What is a feminist?

[goldcatt]

I've never rasied same-aged kids. To find my son and daughter playing together at any point in their childhood was a rare thing.

I mentioned the toys because that was the typical example fems would drag out to support their arguiments that gender roles were assigned by a patriarchal society. Give boys tea sets to play with, they said, and boys will be less violent, more pliable, more...like girls. Give girls toy guns, and they will learn to be more competitive, more aggressive, more capable of taking on patriarchal society.

Regarding male and female differences, they believed it was limited to the physical. The plumbing is a little different, they would argue, but internally all is the same. It was societal conditioning, they said, that made us falsely believe there were any real differences between men and women.

And you don't think those or similar claims had to be made, right or wrong, in order to shake up the old accepted "truths" and make both men and women look at gender roles and stereotyping in a new light? After all, we are where we are for a reason. Maybe even if the premise was somewhat flawed it made people think outside the usual box...and that's what was really needed?

Now, that surprises me.

No, I don't. It's the old "the end justifies the means" thing. It says to hell with truth, I want change. It is intellectually dishonest on it's face and it serves no worthwhile purpose. It leads only to more confusion and it has finally led to a new definition of the term feminist that is essentially meaningless, as many of the posts on this thread attest. If you think women should not be treated like shit, you're a feminist.

And if the movement fems knew what they were saying was bullshit even as they were saying it then they were not only stupid, they were liars.

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as an experiment, some of which seems to have caught on and worked and some was proven wrong. Yes, the ideas were radical. But without the experiment, would we have had the results we do? I think not, personally.

What's dishonest about it?

And there's quite a bit more to feminism even today than thinking a woman shouldn't be treated like shit. There are people who treat servants and the hired help very well, thank you. But treating an inferior well isn't the same as equality.

 

[LuckyDan]

And you don't think those or similar claims had to be made, right or wrong, in order to shake up the old accepted "truths" and make both men and women look at gender roles and stereotyping in a new light? After all, we are where we are for a reason. Maybe even if the premise was somewhat flawed it made people think outside the usual box...and that's what was really needed?

Now, that surprises me.

No, I don't. It's the old "the end justifies the means" thing. It says to hell with truth, I want change. It is intellectually dishonest on it's face and it serves no worthwhile purpose. It leads only to more confusion and it has finally led to a new definition of the term feminist that is essentially meaningless, as many of the posts on this thread attest. If you think women should not be treated like shit, you're a feminist.

And if the movement fems knew what they were saying was bullshit even as they were saying it then they were not only stupid, they were liars.

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as an experiment, some of which seems to have caught on and worked and some was proven wrong. Yes, the ideas were radical. But without the experiment, would we have had the results we do? I think not, personally.

What's dishonest about it?

And there's quite a bit more to feminism even today than thinking a woman shouldn't be treated like shit. There are people who treat servants and the hired help very well, thank you. But treating an inferior well isn't the same as equality.

I was responding to your comment that "claims had to be made, right or wrong." I misunderstood and thought you were saying that claims were made even while knowing they were wrong. That's what I called dishonest.

If your talking about just kicking ideas around, that would be different, but that's now how I remember the 70s fems when they were selling their books on Donahue or pamphleteering on the streets. They were speaking what they believed to be the truth, and to question them was to be a misogynist, a neanderthal, an unenlightened male who feared a woman's power.

In college there were the girls who bought all the feminist dogma, who made the most noise in the classroom, and then there were the ones who rolled their eyes when they didn't laugh at loud at them. I'd love to see how their all doing now, who changed their minds, who didn't, who's happier with the choices they made.

What would you say, GC, as a feminist, is the legacy of the original, or movement, fems?

 

[goldcatt]

Now, that surprises me.

No, I don't. It's the old "the end justifies the means" thing. It says to hell with truth, I want change. It is intellectually dishonest on it's face and it serves no worthwhile purpose. It leads only to more confusion and it has finally led to a new definition of the term feminist that is essentially meaningless, as many of the posts on this thread attest. If you think women should not be treated like shit, you're a feminist.

And if the movement fems knew what they were saying was bullshit even as they were saying it then they were not only stupid, they were liars.

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as an experiment, some of which seems to have caught on and worked and some was proven wrong. Yes, the ideas were radical. But without the experiment, would we have had the results we do? I think not, personally.

