Why Bush and Cheney are lying idiots.

[dilloduck]

I just want them to name their sources, so we can check their credibility publicly.

The completely inept way in which the British Goc. handled the forged documents already says to me that they knew they were fakes. I think they owe both our countries an apology for that.

Greater transparency is needed in the intelligence gathering capabilities of both nations. Too often, they hide behind their security shield in order to protect their own butts, and not the country as they say in public.

I hope I've understood your question correctly.

IMO--transparency intelligence gathering is an oxymoron----I just don't think we can expect the entire truth to be broadcast about govt activities because it is impracticle in todays crisis.

 

[Annie]

No, As I said there, the situation in the oil for food scandal was unique. Nothing like it had ever been done before, and as a result there were many loopholes for Saddam and unethical members of the UN to exploit. I am a big proponent of changing the UN from the inside out, too. I just don't see the relevance of that to this thread.

Not exactly:

http://firms.findlaw.com/cunma/links.htm

 

[oxbow3]

IMO--transparency intelligence gathering is an oxymoron----I just don't think we can expect the entire truth to be broadcast about govt activities because it is impracticle in todays crisis.

Yea, I don't mean completely transparent, just more fail-safes against the type of abuses that led to this kind of decepetion. I agree that some degree of secrecy is necessary in intel. org.'s

Not in that article. The sixteen words remain true and the British stand behind them TO THIS DAY. Go jump in a lake.

If all you have for your case for war is the testimony of an unidentified person, which is backed up by forged documents, then it does not look like a strong case to me. Something smells fishy in Niger. Your faith in the British gov. is confusing given their recent history concerning this.

Freeandfun1-I'll do some research and get back to you on the containment thing. My thoughts at this time are that two wrongs don't make a right. We should not have gone to war without better proof or reasons. Over 20,000 peoples worth of innocent blood, and 100,000 in civilian and US injuries, is just not worth it to me. That other nations were lax in their responsibilites does not justify our leaders' deceptions and mistakes in this.

 

[oxbow3]

Kathianne, please stop posting two word responses followed by links to huge websites. If you want to make a point or argue a position, do so and back up your position with sources, not the other way around. I pay you enough respect to not make you wade through endless papers to make a point, so please do the same to me

I have to go for tonight. Everyone have a great weekend, and I'll see you next time around!

 

[Annie]

Kathianne, please stop posting two word responses followed by links to huge websites. If you want to make a point or argue a position, do so and back up your position with sources, not the other way around. I pay you enough respect to not make you wade through endless papers to make a point, so please do the same to me

I have to go for tonight. Everyone have a great weekend, and I'll see you next time around!

Not to a website, but rather a concise listing of what has been problematic for the UN, including but not exclusive of Oil for Food. No way am I going to list all of that here.

Have a good night.

 

[manu1959]

I just want them to name their sources, so we can check their credibility publicly.

The completely inept way in which the British Goc. handled the forged documents already says to me that they knew they were fakes. I think they owe both our countries an apology for that.

Greater transparency is needed in the intelligence gathering capabilities of both nations. Too often, they hide behind their security shield in order to protect their own butts, and not the country as they say in public.

I hope I've understood your question correctly.

i will concede all your requests and assume that everything is revealed such that the answers are acceptable to you.

now what?

 

[manu1959]

We should not have gone to war without better proof or reasons. Over 20,000 peoples worth of innocent blood, and 100,000 in civilian and US injuries, is just not worth it to me. That other nations were lax in their responsibilites does not justify our leaders' deceptions and mistakes in this.

ok...i will concede this as well....now what?

 

[dilloduck]

ok...i will concede this as well....now what?

Cmon Manu---you gotta give em something to keep bitchin about !!!

 

[manu1959]

Cmon Manu---you gotta give em something to keep bitchin about !!!

i am tired of the complaining i want to see what they would do...i want to know if anyone actually has any ideas....

during this entire election process i would simple tell all my blue friends.....give me three reasons to vote for john kerry and i will....one condition...you cna't reference the current administration in your argument....almost wihtout fail the start..."well bush"...the left currently defines themselves through critisim of others not solutions....

