What is a feminist?

[goldcatt]

There is no joke there. And no one in their right mind would try to keep a woman from being able to stand on her own and make her own choices.

I won't deny there was a time when women were second class citizens, and I don't espouse a return to those days.

My objection to the feminists of the 70s was their obvious disdain for the traditional, going well beyond a demand for independence and equal opportunity. They compared marriage to prostitution. They considered homemaking unfit for anyone with half a brain. They compared giving birth to shitting out a pumpkin. (Maybe it is.)

If you want to salute them, go ahead. I believe they damaged more than they improved. You keep Betty and Gloria and Bella, I'll take Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham and Phyllis Schlafly.

I don't personally agree with their radicalism, but they were the necessary equal and opposite reaction.

And without them, and much more importantly the many, many more less radical activists who followed some but not all of their ideas, feminism wouldn't be what it is today - which is exactly what you and I both seem to agree on.

Judging any movement by its most extreme is dipping a toe across the line into stereotyping, LD. Yeah there's a hint of truth to any stereotype but it's like only watching a five minute scene from a two-hour movie. You miss the whole story.

I'm referencing the leading feminist thinkers of that day, GC. Quoting the leaders is not sterotyping. As I'm sure you know, there are far more radical quotes I could paste.

They were social engineers who denied basic, eternal and human truths. They were dead wrong. Give boys tea sets to play with? Give girls toy guns? Please.

You're point works in reverse as well. I believe many younger women today have no idea what the label feminist once meant. I doubt they would choose it if they did. That you choose it is not surprising, but that you have to qualify it speaks volumes about the history of the term.

You may be right. I'm on the edge between what you would call the 70's generation, having been a child then, then, and what you woud call today's youth, being...er...not all that young anymore.

I think the second generation of any movement, like myself and those my age, see the balances more clearly than those who come before and after. Today's youth don't have any way to relate to the feminist leaders of the 70s perhaps, but they also have no way to relate to the world that created them. They haven't seen the changes to appreciate them. And some of the older generation is so steeped in that world before the feminist movement, they fail to see how much has changed.

Although I woud beg to differ that gender specific toys and games have anything to do with basic eternal truths. I have boy-girl twins who play well together when they're not trying to kill each other. 'Nuff said.

 

[LuckyDan]

I don't personally agree with their radicalism, but they were the necessary equal and opposite reaction.

And without them, and much more importantly the many, many more less radical activists who followed some but not all of their ideas, feminism wouldn't be what it is today - which is exactly what you and I both seem to agree on.

Judging any movement by its most extreme is dipping a toe across the line into stereotyping, LD. Yeah there's a hint of truth to any stereotype but it's like only watching a five minute scene from a two-hour movie. You miss the whole story.

I'm referencing the leading feminist thinkers of that day, GC. Quoting the leaders is not sterotyping. As I'm sure you know, there are far more radical quotes I could paste.

They were social engineers who denied basic, eternal and human truths. They were dead wrong. Give boys tea sets to play with? Give girls toy guns? Please.

You're point works in reverse as well. I believe many younger women today have no idea what the label feminist once meant. I doubt they would choose it if they did. That you choose it is not surprising, but that you have to qualify it speaks volumes about the history of the term.

You may be right. I'm on the edge between what you would call the 70's generation, having been a child then, then, and what you woud call today's youth, being...er...not all that young anymore.

I think the second generation of any movement, like myself and those my age, see the balances more clearly than those who come before and after. Today's youth don't have any way to relate to the feminist leaders of the 70s perhaps, but they also have no way to relate to the world that created them. They haven't seen the changes to appreciate them.

Although I woud beg to differ that gender specific toys and games have anything to do with basic eternal truths. I have boy-girl twins who play well together when they're not trying to kill each other. 'Nuff said.

I've never raised same-aged kids. To find my son and daughter playing together at any point in their childhood was a rare thing.

I mentioned the toys because that was the typical example fems would drag out to support their arguiments that gender roles were assigned by a patriarchal society. Give boys tea sets to play with, they said, and boys will be less violent, more pliable, more...like girls. Give girls toy guns, and they will learn to be more competitive, more aggressive, more capable of taking on patriarchal society.