What's dishonest about it?

And there's quite a bit more to feminism even today than thinking a woman shouldn't be treated like shit. There are people who treat servants and the hired help very well, thank you. But treating an inferior well isn't the same as equality.

I was responding to your comment that "claims had to be made, right or wrong." I misunderstood and thought you were saying that claims were made even while knowing they were wrong. That's what I called dishonest.

If your talking about just kicking ideas around, that would be different, but that's now how I remember the 70s fems when they were selling their books on Donahue or pamphleteering on the streets. They were speaking what they believed to be the truth, and to question them was to be a misogynist, a neanderthal, an unenlightened male who feared a woman's power.

In college there were the girls who bought all the feminist dogma, who made the most noise in the classroom, and then there were the ones who rolled their eyes when they didn't laugh at loud at them. I'd love to see how their all doing now, who changed their minds, who didn't, who's happier with the choices they made.

What would you say, GC, as a feminist, is the legacy of the original, or movement, fems?

Their legacy? It's all around you. Yes, in the negative stereotypes and eye rolling...but also in the second and third generation feminists who have come into their own in a way those early radicals wouldn't have dreamed possible in such a short time.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Feminism got a nasty rap from Mr Limbaugh with his Nazi spin. He turned feminists into cartoon harpies.

Rush spoke of the ones I refer to as movement feminists as "NAGs", for the National Association of Gals, or whatever. That they are so easy to lampoon is not his fault.

Also, when he speaks of Feminazis, he is not talking about just any feminist. He is talking about a particular type of feminist who wants as many abortions as possible to take place. And believe me, there are such feminists.

I thought Rush was targeting lesbians as Feminazi's. He couldn't be more ridiculous.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as an experiment, some of which seems to have caught on and worked and some was proven wrong. Yes, the ideas were radical. But without the experiment, would we have had the results we do? I think not, personally.

What's dishonest about it?

And there's quite a bit more to feminism even today than thinking a woman shouldn't be treated like shit. There are people who treat servants and the hired help very well, thank you. But treating an inferior well isn't the same as equality.

I was responding to your comment that "claims had to be made, right or wrong." I misunderstood and thought you were saying that claims were made even while knowing they were wrong. That's what I called dishonest.

If your talking about just kicking ideas around, that would be different, but that's now how I remember the 70s fems when they were selling their books on Donahue or pamphleteering on the streets. They were speaking what they believed to be the truth, and to question them was to be a misogynist, a neanderthal, an unenlightened male who feared a woman's power.

In college there were the girls who bought all the feminist dogma, who made the most noise in the classroom, and then there were the ones who rolled their eyes when they didn't laugh at loud at them. I'd love to see how their all doing now, who changed their minds, who didn't, who's happier with the choices they made.

What would you say, GC, as a feminist, is the legacy of the original, or movement, fems?

Their legacy? It's all around you. Yes, in the negative stereotypes and eye rolling...but also in the second and third generation feminists who have come into their own in a way those early radicals wouldn't have dreamed possible in such a short time.

Feminists today owe a debt to the ones who came before you.

 

[LuckyDan]

Feminism got a nasty rap from Mr Limbaugh with his Nazi spin. He turned feminists into cartoon harpies.

Rush spoke of the ones I refer to as movement feminists as "NAGs", for the National Association of Gals, or whatever. That they are so easy to lampoon is not his fault.

Also, when he speaks of Feminazis, he is not talking about just any feminist. He is talking about a particular type of feminist who wants as many abortions as possible to take place. And believe me, there are such feminists.

I thought Rush was targeting lesbians as Feminazi's. He couldn't be more ridiculous.

Nope. The feminazi's consider all sex rape and every birth given a crime.

 

[goldcatt]

Rush spoke of the ones I refer to as movement feminists as "NAGs", for the National Association of Gals, or whatever. That they are so easy to lampoon is not his fault.

Also, when he speaks of Feminazis, he is not talking about just any feminist. He is talking about a particular type of feminist who wants as many abortions as possible to take place. And believe me, there are such feminists.

I thought Rush was targeting lesbians as Feminazi's. He couldn't be more ridiculous.

Nope. The feminazi's consider all sex rape and every birth given a crime.