 

[oxbow3]

I know I said goodbye. I was checkin my email before going out and I couldn't resisit checking in here tho. I will give a short reply and come back tomorrow to really talk more.

My opinion is that if we simply admit we were wrong, and ask the world for help in fixing the mess we've made, everyone would be more than willing to help us. I think the most offputting thing in the eyes of non-Americans is the arrogance of our actions, how we often go in and tell people what is good for them and force our will onto others in the interest of the "common good." You would be amazed how effective a simple apology can be. It would show that we are serious about turning over a new leaf, and dispel the myth of America as the Big Bully. That's just for starters of course, but I believe it is the simplest way to effect real action and welcome global involvement in Iraq's future.

In the words of the Governator, "Ah'll be bohck"

 

[Johnney]

I know I said goodbye. I was checkin my email before going out and I couldn't resisit checking in here tho. I will give a short reply and come back tomorrow to really talk more.

My opinion is that if we simply admit we were wrong, and ask the world for help in fixing the mess we've made, everyone would be more than willing to help us. I think the most offputting thing in the eyes of non-Americans is the arrogance of our actions, how we often go in and tell people what is good for them and force our will onto others in the interest of the "common good." You would be amazed how effective a simple apology can be. It would show that we are serious about turning over a new leaf, and dispel the myth of America as the Big Bully. That's just for starters of course, but I believe it is the simplest way to effect real action and welcome global involvement in Iraq's future.

In the words of the Governator, "Ah'll be bohck"

if we need to be the big bully then we need to be. it keeps other countries from trying to walk on us. ok, were arogant, so. what country isnt to some extent?

 

[dilloduck]

I know I said goodbye. I was checkin my email before going out and I couldn't resisit checking in here tho. I will give a short reply and come back tomorrow to really talk more.

My opinion is that if we simply admit we were wrong, and ask the world for help in fixing the mess we've made, everyone would be more than willing to help us. I think the most offputting thing in the eyes of non-Americans is the arrogance of our actions, how we often go in and tell people what is good for them and force our will onto others in the interest of the "common good." You would be amazed how effective a simple apology can be. It would show that we are serious about turning over a new leaf, and dispel the myth of America as the Big Bully. That's just for starters of course, but I believe it is the simplest way to effect real action and welcome global involvement in Iraq's future.

In the words of the Governator, "Ah'll be bohck"

History has yet to prove us wrong for invading Iraq.
No one wants to help the US do anything.
The Arab world is sending in arab fighters to kill iraqis and Americans--do you think they will stop if we apologize and leave??

 

[Merlin1047]

I My opinion is that if we simply admit we were wrong, and ask the world for help in fixing the mess we've made, everyone would be more than willing to help us.

First, we were not wrong and have done nothing for which we should apologize.

Second, our incursion into Iraq was highly justified for a great many reasons which had nothing to do with WMDs.

Third, how can you possibly be so naive as to believe that our french "friends" would rush to our side simply because we said we're sorry? The outcome of such an apology would be that we would be held in contempt by the Euroweenies in general and the french in particular. And they would despise us as weakling cowards for giving in to the very demands they placed before us. A further outcome of your suggested apology would be to embolden the many terrorist enemies we have throughout the world. They will then realize that the American people are a pack of sybaritic cowards with a short attention span. We will become the laughing stock of the world and we will be attacked with impunity whenever some moslem idiot somewhere in the world has a real or imagined grievance. Finally, and perhaps worst of all, we would lose the respect of our friends and allies who have supported us in this war on terrorism and it is unlikely that they would ever again support a nation which has shown such complete lack of resolve.

You need to take the next plane off of Fantasy Island and come live in the real world with the rest of us mere mortals.

 

[manu1959]

My opinion is that if we simply admit we were wrong, and ask the world for help in fixing the mess we've made, everyone would be more than willing to help us.

funny thing...kerry did this...the french germans russians and chinese all sid even if you are elected and when you apllogize and withdraw we will not help

now what?

 

[oxbow3]

First, we were not wrong and have done nothing for which we should apologize.

