Truly supporting our troops

[Said1]

I thank you *so* much for you sympathy and for being a voice of reason in the midst of NAMGLA. It is a long time ago that I lost my son. The important parts never leave me, never change. Exactly what he thought about LBJ's sending troops to the DR I can't ever know. His letters, which I still treasure, talk mostly about the kinds of local things you would expect a 19-year-old from Maine to notice on a Caribbean island. I know that he didn't think he was an expert on foreign policy, he knew that the President was his commander and he trusted him rather the way he trusted his own dad. He loved his buddies and believed that America would always try to do the right thing and that while our leaders might not tell us everything, they would never deliberately lie to us. It is strangely comforting that he didn't live to see those beliefs betrayed.

I think that's as far as it usually goes for a lot of young, enlisted guys. Nothing wrong with it either. I'm proud of him for what he did and how he behaved. He didn't let down his side of the deal. And that's what's behind my arrogant ranting about SUPPORT THE TROOPS: I don't think Bush & Co. are supporting the troops either logistically or ideologically. They are using the troops and the love that we all feel for them to support their own ambitions. They over-ruled the CJCS Shinseki about troop levels and picked their way down the chain until they came to an ambitious pecker head (Franks) who would sign on to anything that gave him another star. They have covered their own asses on phony intelligence, lack of armor and prisoner torture while blaming everything on a handful of PFCs at Abu Ghraib, the CIA, the FBI, MI, even the Red Cross!

I am a vet, as you know, and I was a Navy officer, although more technically than in daily command. But the first thing they taught us was: OFFICERS ARE RESPONSIBLE. There used to be joke in the Army that the three duties of a lieutenant are 1) to go first; 2) to sign for things; 3) to get shot. I can't understand why people who lived in military culture don't see that the Abu Ghraib investigation is bogus. A handful of low level enlisted folks are going to be breaking rocks in Leavenworth but no sergeant, no lieutenant, no captain, no major. They busted the Brig. Gen. in charge even though their own report eventually cleared her of dereliction. Sanchez didn’t get that final star - ouch! He should be breaking rocks with the privates. That’s what we told the Japanese in the 1946 war crimes trials. What this administration is doing is not supporting the troops,it’s the same old CYA I can remember from my time. The old breed of officer would rather have been convicted of sanctioning the abuse than falsely claiming he didn’t have a clue.

Who are your comments directed at, specifically?

 

[mrsx]

My comments about my son were intended for one of the many people who have e-mailed me in support of my posts. I meant to send it back to him as an e-mail but I'm not too familiar with how to work the buttons on this BBS.

As for my criticism of the handling of the Abu Ghraib investigation, my comments are aimed specifically at the Commander-in-Chief, the Secretary of Defense and his Deputies and Assistants, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Secretary of the Army, and the Chief of CENTCOM and his Deputies and Assistants. Look, this is serious business. The abuse at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere in Iraq and Afghanistan is a shit stain on the honor of the U. S. military and has been a hearts-and-minds disaster for us in the Arab world. This much has been acknowledged even by the top brass. They promised a full, fair investigation. The only people charged in the military justice system have been enlisted personnel, I think all from the reserves.

Abu Ghraib is a major U.S. military installation in an occupied country rife with violence. From the investigation so far, you'd think it was a hippie commune. No duty rosters? No one supervising privates on duty? Visiting gentlemen in unmarked BDUs joining in the fun with no record of a sign-in? No kidding, we had tighter security than that in my maternity ward of the base hospital in S*** City! How can anyone who ever served in the military take this picture seriously?

Most people have figured out what happened. We have memos from Gonzales and Rumsfeld suspending SOP in prisoner interrogations. Spooks ("civilian contractors") were running the place and calling the shots. Pvt. England and her buddies are the sacrificial lambs. I suppose you could call this sorry mess SUPPORTING THE TROOPS - yeah, like the hanged man is supported by the executioner's rope!

DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY - one out of three ain't good enough!

I hope this has answered your question

 

[mrsx]

There are multiple problems with your analysis, Mrs. X.

First, you compare Iraq to Vietnam. It's a bad analogy. There is no "North Iraq" with a government that is fighting against the American invaders. The anti-US government has been deposed. Iraq has never been split up. Also, while there are lots of base camps around Iraq, there are also Iraqi police, National Guard troops, and regular troops who patrol their own country.

Second, the Iraqis know that we are not there forever, and that we are only there as long as it takes to establish a secure and stable Iraqi government. The Iraqis that see Americans as "the enemy" are the terrorist supporters, who are dying by the dozens daily and whose leadership is being targeted and taken out.

