Zone1 Unbelievers cannot believe until God permits them to do so

[ding]

But that is not what is at issue. THings like perversion, stealing, adultery, murder -- which God gives everybody conscience to answer to

SO
"
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them "

My comment was only about Buck's assertion that God is to blame for not permitting some people to find him. Logic categorically rejects that notion and the parable of the prodigal son confirms that rejection. Anyone who has studied that parable in depth will easily see the father was patiently waiting for his son to make a move towards him and then the father comes rushing to him. That has been my own personal experience as well.

 

[ding]

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them "

I beleieve all of this takes care of itself naturally when one enters into a real - and most importantly an honest - relationship with God. It's a process; a progression.

1 Peter 1:3-11 with special emphasis on verses 5-8.

2 Peter, CHAPTER 1

Daily Bible Readings, Podcast Audio and Videos and Prayers brought to you by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

bible.usccb.org

 

[K9Buck]

Your belief that one cannot come to God unless God permits them to do so goes against the teaching of the parable of the prodigal son.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 11:25
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[K9Buck]

My comment was only about Buck's assertion that God is to blame for not permitting some people to find him.

I didn't use the word "blame" but I did provide God's word that people cannot follow Jesus unless granted permission by God to do so.

 

[1miseryindex]

You are conditioned by society

ha ha.. not hardly. You don't know me from the man in the moon anyway.

I don't let society condition me. Society is on its way to Hell.

 

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Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 11:25
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

So it's God's fault? I don't believe you are reading it right if your conclusion is that God decides who gets drawn to him.

 

[ding]

I didn't use the word "blame" but I did provide God's word that people cannot follow Jesus unless granted permission by God to do so.

Same difference. According to your logic, not everyone is drawn to God because God does not draw everyone to him. So you are literally arguing that it's God's fault.

 

[K9Buck]

So it's God's fault? I don't believe you are reading it right if your conclusion is that God decides who gets drawn to him.

I believe the scriptures that I shared are very clear. What is your interpretation?

 

[K9Buck]

Same difference. According to your logic, not everyone is drawn to God because God does not draw everyone to him. So you are literally arguing that it's God's fault.

It's God's sandbox; we're just in it. God decides who can believe and who cannot. I'm going off of what the scriptures say. Do you believe the scriptures?

Romans 9:14-18
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

[ding]

I believe the scriptures that I shared are very clear. What is your interpretation?

First of all you are mixing and matching verses without actually looking at the the context of each verse. Secondly it's just like I said, I would never interpret a verse that put God in a less than perfect light.

 

[ding]

It's God's sandbox; we're just in it. God decides who can believe and who cannot. I'm going off of what the scriptures say. Do you believe the scriptures?

Romans 9:14-18
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

And yet according to your interpretation there are those who were unable to have a relationship with God because God did not want them to have a relationship with him. Thereby missing out on all of the joy and happiness of a relationship with God while they were alive.

 

[K9Buck]

First of all you are mixing and matching verses without actually looking at the the context of each verse. Secondly it's just like I said, I would never interpret a verse that put God in a less than perfect light.

Perhaps it is you that is misunderstanding. Is that a possibility?

 

[K9Buck]

And yet according to your interpretation there are those who were unable to have a relationship with God because God did not want them to have a relationship with him.

I believe you misunderstand.

 

[ding]

Perhaps it is you that is misunderstanding. Is that a possibility?

Maybe. But it's the logical conclusion of that belief.

 

[ding]

I believe you misunderstand.

How so?

 

[K9Buck]

How so?

I believe that God not only permits many from being lost from him but insists upon it. However, he does not allow people to be lost forever. Wicked people will go to "Hell" but it's temporary and restorative. I believe that God forbids everybody from believing in and following Jesus in order that mankind's Earthly lesson can be complete. What is that lesson? I believe the lesson is that, without God, we are lost and suffer. Therefore (I believe), God blesses some with the faith in him and Jesus but not everybody - yet!

We are told in Revelation that Satan is bound for 1,000 years and then God orders his release. Why? Because if Satan is not released one final time, mankind's Earthly lesson will be incomplete.

At the end of the lesson ALL who ever lived will live with God in his kingdom, or so I believe.

 

[ding]

I believe that God not only permits many from being lost from him but insists upon it. However, he does not allow people to be lost forever. Wicked people will go to "Hell" but it's temporary and restorative. I believe that God forbids everybody from believing in and following Jesus in order that mankind's Earthly lesson can be complete. What is that lesson? I believe the lesson is that, without God, we are lost and suffer. Therefore (I believe), God blesses some with the faith in him and Jesus but not everybody - yet!

We are told in Revelation that Satan is bound for 1,000 years and then God orders his release. Why? Because if Satan is not released one final time, mankind's Earthly lesson will be incomplete.

At the end of the lesson ALL who ever lived will live with God in his kingdom, or so I believe.

That's great but unless he allows them to come to him, they won't, right?

 

[K9Buck]

That's great but unless he allows them to come to him, they won't, right?

According to Jesus, nobody can unless God the Father permits them to do so.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

 

[ding]

According to Jesus, nobody can unless God the Father permits them to do so.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

I got that from you already. So it must be God's fault when they don't.

 

[K9Buck]

I got that from you already. So it must be God's fault when they don't.

I think your issue is with God.