Regarding male and female differences, they believed it was limited to the physical. The plumbing is a little different, they would argue, but internally all is the same. It was societal conditioning, they said, that made us falsely believe there were any real differences between men and women.

 

[Cecilie1200]

As many commentators have noted, 2010 is shaping up to be the year of the Republican woman. According to Center for American Women and Politics, 14 Republican women have thrown their girdles into the ring for the U.S. Senate and 94 for the House of Representatives. According to CAWP director Debbie Walsh, 60 of the 106 females who are challenging House incumbents are Republicans.

“There is a conscious effort being made on the part of a lot of conservative women politicians to be using this word, feminist,” Carrie Lukas, vice-president and director of policy for the conservative Independent Women’s Forum, told The Daily Caller. “But they are offering a very different brand of liberation than what is usually associated with the term, which has really become, over the last few decades, associated with groups like NOW [National Organization for Women], which are essentially indistinguishable from the Democratic Party and are more about big government than women.”

NOW executive vice-president, Bonnie Grabenhofer, told The Daily Caller that to her, “feminism is a social justice movement aimed at getting social, political, and economic equality for women. We work for the advancement of women on multiple fronts.”


Read more: Conservatives try to claim the term feminist as their own | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

Conservatives try to claim the term feminist as their own | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

Is feminism simply about abortion or about empowering women in the workplace and politics?

A feminist is a supporter of femminism.

Femminism describes political, cultural, and economic movements aimed at establishing greater rights, legal protection for women, and women's liberation.

I believe it is not a left/right thing but an Up/Down thing

Then how come I tend to feel more put-upon and annoyed by feminists than I ever have by men, the patriarchy, what-have-you?

I have no interest in ever being referred to as a "feminist", but I suppose I can understand why conservative women in politics have no choice but to try to work with it.

 

[goldcatt]

I'm referencing the leading feminist thinkers of that day, GC. Quoting the leaders is not sterotyping. As I'm sure you know, there are far more radical quotes I could paste.

They were social engineers who denied basic, eternal and human truths. They were dead wrong. Give boys tea sets to play with? Give girls toy guns? Please.

You're point works in reverse as well. I believe many younger women today have no idea what the label feminist once meant. I doubt they would choose it if they did. That you choose it is not surprising, but that you have to qualify it speaks volumes about the history of the term.

You may be right. I'm on the edge between what you would call the 70's generation, having been a child then, then, and what you woud call today's youth, being...er...not all that young anymore.

I think the second generation of any movement, like myself and those my age, see the balances more clearly than those who come before and after. Today's youth don't have any way to relate to the feminist leaders of the 70s perhaps, but they also have no way to relate to the world that created them. They haven't seen the changes to appreciate them.

Although I woud beg to differ that gender specific toys and games have anything to do with basic eternal truths. I have boy-girl twins who play well together when they're not trying to kill each other. 'Nuff said.

I've never rasied same-aged kids. To find my son and daughter playing together at any point in their childhood was a rare thing.

I mentioned the toys because that was the typical example fems would drag out to support their arguiments that gender roles were assigned by a patriarchal society. Give boys tea sets to play with, they said, and boys will be less violent, more pliable, more...like girls. Give girls toy guns, and they will learn to be more competitive, more aggressive, more capable of taking on patriarchal society.

Regarding male and female differences, they believed it was limited to the physical. The plumbing is a little different, they would argue, but internally all is the same. It was societal conditioning, they said, that made us falsely believe there were any real differences between men and women.

And you don't think those or similar claims had to be made, right or wrong, in order to shake up the old accepted "truths" and make both men and women look at gender roles and stereotyping in a new light? After all, we are where we are for a reason. Maybe even if the premise was somewhat flawed it made people think outside the usual box...and that's what was really needed?

 

[sparky]

What is a feminist?

someone who recognizes the symbiant relationship of genders, much like a well rounded maleist would

~S~

 

[Sky Dancer]

The last people I want defining feminists are Conservatives who have used it as a smear word for longer than I've been alive.