Third, you refer to Iraq as a "mistake." Nothing could be further from the truth. Not only had Saddam broken the 1991 cease fire and flaunted the UN resolutions designed to help the Iraqi people, but Saddam's replacement has given the Iraqis the ability to govern themsleves, and to show the rest of the Arab world that democracy is not only possible, but prefereable to dictatorships and Taliban-like juntas. I firmly believe that Bush made the right call by toppling Saddam.

I'd have to agree with you that Vietnam is a poor analogy with Iraq *geographically* and, following from that to some degree, tactically. The important parallels that I see are: lying our way in (Gulf of Tonkin = WMD) and so creating deep divisons on the home front, lack of overwhelming force to establish control of the territory, failure to formulate any exit strategy, leaving the iniative in the hands of our opponent, failure to understand the conflict from the natives' point of view, large-scale attacks on civilian population costing us "hearts and minds," and a mis-use of American military forces costing us blood, treasure, world influence and reputation.

As to whether there is a democracy in Iraq a year after the last U.S. soldier leaves - we may never live to see it. There isn't going to be a trial about whether we had the right to invade Iraq under the U.N. resolutions. You have your view (which I respect), I have mine. Unfortunately, the rest of the world also has its and the consensus is heavily against us. This isn't going to be helpful from here on out.

P.S. Thanks for presenting reasoned evidence against my opinion instead of calling names.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

My comments about my son were intended for one of the many people who have e-mailed me in support of my posts. I meant to send it back to him as an e-mail but I'm not too familiar with how to work the buttons on this BBS.

As for my criticism of the handling of the Abu Ghraib investigation, my comments are aimed specifically at the Commander-in-Chief, the Secretary of Defense and his Deputies and Assistants, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Secretary of the Army, and the Chief of CENTCOM and his Deputies and Assistants. Look, this is serious business. The abuse at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere in Iraq and Afghanistan is a shit stain on the honor of the U. S. military and has been a hearts-and-minds disaster for us in the Arab world. This much has been acknowledged even by the top brass. They promised a full, fair investigation. The only people charged in the military justice system have been enlisted personnel, I think all from the reserves.

Abu Ghraib is a major U.S. military installation in an occupied country rife with violence. From the investigation so far, you'd think it was a hippie commune. No duty rosters? No one supervising privates on duty? Visiting gentlemen in unmarked BDUs joining in the fun with no record of a sign-in? No kidding, we had tighter security than that in my maternity ward of the base hospital in S*** City! How can anyone who ever served in the military take this picture seriously?

Most people have figured out what happened. We have memos from Gonzales and Rumsfeld suspending SOP in prisoner interrogations. Spooks ("civilian contractors") were running the place and calling the shots. Pvt. England and her buddies are the sacrificial lambs. I suppose you could call this sorry mess SUPPORTING THE TROOPS - yeah, like the hanged man is supported by the executioner's rope!

DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY - one out of three ain't good enough!

I hope this has answered your question

Abu Graihb is not the blight on American Honor you portray it as. But you know that.
These were prisoner control tactics employed when guards are transferring prisoners which outnumber them.

Only people with who already possess a generally anti american viewpoint see Abu Graib as some huge deal.

 

[mrsx]

Personally, I'm inclined to agree with you about the relative significance of the Abu Ghraib scandal - certainly about the silly pictures of Pvt. England. What actually happened there is pretty small potatoes and no one got killed.

The political significance however was enormous. It gave our enemies a terrific talking point and scandalized our friends as well. Your honor is stained if your peers think it is. That's the way the code of honor works.

My issue with Abu Ghraib is that a handful of enlisted troopers are being blamed for what was in part a failure of command and in part a deliberate policy from the top to get rough in interrogations in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo and elsewhere. I'm not sure that policy was a bad or an illegal idea; but when fit hit the shan the politicos and top brass ducked and let the privates take the spear. THAT IS NOT SUPPORTING THE TROOPS. That's all.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Personally, I'm inclined to agree with you about the relative significance of the Abu Ghraib scandal - certainly about the silly pictures of Pvt. England. What actually happened there is pretty small potatoes and no one got killed.

The political significance however was enormous.

No it wasn't.

It gave our enemies a terrific talking point and scandalized our friends as well.

not really.

Your honor is stained if your peers think it is.

No it isn't.

That's the way the code of honor works.

No it isn't.

