Zone1 Unbelievers cannot believe until God permits them to do so

[ding]

I think your issue is with God.

It's not because I don't believe he prevents anyone from coming to him. Jesus explained it very clearly in his parable of the prodigal son.

 

[K9Buck]

It's not because I don't believe he prevents anyone from coming to him. Jesus explained it very clearly in his parable of the prodigal son.

You misunderstand and then lash out at me for providing scripture. I'm gleaning that engaging with you is a fruitless endeavor.

 

[ding]

You misunderstand and then lash out at me for providing scripture. I'm gleaning that engaging with you is a fruitless endeavor.

I'm not lashing out. You don't like the logical conclusion of your interpretation and that's why you see my disagreement with you as lashing out.

 

[g5000]

It's not for us to judge them. For reasons only known to God, not everyone is yet permitted to believe in and follow him. No amount of evangelizing will bring them to God. We can plant seeds but it's up to God to let them believe. So, stop banging your head against the wall. Share the word and accept that some are not yet ready to believe it. Don't be arrogant about it. Instead, be happy knowing that you have been blessed.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

John 6:44-45​

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.​

​

Romans 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

As a former atheist, I would like to provide my two cents (Bible reference! :Lol

Due to my very harsh upbringing, in which I suffered every manner of abuse, I became convinced at the age of 15 there was no God. In fact, I was pretty sure everyone was put on this Earth just to fuck with me. I had an extreme level of paranoia, and I used to sit on some railroad tracks and wait for a train to run me over.

It was at this time that I began drinking alcohol, and drinking very heavily. I tell people that alcohol saved my life. It was the only means of respite from the hellish life I was living.

The military was my only escape and I joined as soon as I was able, as did two of my brothers.

Not a lot of people know this, but a lot of veterans came to the military pre-traumatized. Then you are thrown into some of the worst conflicts, famines, revolutions and whatnot and you come away with PTSD like you wouldn't believe.

My atheistic confirmation bias was fed a steady diet of there being no God after experiencing all the worst things that humans can do to each other around the planet. When on a mission, you find yourself thinking, "These people need killing."

However, whatever divine spark there is in all of us was constantly seeking evidence of the divine. I spent many years interrogating the local holy men, asking them hostile questions.

For instance, I asked several priests what "Jesus died for our sins" meant. Now, I am sure that every one of them answered that question, but like the Pharaoh in the Old Testament, my heart was hardened, and I was incapable of hearing or understanding their responses.

Was this God who had hardened my heart, or was it my life experiences? You decide.

I also sought out a lot of psychologists to help me with my multi-layered PTSD. To say I had anger issues would be an understatement.

However, I was beyond the reach of doctors and priests. I was too damaged. Too angry. Too drunk.

To cut to the chase, I went through a lot of women. And after a bad argument with my latest crazy bartender girlfriend, I set out on the road with the intention of going on a serious bender.

I sought out another girlfriend who lived three hours away and off we went for a night of carousing.

At some point, we ended up at another woman's apartment. I was only on my third drink. A "pony beer" because I was damn near broke.

It normally took me over a dozen hard liquor beverages to even begin to feel a buzz, and I usually drank around three dozen drinks on a given evening.

I was only on my third pony beer and had just taken a couple sips when, out of nowhere, the desire to drink left me.

I remember setting the drink down and staring at it, knowing it was the last alcoholic beverage I would ever drink.

This stunned me. I stared at that thing and then said, "Huh!"

I hit the road back to my bartender girlfriend's trailer the next morning.

About halfway back, I was on a long country highway in the middle of nowhere in Mississippi when I was suddenly surrounded by an intense white light.

I was not blinded, per se. But I was unable to see anything around me but that light.

And then, I felt the unmistakable presence of God. I felt, but did not see, a physical presence of the Creator. I heard no voice, saw no being, but His unmistakable presence was there.

I know how insane this sounds. In fact, I kept this event to myself for half a decade before I ever told anyone else but my girlfriend.

This white light experience lasted for some moments. I don't know how long. But when it left, I was still behind the wheel of my moving vehicle on that highway.

Yeah. Freaky as shit.

When I arrived at my girlfriend's place and knocked, she opened the door, took one look at me, and said, "You found God!"

Freakier still!

