Zone1 Unbelievers cannot believe until God permits them to do so

[K9Buck]

It's not for us to judge them. For reasons only known to God, not everyone is yet permitted to believe in and follow him. No amount of evangelizing will bring them to God. We can plant seeds but it's up to God to let them believe. So, stop banging your head against the wall. Share the word and accept that some are not yet ready to believe it. Don't be arrogant about it. Instead, be happy knowing that you have been blessed.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

John 6:44-45
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.
​

Romans 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

[luiza]

Same old nonsense .
Repeated ad infinitum as though they are desperate to prove the Universe somehow makes sense just to themselves .
Proof sent by special delivery .

 

[RodISHI]

It's not for us to judge them. For reasons only known to God, not everyone is yet permitted to believe in and follow him. No amount of evangelizing will bring them to God. We can plant seeds but it's up to God to let them believe. So, stop banging your head against the wall. Share the word and accept that some are not yet ready to believe it. Don't be arrogant about it. Instead, be happy knowing that you have been blessed.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

John 6:44-45​

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.​

​

Romans 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Well said.

 

[Meriweather]

Same old nonsense .
Repeated ad infinitum as though they are desperate to prove the Universe somehow makes sense just to themselves .
Proof sent by special delivery .

Religion, when seen as a mixture of God and science, is kind of like oil and vinegar. It may be a great taste combination, but the two do not mix well. A mix of God and philosophy does better. What is your philosophy when it comes to living?

 

[Meriweather]

For reasons only known to God, not everyone is yet permitted to believe in and follow him.

A bit of human logic can address this somewhat. For example, fennel does not mix well when grown next to many plants. It inhibits their growth. I love fennel just as much as any other garden vegetable, but I don't grow them together. Nor is it wise to raise sheep and carnivores in the same herd.

It is vital to understand that God loves both atheists and people of faith equally. It is the type of care each receives that is different.

 

[Libby von H]

It's not for us to judge them. For reasons only known to God, not everyone is yet permitted to believe in and follow him. No amount of evangelizing will bring them to God. We can plant seeds but it's up to God to let them believe. So, stop banging your head against the wall. Share the word and accept that some are not yet ready to believe it. Don't be arrogant about it. Instead, be happy knowing that you have been blessed.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

John 6:44-45​

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.​

​

Romans 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

But that seems to empty the Gospel of its basis. Why have a BIble when reading has no effect. Isn't the decision to actually read it a grace and to not read it, a refusal of grace. You can be free even if not free to give yourseslf Faith. By that standard we can't give ourself non-Fiath either. And reason loses its ability in natural theology to do what it did so welll for the pagans such as Plato, Aristotle and Cicero : to point to a CREATOR

 

[Blues Man]

It's not for us to judge them. For reasons only known to God, not everyone is yet permitted to believe in and follow him. No amount of evangelizing will bring them to God. We can plant seeds but it's up to God to let them believe. So, stop banging your head against the wall. Share the word and accept that some are not yet ready to believe it. Don't be arrogant about it. Instead, be happy knowing that you have been blessed.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

John 6:44-45​

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.​

​

Romans 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

So you are saying that unbelievers don't have free will because your god will not allow them to believe in it until it says so.

 

[K9Buck]

Why have a BIble when reading has no effect.

Where did I write that people shouldn't read the Bible?

 

[Libby von H]

So you are saying that unbelievers don't have free will because your god will not allow them to believe in it until it says so.

You seem to have misinterpreted the whole string of posts about this.
There are 3 points to consider.

1) Moral decisions knowable aside from religion are based on free will.
2) If you are not sure of your unbelief you are at least guilty of massive triviality for leaving it at that.
3) Whatever anyone here has said about God, the Creator is knowable by reason.

 

[K9Buck]

You seem to have misinterpreted the whole string of posts about this.
There are 3 points to consider.

1) Moral decisions knowable aside from religion are based on free will.
2) If you are not sure of your unbelief you are at least guilty of massive triviality for leaving it at that.
3) Whatever anyone here has said about God, the Creator is knowable by reason.

Jesus told us in Matthew 7:6 not to share our pearls with pigs. I encourage you to take his advice.

 

[Blues Man]

You seem to have misinterpreted the whole string of posts about this.
There are 3 points to consider.

1) Moral decisions knowable aside from religion are based on free will.
2) If you are not sure of your unbelief you are at least guilty of massive triviality for leaving it at that.
3) Whatever anyone here has said about God, the Creator is knowable by reason.