My issue with Abu Ghraib is that a handful of enlisted troopers are being blamed for what was in part a failure of command and in part a deliberate policy from the top to get rough in interrogations in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo and elsewhere. I'm not sure that policy was a bad or an illegal idea; but when fit hit the shan the politicos and top brass ducked and let the privates take the spear. THAT IS NOT SUPPORTING THE TROOPS. That's all.

You're a liberal aren't you, pretending to be conservative. Are you Wade's sister?

 

[dmp]

My issue with Abu Ghraib is that a handful of enlisted troopers are being blamed for what was in part a failure of command and in part a deliberate policy from the top to get rough in interrogations in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo and elsewhere. I'm not sure that policy was a bad or an illegal idea; but when fit hit the shan the politicos and top brass ducked and let the privates take the spear. THAT IS NOT SUPPORTING THE TROOPS. That's all.

Who forced them to lead another human being around by a leash? Who forced them or directed them to sexually-humiliate those men?

Stop it. Really.

 

[Trinity]

I came across this today, I had completly forgotten about it, I gave it to my dad, who framed it about 13 years ago! I recieved this article and bumper sticker from this man who was a customer of mine when I was tending bar! I thought it would be very fitting for this thread after I read it.


Warning it is very long..................................and yes I had to type this all in here scanner is not hooked up!







AMERICA LOVE IT - OR - LEAVE IT!

This is the story of the most popular bumper sticker in the world and the man originated it, Gene Kolodzik. As early as May of 1967, Mr. Kolodzik was passing out his 600 stickers to police and fireman in the downtown Cincinnati area.

Mr. Kolodzik is a special delivery mailman. He works two jobs, during the day, he delivers mail and at night he answers his own. Sometimes his own mail is more then he delivers. Working at his dining room table to all hours of the night, Mr. Kolodzik has mailed out over three million of his stickers. From the letters he has recieved another eleven million stickers have been printed by others throughout America. " I have no idea how many others have taken my slogan and printed it either on stickers or sighns." stated Mr. Kolodzik.

Gene Kolodzik never went to college, but he has been the invited guest lecturer at the Ohio College of Applied Science. He doesn't belong to any orginazation, but he has spoken before many.
Gene Kolodzik has never run for president, but his bumper sticker has been displayed on more cars than any presidential canidate. Frank Weikel, columnist for the Cincinnati Enquirer, has been the spearhead for promoting Gene Kolodzik and his timely bumper sticker throughout the greater cincinnati area. (A job well done Frank.)

Mr. Kolodzik's zeal to promote America was not a profitable venture. It was not meant to be a financial loss either, but it was. Gene sold his stickers at cost, many were given away with the request of a donation. What contributions that did come in were "farmed back" to buy more stickers. "I have made every penny of what I have earned here in this great country, and I thought it was about time that i gave something back to it, so I decided to stay with my bumper sticker campaign" declared Kolodzik. Mr Kolodzik is still paying off a few loans he had to make to meet the requests for his sticker. Many organizations requested as many as 60,000 stickers at a time.

"America Love It or Leave It" has become the battle cry of many patriotic groups such as the American Legion, D.V.A., V.F.W., and Jaycees. Every governor in America has recieved a personal letter from Gene Kolodzik. That's right! Each has recieved a free bumper sticker.



Not everyone agrees with the slogan, "America Love It or Leave It". The hippies on Calhoun Street printed their own version. "America Fix It or Forget It" (We prefer the first.)


Mr. Kolodzik has recieved many letters from servicemen in Vietnam. Some send pictures of his sticker on their tanks or displayed appropriately as only servicemen could dream up. One marine wrote "...Please send me more of those bumper stickers. All my co-workers want them and I've even been stopped on the street and asked where they may be purchased. It seems as though they say in six words just what guys like me are fighting for. You'd be surprised how many people still love America and are willing to fight and maybe die for it's basic principals."


Kolodzik's slogan has united more Americans together for a single cause than any other individual item known to this writer. His love of his country has not stopped at this one bumper sticker. He also sells flags and patriotic jewelry out of his home. Most, if not all, of the flag lapel pins that the Cincinnati banks, building and loans and other businesses are giving away came from Gene Kolodzik. Ed Foran, of the Southren Ohio National Bank, told me they purchased over 5000 small flag pins from Kolodzik and gave them out as a promotion. "We can't display the American flag enough," added Foran. "America is the greatest country in the world and we should be proud to wear it's flag. kolodzik has done more to promote patriotism in Cincinnati then anyone I know," Foran said.