To this day, no matter how bad life has gotten, and it has gotten more bad than you can even imagine, I have never lost my faith that there is a God.

Why did this happen to me? I have no idea. But I have devoted my life ever since to serving mankind in whatever way I can. I have founded two non-profit charities and worked with addicts, alcoholics, people in prison, the homeless and the friendless and the helpless, going on 30 years now.

I attend Christian churches, though I always let the pastors know I "did not get the Jesus package" during that white light experience. I am not particular to any brand of Christianity, I like them all.

Now here's a funny thing which may or may not make your case for you. When I used to read the Bible, it was all contradictions to me. And God came across as a vengeful asshole who set us up to fail.

When I picked up the Bible and read it after my white light experience, it was an entirely different book. I spent hours and hours laughing my ass off as I read it, as it now made complete sense to me!

I know this all sounds totally nuts. But it is my truth.

Thanks for the topic.

 

[K9Buck]

As a former atheist, I would like to provide my two cents (Bible reference! :Lol

Due to my very harsh upbringing, in which I suffered every manner of abuse, I became convinced at the age of 15 there was no God. In fact, I was pretty sure everyone was put on this Earth just to fuck with me. I had an extreme level of paranoia, and I used to sit on some railroad tracks and wait for a train to run me over.

It was at this time that I began drinking alcohol, and drinking very heavily. I tell people that alcohol saved my life. It was the only means of respite from the hellish life I was living.

The military was my only escape and I joined as soon as I was able, as did two of my brothers.

Not a lot of people know this, but a lot of veterans came to the military pre-traumatized. Then you are thrown into some of the worst conflicts, famines, revolutions and whatnot and you come away with PTSD like you wouldn't believe.

My atheistic confirmation bias was fed a steady diet of there being no God after experiencing all the worst things that humans can do to each other around the planet. When on a mission, you find yourself thinking, "These people need killing."

However, whatever divine spark there is in all of us was constantly seeking evidence of the divine. I spent many years interrogating the local holy men, asking them hostile questions.

For instance, I asked several priests what "Jesus died for our sins" meant. Now, I am sure that every one of them answered that question, but like the Pharaoh in the Old Testament, my heart was hardened, and I was incapable of hearing or understanding their responses.

Was this God who had hardened my heart, or was it my life experiences? You decide.

I also sought out a lot of psychologists to help me with my multi-layered PTSD. To say I had anger issues would be an understatement.

However, I was beyond the reach of doctors and priests. I was too damaged. Too angry. Too drunk.

To cut to the chase, I went through a lot of women. And after a bad argument with my latest crazy bartender girlfriend, I set out on the road with the intention of going on a serious bender.

I sought out another girlfriend who lived three hours away and off we went for a night of carousing.

At some point, we ended up at another woman's apartment. I was only on my third drink. A "pony beer" because I was damn near broke.

It normally took me over a dozen hard liquor beverages to even begin to feel a buzz, and I usually drank around three dozen drinks on a given evening.

I was only on my third pony beer and had just taken a couple sips when, out of nowhere, the desire to drink left me.

I remember setting the drink down and staring at it, knowing it was the last alcoholic beverage I would ever drink.

This stunned me. I stared at that thing and then said, "Huh!"

I hit the road back to my bartender girlfriend's trailer the next morning.

About halfway back, I was on a long country highway in the middle of nowhere in Mississippi when I was suddenly surrounded by an intense white light.

I was not blinded, per se. But I was unable to see anything around me but that light.

And then, I felt the unmistakable presence of God. I felt, but did not see, a physical presence of the Creator. I heard no voice, saw no being, but His unmistakable presence was there.

I know how insane this sounds. In fact, I kept this event to myself for half a decade before I ever told anyone else but my girlfriend.

This white light experience lasted for some moments. I don't know how long. But when it left, I was still behind the wheel of my moving vehicle on that highway.

Yeah. Freaky as shit.

When I arrived at my girlfriend's place and knocked, she opened the door, took one look at me, and said, "You found God!"

Freakier still!

To this day, no matter how bad life has gotten, and it has gotten more bad than you can even imagine, I have never lost my faith that there is a God.