You're talking about the extreme lunatic fringe there, let's be clear. There are also women who believe a man isn't doing his job if he doesn't beat her. Is that the standard by which we should judge women who don't consider themselves feminist? Somehow I don't think so.

 

[Modbert]

You're talking about the extreme lunatic fringe there, let's be clear. There are also women who believe a man isn't doing his job if he doesn't beat her. Is that the standard by which we should judge women who don't consider themselves feminist? Somehow I don't think so.

Femnazis are not Feminists, they're crazy. Crazies do not adhere to any certain group's philosophy except their own.

 

[LuckyDan]

I don't see it that way at all. I see it as an experiment, some of which seems to have caught on and worked and some was proven wrong. Yes, the ideas were radical. But without the experiment, would we have had the results we do? I think not, personally.

What's dishonest about it?

And there's quite a bit more to feminism even today than thinking a woman shouldn't be treated like shit. There are people who treat servants and the hired help very well, thank you. But treating an inferior well isn't the same as equality.

I was responding to your comment that "claims had to be made, right or wrong." I misunderstood and thought you were saying that claims were made even while knowing they were wrong. That's what I called dishonest.

If your talking about just kicking ideas around, that would be different, but that's now how I remember the 70s fems when they were selling their books on Donahue or pamphleteering on the streets. They were speaking what they believed to be the truth, and to question them was to be a misogynist, a neanderthal, an unenlightened male who feared a woman's power.

In college there were the girls who bought all the feminist dogma, who made the most noise in the classroom, and then there were the ones who rolled their eyes when they didn't laugh at loud at them. I'd love to see how their all doing now, who changed their minds, who didn't, who's happier with the choices they made.

What would you say, GC, as a feminist, is the legacy of the original, or movement, fems?

Their legacy? It's all around you. Yes, in the negative stereotypes and eye rolling...but also in the second and third generation feminists who have come into their own in a way those early radicals wouldn't have dreamed possible in such a short time.

I was looking for more specific examples, like changes in the legal system, in the workplace, in public education - hell even in The Girl Scouts. Any thoughts there?

For example, I believe you can trace today's disparity between the number of young men who choose to attend to college and the number of young women to the feminist influence in the public schools.

In the workplace, antennae seem always to be up for sexual harrassment and the creation of a hostile environment. Often the accusation is enough, whether it has merit or not.

More women than men suffer from depression. I wonder if the failed promises of feminism, namely the delaying of marriage and child-rearing for a satisfying career, might be partially to blame, especially when marriage and child rearing turn out to be something less than the 50-50 partnership they were told they would have with their new, enlightened, man. Women changed. Men didn't. And won't anytime soon.

 

[LuckyDan]

I thought Rush was targeting lesbians as Feminazi's. He couldn't be more ridiculous.

Nope. The feminazi's consider all sex rape and every birth given a crime.

You're talking about the extreme lunatic fringe there, let's be clear. There are also women who believe a man isn't doing his job if he doesn't beat her. Is that the standard by which we should judge women who don't consider themselves feminist? Somehow I don't think so.

Yes, but they're out there, and that's who Rush is talking about when he uses that term. Just passing it along.

 

[goldcatt]

I was responding to your comment that "claims had to be made, right or wrong." I misunderstood and thought you were saying that claims were made even while knowing they were wrong. That's what I called dishonest.

If your talking about just kicking ideas around, that would be different, but that's now how I remember the 70s fems when they were selling their books on Donahue or pamphleteering on the streets. They were speaking what they believed to be the truth, and to question them was to be a misogynist, a neanderthal, an unenlightened male who feared a woman's power.

In college there were the girls who bought all the feminist dogma, who made the most noise in the classroom, and then there were the ones who rolled their eyes when they didn't laugh at loud at them. I'd love to see how their all doing now, who changed their minds, who didn't, who's happier with the choices they made.

What would you say, GC, as a feminist, is the legacy of the original, or movement, fems?

Their legacy? It's all around you. Yes, in the negative stereotypes and eye rolling...but also in the second and third generation feminists who have come into their own in a way those early radicals wouldn't have dreamed possible in such a short time.

I was looking for more specific examples, like changes in the legal system, in the workplace, in public education - hell even in The Girl Scouts. Any thoughts there?