Second, our incursion into Iraq was highly justified for a great many reasons which had nothing to do with WMDs.

Third, how can you possibly be so naive as to believe that our french "friends" would rush to our side simply because we said we're sorry? The outcome of such an apology would be that we would be held in contempt by the Euroweenies in general and the french in particular. And they would despise us as weakling cowards for giving in to the very demands they placed before us. A further outcome of your suggested apology would be to embolden the many terrorist enemies we have throughout the world. They will then realize that the American people are a pack of sybaritic cowards with a short attention span. We will become the laughing stock of the world and we will be attacked with impunity whenever some moslem idiot somewhere in the world has a real or imagined grievance. Finally, and perhaps worst of all, we would lose the respect of our friends and allies who have supported us in this war on terrorism and it is unlikely that they would ever again support a nation which has shown such complete lack of resolve.

You need to take the next plane off of Fantasy Island and come live in the real world with the rest of us mere mortals.

You're saying we were not wrong about Iraq's weapons capabilities or Iraq being a major state sponsor of terror, because both those points were wrong. You didn't read what I posted on the last few pages.

As for the third point, the world already does hold us in contempt. A coward backs down from the right thing to do. It is the truly brave man that can admit wrongdoing in public.

An apology would unite the world again, as it was before Iraq, against terrorists. It would not embolden our enemies because we would not back out of Iraq. We would admit wrongdoing and ask for global support in keeping Iraq from ripping itself apart. A world united against them is the last thing the terrorists want. The US and GB isolated by their hubris plays right into their hands. What other allies do we have that are offerring anything more than moral support? A few troops or permission to fly over their airspace is the best that we have from most of the coalition right now. We already are isolated, Merlin.

 

[manu1959]

You're saying we were not wrong about WMD's, or Iraq being a major state sponsor of terror, because both those points were wrong. You didn't read what I posted on the last few pages.

odd..i just watched bush the other day say we were wrong about WMDs....odd i recall sadam giving 25k to any bomber that killed a jew

As for the third point, the world already does hold us in contempt. A coward backs down from the right thing to do. It is the truly brave man that can admit wrongdoing in public.

An apology would unite the world again, as it was before Iraq, against terrorists. It would not embolden our enemies because we would not back out of Iraq. We would admit wrongdoing and ask for global support in keeping Iraq from ripping itself apart. A world united against them is the last thing the terrorists want. The US and GB isolated by their hubris plays right into their hands. What other allies do we have that are offerring anything more than moral support? A few troops or permission to fly over their airspace is the best that we have from most of the coalition right now. We already are isolated, Merlin.

who is showing more hubris those that condem the US and Britian yet stand aside and do nothing to help hold iraq together, unite the world and fight against terrorists or the us and Britian for trying to help hold iraq together, unite the world and fight against terrorists. tis a rehtorical question

 

[oxbow3]

funny thing...kerry did this...the french germans russians and chinese all sid even if you are elected and when you apllogize and withdraw we will not help

now what?

He publicly apologized on behalf of the US for invading Iraq without due cause? When?

This is my opinion only, but the next thing is to make our foreign policy less hypocritical. Our support for Saudi Arabia despite entrenched human rights abuses, torture and tolerance of terrorist organizations tells the world alot about the policymakers' priorities. We won't be taken seriously unless the rules we make apply to everyone.

The same financial and military support of Israel against the Palestinians has been a long-standing issue. News stories abound about dud bombs found in Palestinian camps with "made in the USA" sprayed on their sides. Our Apache helicopters are used to attack people who throw rocks or blow themselves up for lack of better weaponry. We have given massive military support to them since after WWII without extending the same protections to their dispossessed neighbors. We allowed them to kick the natives out of their houses and created hobo camps to put those people in in the desert. Of course they are going to be mad at us!

I was not even aware of this problem until my Conflict Resolution professor brought it up. The pro-Israel lobby is powerful and connected in this country and as a result, Israel is given preferential treatment over Palestine in policy and military aid. My professor himself is a proud jewish man, but told us he was ashamed that this is the way things are.