I was responding to the OP and his statements

And it can be argued that what you call free will is in large part nothing more than conditioning that people have received literally from the day they were born.

And The OP claimed that unbelievers don't believe because a god hasn't allowed them to believe yet. If a god must give you permission to believe then there is no free will in that belief.

Faith and reason have the most tenuous of connections.

 

[Meriweather]

And it can be argued that what you call free will is in large part nothing more than conditioning that people have received literally from the day they were born.

Then reading, writing, science, and math are also nothing more than conditioning that people have received literally from the day they were born. Knowledge from previous generations is passed along to the next. Learning of God is a branch of knowledge given to us by our ancestors.

And The OP claimed that unbelievers don't believe because a god hasn't allowed them to believe yet. If a god must give you permission to believe then there is no free will in that belief.

Just as one does not just walk into any other advanced or gifted class, it is by invitation, the same seems to be true of belief and faith. If no one can walk into an advanced math class without first having the rudiments of math down, it could be one cannot walk into belief and faith without first having similar rudiments for belief and faith.

 

[Blues Man]

Then reading, writing, science, and math are also nothing more than conditioning that people have received literally from the day they were born. Knowledge from previous generations is passed along to the next. Learning of God is a branch of knowledge given to us by our ancestors.

Just as one does not just walk into any other advanced or gifted class, it is by invitation, the same seems to be true of belief and faith. If no one can walk into an advanced math class without first having the rudiments of math down, it could be one cannot walk into belief and faith without first having similar rudiments for belief and faith.

You'll note I said "in large part" and not all.

The fact is that you did not freely choose all the conditioning that you have been subject to and you were completely unaware of most of it.

 

[Libby von H]

You seem to have misinterpreted the whole string of posts about this.
There are 3 points to consider.

1) Moral decisions knowable aside from religion are based on free will.
2) If you are not sure of your unbelief you are at least guilty of massive triviality for leaving it at that.
3) Whatever anyone here has said about God, the Creator is knowable by reason.

You always play Pope. It tickles me. So, it is a fact according to Pope you that unbelievers can't believe ....

 

[Blues Man]

You always play Pope. It tickles me. So, it is a fact according to Pope you that unbelievers can't believe ....

Do you realize you are talking to yourself right now?

 

[Meriweather]

The fact is that you did not freely choose all the conditioning that you have been subject to and you were completely unaware of most of it.

It was very much a choice. Eight children raised in a Catholic family. Two chose to explore faith and belief, six chose not to. Just as there are numerous branches of science one can study, the same is true of religion and faith. My parents, brother, and I focused on four different branches. (The vine of belief/faith has many branches.) My own daughters have their individual branches as well.

It's kind of like teaching...Great-grandfather, Father, and I all chose to teach--and all of us chose differently in that as well. One brother tried teaching and decided it wasn't for him--and chose a different career.

 

[Blues Man]

It was very much a choice. Eight children raised in a Catholic family. Two chose to explore faith and belief, six chose not to. Just as there are numerous branches of science one can study, the same is true of religion and faith. My parents, brother, and I focused on four different branches. (The vine of belief/faith has many branches.) My own daughters have their individual branches as well.

It's kind of like teaching...Great-grandfather, Father, and I all chose to teach--and all of us chose differently in that as well. One brother tried teaching and decided it wasn't for him--and chose a different career.

You are discounting the power of the subconscious.
You do not know what conditioning you have undergone that you are 100% unaware of.

To say you actively and consciously control every action and every choice you make is naive.

The human mind runs on an open source code and you have not written a large portion of that code.

 

[Meriweather]

You are discounting the power of the subconscious.
You do not know what conditioning you have undergone that you are 100% unaware of.

To say you actively and consciously control every action and every choice you make is naive.

The human mind runs on an open source code and you have not written a large portion of that code.

I am discounting nothing. Speaking of naive, you thinking I am more unfamiliar with the conscious and sub-conscience than you are is the very definition of naive.

 

[Blues Man]

I am discounting nothing. Speaking of naive, you thinking I am more unfamiliar with the conscious and sub-conscience than you are is the very definition of naive.

And you you won't admit that some of your choices are guided by conditioning you were never aware of.

 

[Meriweather]

And you you won't admit that some of your choices are guided by conditioning you were never aware of.

I am guessing you are talking about yourself. And I am guessing that you believe that what affected you affects everyone else the same way. How many brothers, sisters, cousins, friends did you have growing up? Because I am getting the impression you were an only child.