For example, I believe you can trace today's disparity between the number of young men who choose to attend to college and the number of young women to the feminist influence in the public schools.

In the workplace, antennae seem always to be up for sexual harrassment and the creation of a hostile environment. Often the accusation is enough, whether it has merit or not.

More women than men suffer from depression. I wonder if the failed promises of feminism, namely the delaying of marriage and child-rearing for a satisfying career, might be partially to blame, especially when marriage and child rearing turn out to be something less than the 50-50 partnership they were told they would have with their new, enlightened, man. Women changed. Men didn't. And won't anytime soon.

Hmmm....concrete changes? There have been quite a few, actually. Look back to the 50s, 60s, 70s, other than teachers in public education how well was a woman's point of view represented in the legal system? Where were the women working, and for what percentage of a man's pay? What names were women called who chose to pursue a career, even though so many have minds that crave challenge and input beyond the matters of hearth and home?

Not everything is perfect, of course. Yes some men are a bit slow to catch up. But not all of them. I find plenty of men are perfectly willing to see and respect me as not only an individual instead of a thing or a piece of furniture, but also as an equal in all the ways that matter. Intellectually being a big one for me, nothing grinds my personal gears faster than a man who treats me like a retarded kindergartener.

I also think there's a growing recognition and acceptance at least of the value in the more intuitive type of intelligence many women seem to possess, rather than a need for a woman to think like a man in a more linear sequence to be accepted. There's still a great fear and distrust, not to mention misunderstanding, of the emotional differences....but this too shall catch up in time.

As far as having to do everything...well, with rights come responsibilities. But then again, it's also up to the woman to determine how much (or little) she will accept from a man, isn't it? Choices...it's all about choices. And I think that's the biggest change, women having so many choices. I realize these are generalities, but they cover the basics of where the rest of the more concrete changes come from.

 

[LuckyDan]

Their legacy? It's all around you. Yes, in the negative stereotypes and eye rolling...but also in the second and third generation feminists who have come into their own in a way those early radicals wouldn't have dreamed possible in such a short time.

I was looking for more specific examples, like changes in the legal system, in the workplace, in public education - hell even in The Girl Scouts. Any thoughts there?

For example, I believe you can trace today's disparity between the number of young men who choose to attend to college and the number of young women to the feminist influence in the public schools.

In the workplace, antennae seem always to be up for sexual harrassment and the creation of a hostile environment. Often the accusation is enough, whether it has merit or not.

More women than men suffer from depression. I wonder if the failed promises of feminism, namely the delaying of marriage and child-rearing for a satisfying career, might be partially to blame, especially when marriage and child rearing turn out to be something less than the 50-50 partnership they were told they would have with their new, enlightened, man. Women changed. Men didn't. And won't anytime soon.

Hmmm....concrete changes? There have been quite a few, actually. Look back to the 50s, 60s, 70s, other than teachers in public educationhow well was a woman's point of view represented in the legal system? Where were the women working, and for what percentage of a man's pay? What names were women called who chose to pursue a career, even though so many have minds that crave challenge and input beyond the matters of hearth and home?

Not everything is perfect, of course. Yes some men are a bit slow to catch up. But not all of them. I find plenty of men are perfectly willing to see and respect me as not only an individual instead of a thing or a piece of furniture, but also as an equal in all the ways that matter. Intellectually being a big one for me, nothing grinds my personal gears faster than a man who treats me like a retarded kindergartener.

I also think there's a growing recognition and acceptance at least of the value in the more intuitive type of intelligence many women seem to possess, rather than a need for a woman to think like a man in a more linear sequence to be accepted. There's still a great fear and distrust, not to mention misunderstanding, of the emotional differences....but this too shall catch up in time.

As far as having to do everything...well, with rights come responsibilities. But then again, it's also up to the woman to determine how much (or little) she will accept from a man, isn't it? Choices...it's all about choices. And I think that's the biggest change, women having so many choices. I realize these are generalities, but they cover the basics of where the rest of the more concrete changes come from.

Somebody, Steinem I think, said feminism freed men to cry. To which somebody else replied, "Well, they certainly have more to cry about."