Basically, we can't go around breaking the rules if we don't like them. We broke UN rules by invading Iraq. We threw the Geneva conventions out the window after 9/11, and Abu Ghraib is just the tip of the iceberg on what kind of abuses that led to.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050...america-abu-ghraib-and-the-war-on-terror.html

If we take our rightful place as the just world leader, it would be easier to take care of many other problems, including the mess at the UN. It would also earn the respect and admiration of many who have turned against us in the last decade. Anti-Americanism is at an all time high, and everything from our economy to international politics is suffering as a result.

 

[oxbow3]

who is showing more hubris those that condem the US and Britian yet stand aside and do nothing to help hold iraq together, unite the world and fight against terrorists or the us and Britian for trying to help hold iraq together, unite the world and fight against terrorists. tis a rehtorical question

Your right. There are many who want to see us get our cum-uppins in Iraq. Others feel that were they to step in, we would just go around screwin something else up and expect others to fix it again, kinda like the big dumb guy in "Of mice and Men." As for me, part of me wants the help of the world, for the sake of the civilians and our soldiers dying daily (that's the mercy side) The other part of me wants accountability, wants someone at the top to stand up and take reponsibility for not listening to the rest of the world before running in with guns cocked (that's the justice side). I'm really big on accountability, so its hard to hold my gov. above it, even with the horrors I see on the news daily.

 

[manu1959]

what would you take wrong war wrong place wrong time and the w stands for wrong and there are no WMDs and i will bring our allies back together mean to you...it sure seemed to me he was appologizing for Bushes behaviour

the saudis are trying, as are the brits, the germans the russians the french and everyone else.

which UN rule did the US break by invading Iraq? beacause as far as i kown the were 18 resolution over 12 years that said severe consequences and i do not recal any resolution that said you can not invade.

the geneva convention does not apply to nationless un-uniformed combatants and further i have no problem what occured at abu grab ass i have seen worse stuff at a frat party

i am sorry to hear that a jew has turned on his own people...we are not the only nation that allows the israel palastinian conflict to continue we certainl;y are not arming the palastinians but as i have said they should be allowed to blow each others brains out

i do not belive our rightful place is as the world leader and the UN should not be in the US and it should not be controled by 5 nations

who has turned against us and why would you want them with us?

 

[oxbow3]

what would you take wrong war wrong place wrong time and the w stands for wrong and there are no WMDs and i will bring our allies back together mean to you...it sure seemed to me he was appologizing for Bushes behaviour

Attacks against your rival from the stump do not equal an apology. He was speaking to the American people, and in no capacity expressed regret to the world community.

which UN rule did the US break by invading Iraq? beacause as far as i kown the were 18 resolution over 12 years that said severe consequences and i do not recal any resolution that said you can not invade.

I am not up on UN law, but the majority of the world does see the US as in defiance of UN laws. Its like the sheriff killing a man in cold blood though, who is gonna arrest him?

the geneva convention does not apply to nationless un-uniformed combatants and further i have no problem what occured at abu grab ass i have seen worse stuff at a frat party

So decided white house lawyers. They also decided you can hold a man underwater until he passes out and this does not constitute torture. I believe its called water-boarding. We are making up the rules as we go along now.

i am sorry to hear that a jew has turned on his own people...we are not the only nation that allows the israel palastinian conflict to continue we certainl;y are not arming the palastinians but as i have said they should be allowed to blow each others brains out

He has not turned on anybody, he is holding the moral position for fair treatment and in opposition of violent solutions to conflict.

So you agree we should not arm the Israelis either, then?

i do not belive our rightful place is as the world leader and the UN should not be in the US and it should not be controled by 5 nations

I do. I call it the spiderman doctrine. Very idealistic, I know, but that's the sort of guy I am.

who has turned against us and why would you want them with us?

The majority of the international community does not approve of the invasion. Most of the countries in the coalition are powerless little state-lets who are lending moral supprt in exchange for economic and trade benefits. Their support is bought more than earned. We have been isolated by our actions and our refusal to admit wrong doing.