That statement is more true in the reverse. Feminists despise conservative women and berate any woman who chooses a traditional role. Ask any stay-at-home mom.

Nonsense. Feminists are about women having choices and equal opportunity. The choice to be a stay at home mom, career woman, working mom.

You're generalizing.

 

[Richard-H]

A true "Feminist" is a person that believes women should have equality of opportunity AND equality of RESPONSIBILTY.

Some women who call themselves "Feminists" are ready to accept the equality of opportunity, but shun the equality of responsibilty.

Of course, according to conservatives, no one has responsibility to the society, and therefore women should not have either. It's a dog eat dog world. Socio-economic survival of the fittest.

On the other hand, liberals do believe that everyone has responsibilities to soceity and therefore the women who are true "feminists" tends to also be liberals. Some people choose not to be dogs.

What make it more confusing is that any gain by women is considered by many to be a feminist accomplishment, even if those gains are obtained by taking advantage of sexuality - in which many, many women excel.

The idea that women are catagorically exploited sexually is just plain silly and naive. Since the beginning of time women have used sex to their advantage in every way they possibly can.

While it is a vile crime for women to be forced into prostitution and pornography against their will, the simple fact is, most prostitues and porn stars are very, very willing. Most come from very wealthy powerful families.

What's more is, the entire notion of western civilization being male-dominated is a bunch of bunk. Western civilization has been a feminine dominated society. The highest levels of our soceity have always been controlled by the social networking of women. It's been a soceity where men do all the work and have all the responsibilities, while women just stay at home, raise the children and are masters of social manipulation.

It's the women historically who decide which man will be an executive, who will marry into money, and the entire social economic pecking order of society. It's just simply that women are infinitely more gifted at communication - and their motives are always sexual.

That leaves us with two type of soceities: a feminist soceity and a femine soceity. These are what are trully in opposition to each ither.

Us guys are just working dogs either way.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Conservatives try to claim the term feminist as their own | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

Is feminism simply about abortion or about empowering women in the workplace and politics?

A feminist is a supporter of femminism.

Femminism describes political, cultural, and economic movements aimed at establishing greater rights, legal protection for women, and women's liberation.

I believe it is not a left/right thing but an Up/Down thing

Then how come I tend to feel more put-upon and annoyed by feminists than I ever have by men, the patriarchy, what-have-you?

I have no interest in ever being referred to as a "feminist", but I suppose I can understand why conservative women in politics have no choice but to try to work with it.

Interesting. Who is it you're calling 'feminists'? What exactly is it about those women that annoys you?

I consider myself a feminist, I'm just curious about your stereotype.

 

[sparky]

tarbender! another round of fraternization with a vitirol chaser please.....

 

[LuckyDan]

The last people I want defining feminists are Conservatives who have used it as a smear word for longer than I've been alive.

That statement is more true in the reverse. Feminists despise conservative women and berate any woman who chooses a traditional role. Ask any stay-at-home mom.

Nonsense. Feminists are about women having choices and equal opportunity. The choice to be a stay at home mom, career woman, working mom.

You're generalizing.

Yes, I am, but so are you.

Scroll back, if you care to, and read the article I posted by a contemporary feminist who thinks "choice feminism" has undone the hard-won accomplishments of the movement feminists.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And that philosophy is?

Freedom of choice. Conservatives in general from what I've seen want to eliminate Abortion, Gay Marriage, and Pornography. Along with several other things both relating to women and not relating to women. This includes limiting sale if not getting rid of completely the morning after pill. That is elimination of choice from the citizen's hands and policing by the government in order to control the populace. Why would feminists ever support such things?

Um, because they're about "freedom of choice", which would include the freedom of women to choose those beliefs and philosophies . . . unless the one bragging about their commitment to "freedom" is a lying hypocrite.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Rabbi, your neg rep comment did not answer my question. And I did read the paper, neither were ever convicted or accused of rape.