I just think it's important to remember that whenever we attach the suffix "-ism" to any word, we are creating an ideology, with a certain viewpoint and set of beliefs. I cannot hear the term feminism without thinking of, forgive me, the real feminists. I'm sorry but I just don't think many young women today qualify, however much they want to define themselves as such.

And that's a good thing.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

 

[goldcatt]

I was looking for more specific examples, like changes in the legal system, in the workplace, in public education - hell even in The Girl Scouts. Any thoughts there?

For example, I believe you can trace today's disparity between the number of young men who choose to attend to college and the number of young women to the feminist influence in the public schools.

In the workplace, antennae seem always to be up for sexual harrassment and the creation of a hostile environment. Often the accusation is enough, whether it has merit or not.

More women than men suffer from depression. I wonder if the failed promises of feminism, namely the delaying of marriage and child-rearing for a satisfying career, might be partially to blame, especially when marriage and child rearing turn out to be something less than the 50-50 partnership they were told they would have with their new, enlightened, man. Women changed. Men didn't. And won't anytime soon.

Hmmm....concrete changes? There have been quite a few, actually. Look back to the 50s, 60s, 70s, other than teachers in public educationhow well was a woman's point of view represented in the legal system? Where were the women working, and for what percentage of a man's pay? What names were women called who chose to pursue a career, even though so many have minds that crave challenge and input beyond the matters of hearth and home?

Not everything is perfect, of course. Yes some men are a bit slow to catch up. But not all of them. I find plenty of men are perfectly willing to see and respect me as not only an individual instead of a thing or a piece of furniture, but also as an equal in all the ways that matter. Intellectually being a big one for me, nothing grinds my personal gears faster than a man who treats me like a retarded kindergartener.

I also think there's a growing recognition and acceptance at least of the value in the more intuitive type of intelligence many women seem to possess, rather than a need for a woman to think like a man in a more linear sequence to be accepted. There's still a great fear and distrust, not to mention misunderstanding, of the emotional differences....but this too shall catch up in time.

As far as having to do everything...well, with rights come responsibilities. But then again, it's also up to the woman to determine how much (or little) she will accept from a man, isn't it? Choices...it's all about choices. And I think that's the biggest change, women having so many choices. I realize these are generalities, but they cover the basics of where the rest of the more concrete changes come from.

Somebody, Steinem I think, said feminism freed men to cry. To which somebody else replied, "Well, they certainly have more to cry about."

I just think it's important to remember that whenever we attach the suffix "-ism" to any word, we are creating an ideology, with a certain viewpoint and set of beliefs. I cannot hear the term feminism without thinking of, forgive me, the real feminists. I'm sorry but I just don't think many young women today qualify, however much they want to define themsevles as such.

And that's a good thing.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I think feminism, like every other "ism", has changed dramatically over time as the goals and needs have changed. But it's still and always was at the heart about the same thing - being not just treated outwardly but accepted and respected as equal. Equal doesn't have to mean the same - and I think that's what a lot of the younger feminists have embraced. But the core concept is unchanged, it's the means to that end that's different. Of course, now we can afford to do it differently.

Which brings us more or less full circle.

 

[24/7]

I consider myself a "feminist". I believe in equal pay for equal work; I am opposed to human trafficking and the sex trade; I deplore domestic violence and deadbeat dads and believe there should be harsher penalties; I am against discrimination when it comes to pregnancy and childbirth; and I fully support raising our daughters to be leaders or homemakers - whatever they choose to do.

NOW would reject my application on the spot if they saw my cute elephant jewelry.

Women used to know how to make a 'nest' and pick a good provider before having children. With the advent of feminism and the denigrating of 'stay-at-home' moms, both men and women are experiencing undue stresses.

I have often wondered how some women can go through 9-months of carrying a kid, go through the pain of birth THEN, blithely drop the kid off in daycare and toodle off to work.

Jeeezus, another nine-year old weighs in. Maybe she has to support her kids because her good-for-nothing spouse left her for a hottie he met in a bar.

It's her own fault for choosing a jerk to marry. That happens a lot then, folks like you blame ALL men. OR..maybe she is witholding sex and he is getting it where he can. Please don't try to pull that tired BS out of the closet.

Or maybe the family needs TWO incomes in order to survive in this economy. Imagine that...

Why does a married woman get pregnant when she can't stay home and take care of her own kids? Was the abortion clinic closed or something?