Today, Kolodzik claims 101 patriotic items. Some of his items are his own design. His list ranges from patriotic jewelry of all kinds for both men and women to patriotic Christmas cards and gold seals used for mailing, illustrating an American eagle over the words "Let's Promote America". His goal is to supply boy scouts, clubs, organizations, schools, churches and even individuals with patriotic items they could sell for fund raising.


Gene kolodzik has done so much to promotepatriotism that it's the opinion of this writer that his story should be in reader's Digest and that he merits both the American Legion Award and the Valley Forge freedom Foundation Award.

Kolodzik has another bumper sticker out now reading "Our Number One Pollution......Communism". Let's show Mr. Koldzik that we are behind his works by either ordering some patriotic jewelry or sending him a contribution to help cover the cost of his stickers.

When you get to the point where you are asking yourself, "What can I do? I'm only one person!" Remember Gene Kolodzik working at his dining room table each night. He is only one, but he is applying himself to a cause.

A cause which is summed up in those famous six words "America Love It or Leave It". ( Gene Kolodzik the American Free Press salutes you.)

 

[mrsx]

Who forced them to lead another human being around by a leash? Who forced them or directed them to sexually-humiliate those men?

Stop it. Really.

I wonder if the leash is GI or if she brought it from home. According to testimony it was unidentified private contractors working for DOD in military intelligence who told them to "soften up" prisoners for interrogation. BTW, I'm not saying the pfc's are innocent or shouldn't be held responsible. It is simply inconceivable that these shennanigans could be going on inside a military facility by enlisted personnel and no officer charged with (at the least) dereliction of duty.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I wonder if the leash is GI or if she brought it from home. According to testimony it was unidentified private contractors working for DOD in military intelligence who told them to "soften up" prisoners for interrogation. BTW, I'm not saying the pfc's are innocent or shouldn't be held responsible. It is simply inconceivable that these shennanigans could be going on inside a military facility by enlisted personnel and no officer charged with (at the least) dereliction of duty.

No one cares.

 

[mrsx]

I agree that (almost) no one cares. How did they let things get this far? Recruiting quotas are only half filled and the sgts are lying and threatening to fill their body counts. Our military capability has been degraded and the armed forces are looking less and less like the home of patriotic heroes and more and more like the employer of last resort for poor kids looking for a way up the slippery economic ladder. Why doesn't Bush go on TV and appeal to Americans to join the crusade for freedom the way has in Latvia?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I agree that (almost) no one cares. How did they let things get this far? Recruiting quotas are only half filled and the sgts are lying and threatening to fill their body counts. Our military capability has been degraded and the armed forces are looking less and less like the home of patriotic heroes and more and more like the employer of last resort for poor kids looking for a way up the slippery economic ladder. Why doesn't Bush go on TV and appeal to Americans to join the crusade for freedom the way has in Latvia?

He did. It was called "election '04". Surely you've heard of it. I know, You dem types were too busy seeing how far you could wedge your collective heads up your collective heineys.

 

[5stringJeff]

It is simply inconceivable that these shennanigans could be going on inside a military facility by enlisted personnel and no officer charged with (at the least) dereliction of duty.

The BG, commander of the brigade, was busted down to COL and found guilty of dereliction of duty. Saw the link yesterday.

 

[CSM]

The BG, commander of the brigade, was busted down to COL and found guilty of dereliction of duty. Saw the link yesterday.

Some think it goes higher than that and wont be satisfied until the Commander in Chief is given a fair trial and then summarily executed.

The point those folks miss is that the chain of command in that particular unit is responsible for the atmosphere that permitted such occurences and also the fact that every officer and senior NCO in that unit on the ground there has a DUTY instill and maintain good order and discipline. Spooks or no spooks, those on the ground at that prison lost control of some very poorly disciplined and poorly trained troops.

 

[5stringJeff]

Some think it goes higher than that and wont be satisfied until the Commander in Chief is given a fair trial and then summarily executed.

The point those folks miss is that the chain of command in that particular unit is responsible for the atmosphere that permitted such occurences and also the fact that every officer and senior NCO in that unit on the ground there has a DUTY instill and maintain good order and discipline. Spooks or no spooks, those on the ground at that prison lost control of some very poorly disciplined and poorly trained troops.

I absolutely agree. The PL/PSG, CO/1SG, BN CDR/CSM all have a role in the loss of control, and should bear the punishment of their actions as well.