Why did this happen to me? I have no idea. But I have devoted my life ever since to serving mankind in whatever way I can. I have founded two non-profit charities and worked with addicts, alcoholics, people in prison, the homeless and the friendless and the helpless, going on 30 years now.

I attend Christian churches, though I always let the pastors know I "did not get the Jesus package" during that white light experience. I am not particular to any brand of Christianity, I like them all.

No here's a funny thing which may or may not make your case for you. When I used to read the Bible, it was all contradictions to me. And God came across as a vengeful asshole who set us up to fail.

When I picked up the Bible and read it after my white light experience, it was an entirely different book. I spent hours and hours laughing my ass off as I read it, as it now made complete sense to me!

I know this all sounds totally nuts. But is my truth.

Thanks for the topic.

Amazing! This is greatest post I've ever read on this forum. To say thank you for sharing it would be a massive understatement.

I think God allows us to be lost from him for a time, but not forever, so that we can learn.

You were lost but then God revealed himself to you and now you are found.

After I left the Catholic cult I too found myself being much more able to understand God's word. I don't claim to understand all of it but I believe I have a good understanding of God's nature and his methods.

Thanks again for sharing.

 

[Libby von H]

My comment was only about Buck's assertion that God is to blame for not permitting some people to find him. Logic categorically rejects that notion and the parable of the prodigal son confirms that rejection. Anyone who has studied that parable in depth will easily see the father was patiently waiting for his son to make a move towards him and then the father comes rushing to him. That has been my own personal experience as well.

But I don't deny that. Conscience is the voice of God, and you definitely rejecto or accpet that. And having rejected it, the quesiton of God can no longer be just academic. You are under condemnation and you know it.

 

[ding]

But I don't deny that. Conscience is the voice of God, and you definitely rejecto or accpet that. And having rejected it, the quesiton of God can no longer be just academic. You are under condemnation and you know it.

I hope you aren't suggesting I have rejected God. Because that couldn't be farther from the truth.

I personally am not comfortable speaking for God though. I can't say who he will condemn or won't. I only know that we will either be eternally united with God or eternally separated from God. And as near as I can tell that decision is totally up to us.

But putting that aside I don't believe the question of God is ever academic.

 

[Libby von H]

I hope you aren't suggesting I have rejected God. Because that couldn't be farther from the truth.

I personally am not comfortable speaking for God though. I can't say who he will condemn or won't. I only know that we will either be eternally united with God or eternally separated from God. And as near as I can tell that decision is totally up to us.

But putting that aside I don't believe the question of God is ever academic.

I wanted to show that your framing of the question is completely inadequate

 

[ding]

I wanted to show that your framing of the question is completely inadequate

I still don't see how. It's illogical to blame God for some not hearing his call. Which is what Buck was doing by mixing and matching verses out of context. And to your point, it's illogical to believe that we can know what God will do. And lastly, I don't believe the question of God can ever be academic. That seems like an entirely reasonable framing of this conversation.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Determinism is horse crap.

So is two-seed thinking.

 

[Leo123]

It's not for us to judge them. For reasons only known to God, not everyone is yet permitted to believe in and follow him. No amount of evangelizing will bring them to God. We can plant seeds but it's up to God to let them believe. So, stop banging your head against the wall. Share the word and accept that some are not yet ready to believe it. Don't be arrogant about it. Instead, be happy knowing that you have been blessed.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

John 6:44-45​

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.​

​

Romans 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

One permits oneself to recognize one's own essential spirit that is part of all creation which is 'God.'

 

[Libby von H]

It's not for us to judge them. For reasons only known to God, not everyone is yet permitted to believe in and follow him. No amount of evangelizing will bring them to God. We can plant seeds but it's up to God to let them believe. So, stop banging your head against the wall. Share the word and accept that some are not yet ready to believe it. Don't be arrogant about it. Instead, be happy knowing that you have been blessed.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

John 6:44-45​

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.​

​

Romans 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

No, that would mean all babies who died are doomed. What a horrible spiritual view you have.

 

[Libby von H]

One permits oneself to recognize one's own essential spirit that is part of all creation which is 'God.'

But that again means the opposite.
When it says in NT
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus,

That means not that everyone saved by Jesus knows it was Jesus --- how could it possibly???
It means that all who are saved are saved because of Jesus, whether they knew that explicitly or not.