 

[24/7]

Hmmm....concrete changes? There have been quite a few, actually. Look back to the 50s, 60s, 70s, other than teachers in public educationhow well was a woman's point of view represented in the legal system? Where were the women working, and for what percentage of a man's pay? What names were women called who chose to pursue a career, even though so many have minds that crave challenge and input beyond the matters of hearth and home?

Not everything is perfect, of course. Yes some men are a bit slow to catch up. But not all of them. I find plenty of men are perfectly willing to see and respect me as not only an individual instead of a thing or a piece of furniture, but also as an equal in all the ways that matter. Intellectually being a big one for me, nothing grinds my personal gears faster than a man who treats me like a retarded kindergartener.

I also think there's a growing recognition and acceptance at least of the value in the more intuitive type of intelligence many women seem to possess, rather than a need for a woman to think like a man in a more linear sequence to be accepted. There's still a great fear and distrust, not to mention misunderstanding, of the emotional differences....but this too shall catch up in time.

As far as having to do everything...well, with rights come responsibilities. But then again, it's also up to the woman to determine how much (or little) she will accept from a man, isn't it? Choices...it's all about choices. And I think that's the biggest change, women having so many choices. I realize these are generalities, but they cover the basics of where the rest of the more concrete changes come from.

Somebody, Steinem I think, said feminism freed men to cry. To which somebody else replied, "Well, they certainly have more to cry about."

I just think it's important to remember that whenever we attach the suffix "-ism" to any word, we are creating an ideology, with a certain viewpoint and set of beliefs. I cannot hear the term feminism without thinking of, forgive me, the real feminists. I'm sorry but I just don't think many young women today qualify, however much they want to define themsevles as such.

And that's a good thing.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I think feminism, like every other "ism", has changed dramatically over time as the goals and needs have changed. But it's still and always was at the heart about the same thing - being not just treated outwardly but accepted and respected as equal. Equal doesn't have to mean the same - and I think that's what a lot of the younger feminists have embraced. But the core concept is unchanged, it's the means to that end that's different. Of course, now we can afford to do it differently.

Which brings us more or less full circle.

Men and women are not 'equal' they are DIFFERENT. Equal pay for equal work is not EQUALITY it is simply being paid fairly. Somehow the whole feminist movement blossomed into 'I am woman hear me roar' instead of actually exhibiting their feminine differences. Men who act like men are considered 'jerks' by some feminists. Boys are becoming feminized and men are generally thought of as expendable by the more radical factions of feminism.

 

[goldcatt]

Somebody, Steinem I think, said feminism freed men to cry. To which somebody else replied, "Well, they certainly have more to cry about."

I just think it's important to remember that whenever we attach the suffix "-ism" to any word, we are creating an ideology, with a certain viewpoint and set of beliefs. I cannot hear the term feminism without thinking of, forgive me, the real feminists. I'm sorry but I just don't think many young women today qualify, however much they want to define themsevles as such.

And that's a good thing.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I think feminism, like every other "ism", has changed dramatically over time as the goals and needs have changed. But it's still and always was at the heart about the same thing - being not just treated outwardly but accepted and respected as equal. Equal doesn't have to mean the same - and I think that's what a lot of the younger feminists have embraced. But the core concept is unchanged, it's the means to that end that's different. Of course, now we can afford to do it differently.

Which brings us more or less full circle.

Men and women are not 'equal' they are DIFFERENT. Equal pay for equal work is not EQUALITY it is simply being paid fairly. Somehow the whole feminist movement blossomed into 'I am woman hear me roar' instead of actually exhibiting their feminine differences. Men who act like men are considered 'jerks' by some feminists. Boys are becoming feminized and men are generally thought of as expendable by the more radical factions of feminism.

The day you become a man in any real sense of the word, we'll talk. 'k?

 

[24/7]

I think feminism, like every other "ism", has changed dramatically over time as the goals and needs have changed. But it's still and always was at the heart about the same thing - being not just treated outwardly but accepted and respected as equal. Equal doesn't have to mean the same - and I think that's what a lot of the younger feminists have embraced. But the core concept is unchanged, it's the means to that end that's different. Of course, now we can afford to do it differently.

Which brings us more or less full circle.

