art. 68)

Civilians in an occupied territory must not be subject to collective penalties or any other measures of intimidation or terrorism. (Convention IV, Art. 33)


so you are back to what is torture as the geneva convention forbides tortue and you will find

2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents: (a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular: (i) murder; (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental; (iii) corporal punishment; and (iv) mutilation;

 

[manu1959]

couple of points for our young friends

calling some one intelligent because you agree with what they say is not a sign of intelligenc or maturity you are the sheep following a false lion and the lions led by the sheep will win for they will ignor their weak leader and kill their oposistion

lastly terrorists and the geneva convention (kinda long but it is all here for you)

http://www.genevaconventions.org/


combatant status

Convention I offers protections to wounded combatants, who are defined as members of the armed forces of a party to an international conflict, members of militias or volunteer corps including members of organized resistance movements as long as they have a well-defined chain of command, are clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry their arms openly, and obey the laws of war. (Convention I, Art. 13, Sec. 1 and Sec. 2)

civilians, who commit hostile acts and are captured do not have these protections. For example, civilians in an occupied territory are subject to the existing penal laws. (Convention IV, Art. 64)

The 1977 Protocols extend the definition of combatant to include any fighters who carry arms openly during preparation for an attack and during the attack itself, (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 3) but these Protocols aren’t as widely accepted as the four 1949 conventions.

In the case of an internal conflict, combatants must show humane treatment to civilians and enemies who have been wounded or who have surrendered. Murder, hostage-taking and extrajudicial executions are all forbidden. (Convention I, Art. 3)

mercenary

A mercenary is any person who is specially recruited in order to fight in an armed conflict, who takes a direct part in the hostilities, who is motivated by money and is promised substantially higher pay than that paid to other combatants of similar rank, who is not a national of one of the countries involved in the conflict nor a resident of a territory controlled by any of the parties, is not a member of the armed forces of any of the parties, and who has not been sent by another country on official duty as a member of its armed forces. (Protocol I, Art. 47)

A mercenary does not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war. (Protocol I, Art. 37)

guerrillas

Guerrillas who follow the rules spelled out in the Geneva Conventions are considered to have combatant status and have some of the same rights as regular members of the armed forces.

In international conflicts, guerrillas must distinguish themselves from the civilian population if they are preparing or engaged in an attack. At a minimum, guerrillas must carry their arms openly. (Protocol I, Art. 44, Sec. 3)

Under the earlier Geneva Conventions, which are more widely recognized, a guerrilla army must have a well-defined chain of command, be clearly distinguishable from the civilian population, carry arms openly and observe the laws of war. (Convention III, Art. 4, Sec. 2)

In the case of an internal conflict, combatants must show humane treatment to civilians and enemies who have been wounded or who have surrendered. Murder, hostage-taking and extrajudicial executions are all forbidden. (Convention I, Art. 3)

so you see they dont follow the rules of war so they are SOL but eventually you will decide that they are civilians that are now terroists which states


terrorism

Civilians who commit an offense against an occupying power which does not include an attempt against the lives of members of the occupying force or administration, pose a grave collective danger, or seriously damage property or installations of the occupying power may only be punished by internment or imprisonment. (Convention IV, Art. 68)

Civilians in an occupied territory must not be subject to collective penalties or any other measures of intimidation or terrorism. (Convention IV, Art. 33)


so you are back to what is torture as the geneva convention forbides tortue and you will find

2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents: (a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular: (i) murder; (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental; (iii) corporal punishment; and (iv) mutilation;2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents: (a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular: (i) murder; (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental; (iii) corporal punishment; and (iv) mutilation; (b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form or indecent assault; (c) the taking of hostages; (d) collective punishments; and (e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.

so if you decide that these people are one of the protected groups and you decide that they are figthing according to the rules of war and you decide that they are complying with the geneva convnetion then they are eligible.

i say they are not, but also say that what has been reported is far from violent physical or mental torture and the difference is we are prosecuting our transgressors....i have yet to see any such beahviour on thier side....any trials on the beheadings on CNN?

 

[j07950]

I didn't say he was intelligent, I said some of the things he's said were intelligent, as in they are well thought of and well writen..don't know what is wrong with that. Oh and I don't agree with everything he's said but on a general note he couldn't have put it down better. You're going to attack me because I agree with someone that has said some very interesting things? which by the way kind of shut all of you up because I didn't see any interesting or plausible responses to what he's said...

PS: What are you waiting for to kill your sheep?