 

[mrsx]

He did. It was called "election '04". Surely you've heard of it. I know, You dem types were too busy seeing how far you could wedge your collective heads up your collective heineys.

50% of us did see what the Iraq FUBAR was doing to our military. The rest of you were too obsessed with gay marriage to see where our country was heading. Perhaps that explains the anal vulgarity in your remarks. In any event, America has no sympathy for losers and this Iraq war is a loser. These wonderful young people who are sacrificing everything from family time to life itself over there are going to be forgotten just as their brothers in arms in Mogadishu or the 203 (in think it was) Marines that Reagan wasted in Beruit are already forgotten. My son died in Santo Domingo. Remember that one? I didn't think so. Only the old vets of 82AB know we even went there. That is what is so very sad. I'm sorry to say that I am a little bitter about it. Support for World War Bush II is less than half of what it was at the beginning. After the politicians finish bullshitting us, we're going to pack up and go home. Then the country is going to blame the military they way they did after Viet Nam. It is very sad.

 

[Annie]

50% of us did see what the Iraq FUBAR was doing to our military. The rest of you were too obsessed with gay marriage to see where our country was heading. Perhaps that explains the anal vulgarity in your remarks. In any event, America has no sympathy for losers and this Iraq war is a loser. These wonderful young people who are sacrificing everything from family time to life itself over there are going to be forgotten just as their brothers in arms in Mogadishu or the 203 (in think it was) Marines that Reagan wasted in Beruit are already forgotten. My son died in Santo Domingo. Remember that one? I didn't think so. Only the old vets of 82AB know we even went there. That is what is so very sad. I'm sorry to say that I am a little bitter about it. Support for World War Bush II is less than half of what it was at the beginning. After the politicians finish bullshitting us, we're going to pack up and go home. Then the country is going to blame the military they way they did after Viet Nam. It is very sad.

I already dinged for your nonsense of supporting the troops. How you get from Iraq to Gay marriage is anyone's guess, in any case you are a twit. Sorry but is what is left.

 

[mrsx]

WASHINGTON, May 11 - The Army officer whose military intelligence unit was in charge of interrogations at the Abu Ghraib prison has been fined $8,000 and issued a written reprimand for dereliction of duty, but will not face criminal charges, two senior Pentagon officials said Wednesday.

The officer, Col. Thomas M. Pappas, commanded the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade at the prison in late 2003, when most of the abuses of detainees there were committed.

A high-level Army investigation last August found that military intelligence soldiers played a major role in directing and carrying out the abuses of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, undercutting the Pentagon's earlier contentions that a handful of renegade military police guards were largely to blame.

It is good to see that the Army is moving to an admission that the pfc did not act on their own. It still seems wrong that officers get fined and privates get hard time, but at least the truth about the "bad apples" slur on the troops is beginning to come out.

 

[dilloduck]

WASHINGTON, May 11 - The Army officer whose military intelligence unit was in charge of interrogations at the Abu Ghraib prison has been fined $8,000 and issued a written reprimand for dereliction of duty, but will not face criminal charges, two senior Pentagon officials said Wednesday.

The officer, Col. Thomas M. Pappas, commanded the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade at the prison in late 2003, when most of the abuses of detainees there were committed.

A high-level Army investigation last August found that military intelligence soldiers played a major role in directing and carrying out the abuses of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, undercutting the Pentagon's earlier contentions that a handful of renegade military police guards were largely to blame.

It is good to see that the Army is moving to an admission that the pfc did not act on their own. It still seems wrong that officers get fined and privates get hard time, but at least the truth about the "bad apples" slur on the troops is beginning to come out.

silly you---all your claims of cover ups and all-----give em some time oh impatient one. They keep proving you wrong.

 

[mrsx]

I already dinged for your nonsense of supporting the troops. How you get from Iraq to Gay marriage is anyone's guess, in any case you are a twit. Sorry but is what is left.

You can stop guessing, I'll dumb it down for you. One of your co-geniuses suggested that Bush's 2004 election campaign was in effect his recruiting pitch for the War on Terror and that we Dems. didn't notice because our heads were ... Oh well, you can just scroll back up to see the remark.

Accepting the premise about the campaign, I'd say that the cowadly sliming of Kerry's war record from the supporters of a candidate whose daddy got him jumped over 184 guys on the waiting list for a safe berth in the TANG wasn't much of call to the defence of freedom. The fact that the little doper went AWOL and got away with it because of his political connections might also be why Bush didn't have much to say about active duty service during the campaign.

As for being called a twit by the likes of you, it only hurts when I laugh.