Men and women are not 'equal' they are DIFFERENT. Equal pay for equal work is not EQUALITY it is simply being paid fairly. Somehow the whole feminist movement blossomed into 'I am woman hear me roar' instead of actually exhibiting their feminine differences. Men who act like men are considered 'jerks' by some feminists. Boys are becoming feminized and men are generally thought of as expendable by the more radical factions of feminism.

The day you become a man in any real sense of the word, we'll talk. 'k?

I see I struck a chord...Sorry...didn't mean to bring up bad memories.

 

[JakeStarkey]

As many commentators have noted, 2010 is shaping up to be the year of the Republican woman. According to Center for American Women and Politics, 14 Republican women have thrown their girdles into the ring for the U.S. Senate and 94 for the House of Representatives. According to CAWP director Debbie Walsh, 60 of the 106 females who are challenging House incumbents are Republicans.

“There is a conscious effort being made on the part of a lot of conservative women politicians to be using this word, feminist,” Carrie Lukas, vice-president and director of policy for the conservative Independent Women’s Forum, told The Daily Caller. “But they are offering a very different brand of liberation than what is usually associated with the term, which has really become, over the last few decades, associated with groups like NOW [National Organization for Women], which are essentially indistinguishable from the Democratic Party and are more about big government than women.”

NOW executive vice-president, Bonnie Grabenhofer, told The Daily Caller that to her, “feminism is a social justice movement aimed at getting social, political, and economic equality for women. We work for the advancement of women on multiple fronts.”


Read more: Conservatives try to claim the term feminist as their own | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

Conservatives try to claim the term feminist as their own | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

Is feminism simply about abortion or about empowering women in the workplace and politics?

True feminism, in my opinion, is simply that viewpoint that women want men to have the same rights they do.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Somebody, Steinem I think, said feminism freed men to cry. To which somebody else replied, "Well, they certainly have more to cry about."

I just think it's important to remember that whenever we attach the suffix "-ism" to any word, we are creating an ideology, with a certain viewpoint and set of beliefs. I cannot hear the term feminism without thinking of, forgive me, the real feminists. I'm sorry but I just don't think many young women today qualify, however much they want to define themsevles as such.

And that's a good thing.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I think feminism, like every other "ism", has changed dramatically over time as the goals and needs have changed. But it's still and always was at the heart about the same thing - being not just treated outwardly but accepted and respected as equal. Equal doesn't have to mean the same - and I think that's what a lot of the younger feminists have embraced. But the core concept is unchanged, it's the means to that end that's different. Of course, now we can afford to do it differently.

Which brings us more or less full circle.

Men and women are not 'equal' they are DIFFERENT. Equal pay for equal work is not EQUALITY it is simply being paid fairly. Somehow the whole feminist movement blossomed into 'I am woman hear me roar' instead of actually exhibiting their feminine differences. Men who act like men are considered 'jerks' by some feminists. Boys are becoming feminized and men are generally thought of as expendable by the more radical factions of feminism.

Various forms of feminism, as characterized by the Eagle Forum to NOW, as are various forms of masculinism. No real man is fearful of centrist feminism, he supports it and its goals.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think the distinction should be made between the militant feminist who is usually a pro-woman, anti-male type, and the activist feminist who is out trying to change the world and the feminist that I believe I am and I suppose have been my whole life.

For me being a feminist means that I, not anybody else, gets to decide who and what I will be, who I will become, what I will dream about, shoot for, aspire to be. I will be limited only by what I am able to achieve and not anybody's preconceived ideas about what that should be.

That means that I can be a stay at home mom if I want to be or a professional woman if that is what I want to be or both, and I don't need to feel dininished in the least by my choice.

I can cry at the movies and still be tough as nails if I need to be. Appreciating and enjoying my femininity does not make me weak in the least, nor does appreciating and respecting men who I do see as different from women.

I can work at anything I have the skill set and mental and physical ability to do, and I deserve to be paid the same as a guy IF I'm doing the same work the guy does and have put in the same hours and effort and can accomplish the same production. But I don't need to be accommodated because I'm a woman, wife, mother. I just want a fair shot at what I know I can do.

I just want to be acknowledged, and appreciated, and respected for who I am rather than for what I demand.

I am woman. Hear me roar.