No, neither was CONVICTED. Obviously, both were ACCUSED, or we would not now be talking about the accusations against them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So all feminists are ugly?

According to Dan, all the ones he met are ugly. Clearly he's met all feminists.

Where did he say he'd met all feminists, or even imply it? He spoke only of the ones he actually HAS met. You imagined the rest of it.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Feminism got a nasty rap from Mr Limbaugh with his Nazi spin. He turned feminists into cartoon harpies.

 

[sparky]

Q~ would a feminist have an avatar like this>

???

 

[Sky Dancer]

A feminist would have an avatar any damn way she wanted.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So feminists are pro-porn? Wow. They have evolved. Tho I've never met one I'd care to see naked.

Comments like those that discredit what you have to say on the topic. No need to be spiteful.

Oh, but calling me bordeline dishonest is cool.

I heard Andrea Dworkin say years ago that one of the chief reasons feminists should oppose porn is because it lessens male support for the women's movement.

Regarding your own credibility, if you're gonna defend them, don't list porn as one of their champion causes.

Andrea Dworkin is just one person.

Feminists For Free Expression

Clearly, it depends on which feminist you're talking about.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Comments like those that discredit what you have to say on the topic. No need to be spiteful.

Oh, but calling me bordeline dishonest is cool.

I heard Andrea Dworkin say years ago that one of the chief reasons feminists should oppose porn is because it lessens male support for the women's movement.

Regarding your own credibility, if you're gonna defend them, don't list porn as one of their champion causes.

Andrea Dworkin is just one person.

Feminists For Free Expression

Clearly, it depends on which feminist you're talking about.

Thank you for not lumping all feminists together.

 

[LuckyDan]

You may be right. I'm on the edge between what you would call the 70's generation, having been a child then, then, and what you woud call today's youth, being...er...not all that young anymore.

I think the second generation of any movement, like myself and those my age, see the balances more clearly than those who come before and after. Today's youth don't have any way to relate to the feminist leaders of the 70s perhaps, but they also have no way to relate to the world that created them. They haven't seen the changes to appreciate them.

Although I woud beg to differ that gender specific toys and games have anything to do with basic eternal truths. I have boy-girl twins who play well together when they're not trying to kill each other. 'Nuff said.

I've never rasied same-aged kids. To find my son and daughter playing together at any point in their childhood was a rare thing.

I mentioned the toys because that was the typical example fems would drag out to support their arguiments that gender roles were assigned by a patriarchal society. Give boys tea sets to play with, they said, and boys will be less violent, more pliable, more...like girls. Give girls toy guns, and they will learn to be more competitive, more aggressive, more capable of taking on patriarchal society.

Regarding male and female differences, they believed it was limited to the physical. The plumbing is a little different, they would argue, but internally all is the same. It was societal conditioning, they said, that made us falsely believe there were any real differences between men and women.

And you don't think those or similar claims had to be made, right or wrong, in order to shake up the old accepted "truths" and make both men and women look at gender roles and stereotyping in a new light? After all, we are where we are for a reason. Maybe even if the premise was somewhat flawed it made people think outside the usual box...and that's what was really needed?

Now, that surprises me.

No, I don't. It's the old "the end justifies the means" thing. It says to hell with truth, I want change. It is intellectually dishonest on it's face and it serves no worthwhile purpose. It leads only to more confusion and it has finally led to a new definition of the term feminist that is essentially meaningless, as many of the posts on this thread attest. If you think women should not be treated like shit, you're a feminist.

And if the movement fems knew what they were saying was bullshit even as they were saying it then they were not only stupid, they were liars.

 

[LuckyDan]

Feminism got a nasty rap from Mr Limbaugh with his Nazi spin. He turned feminists into cartoon harpies.

Rush spoke of the ones I refer to as movement feminists as "NAGs", for the National Association of Gals, or whatever. That they are so easy to lampoon is not his fault.

Also, when he speaks of Feminazis, he is not talking about just any feminist. He is talking about a particular type of feminist who wants as many abortions as possible to take place. And believe me, there are such feminists.