Truly supporting our troops

[5stringJeff]

That's not what I think. It is impossible to cram my ideas into something as small as your brain without considerable distortion.

Wow... what happened to not name-calling?

Freedom has two very different meanings in the history of ideas. To most conservative religious people, "free" means "doing right" as in "you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free." That's what the pope thinks. It's what most Muslims believe. The other meaning of "free" is "hey! I'm out of jail!" This is the meaning of freedom in the Western liberal tradition of guys like Jefferson and Bush (although comparing Jefferson with Bush is like comparing lightning to a lightning bug). When Bush says "free" he means stuff like "free to dress as you wish," or "free to worship or not worship as you choose." Almost nobody in Iraq believes in this kind of freedom. When Liberals (and today's Republicans are the true Liberals in the English parliamentary sense) talk to Muslims or the Sha'as Party in Israel about freedom, they are having a dialogue of the deaf.

The "conservative religious" and "Western liberal" definitions of free are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. And again, I disagree that Iraqis don't long for freedom of expression and/or freedom of worship - especially the Iraqi Shiites who were oppressed under Saddam's Sunni-rule regime, but not to mention Christians and Jews in Iraq.

 

[mrsx]

LOL. On the elk.

Republicans aren't perfect, but their the most reasonable coalition WITH A CHANCE OF RULING. It's called pragmatism. Check into it.

Actually most of their ideas are stellar. Privatization of social security. Taking the war on terror to the terrorists. To name a couple.

It's you, isn't it wade? How do you feel about the space platform lazer defense shield idea?

Now you are making sense, although I don't agree with you. I think there is great hunger in America for what I could call "Eisenhower Republicanism." A McCain & Lieberman ticket would be an example. The Republican Party has a very distinguished heritage, being founded against slavery and having its first president be the man who is probably our greatest president ever. Their roots are in Free Soil, small business, common sense and Main Street America. They have a better handle on the things (both good and bad) that make America different from Europe than the Democrats.

Unfortunately, they have gone daffy off the deep end just a badly as the Democrats. I don't have to tell you what is wrong with the Dems, so I won't. The Republicans became the inheritors of America's racist past when LBJ signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act and Reagan declared his candidacy in Mississippi on a platform of "states' rights."

As the center of Republican power shifted to the South and West under Reagan and Bush, they lost touch with the small business man on Main Street and became the party of Wall Street and corporate America. To their power center in the segregationist white South they then added highly politicized fundamenalist Christians. These folks never had the traditional Republican concern for small government, checks-and-balances or freedom in the Liberal sense.

I sympathize with the sense of liberation and justification that first Reagan and then Gingrich brought to millions of Americans who felt that our heritage of personal liberty and lassiez faire self-betterment were being smothered under self-serving political correctness. But now they have been in power as long as the New Deal Democrats. They are stale, and with guys like Delay and Cheney, fully as self-serving and corrupt as anything the Dems. ever cooked up.

At my age, I have to feel that better times are coming; I can't imagine they are going to come from either the current Democrats or the current Republicans - old bums that have been conning us for a century. I'd think about McCain & Lieberman, but neither side is going to let something like that happen.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Now you are making sense, although I don't agree with you. I think there is great hunger in America for what I could call "Eisenhower Republicanism." A McCain & Lieberman ticket would be an example. The Republican Party has a very distinguished heritage, being founded against slavery and having its first president be the man who is probably our greatest president ever. Their roots are in Free Soil, small business, common sense and Main Street America. They have a better handle on the things (both good and bad) that make America different from Europe than the Democrats.

Unfortunately, they have gone daffy off the deep end just a badly as the Democrats. I don't have to tell you what is wrong with the Dems, so I won't. The Republicans became the inheritors of America's racist past when LBJ signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act and Reagan declared his candidacy in Mississippi on a platform of "states' rights."

As the center of Republican power shifted to the South and West under Reagan and Bush, they lost touch with the small business man on Main Street and became the party of Wall Street and corporate America. To their power center in the segregationist white South they then added highly politicized fundamenalist Christians. These folks never had the traditional Republican concern for small government, checks-and-balances or freedom in the Liberal sense.

I sympathize with the sense of liberation and justification that first Reagan and then Gingrich brought to millions of Americans who felt that our heritage of personal liberty and lassiez faire self-betterment were being smothered under self-serving political correctness. But now they have been in power as long as the New Deal Democrats. They are stale, and with guys like Delay and Cheney, fully as self-serving and corrupt as anything the Dems. ever cooked up.

At my age, I have to feel that better times are coming; I can't imagine they are going to come from either the current Democrats or the current Republicans - old bums that have been conning us for a century. I'd think about McCain & Lieberman, but neither side is going to let something like that happen.

Republicans are not inheritors of the racist past. This is a straw man. It's simply not true. Racism is the assertion that blacks need a handout and can't take care of themselves.

They are not stale. they may be self serving, but at least they have a better understanding of economics and foreign policy than the other contending party of wacked out socialists known as the democratic party.

I like lieberman better than mccain actually, even though hes a dem. He gets booed at democratic conventions, he must be a great guy.

 

[mrsx]

Wow... what happened to not name-calling?

You are right! I apologize. I never used to rage and foam this way until I joined this board and started getting called "vicious scum" etc. etc. I'll have to straighten out my crinolines and start acting like a lady.

The "conservative religious" and "Western liberal" definitions of free are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. And again, I disagree that Iraqis don't long for freedom of expression and/or freedom of worship - especially the Iraqi Shiites who were oppressed under Saddam's Sunni-rule regime, but not to mention Christians and Jews in Iraq.

They are harder to reconcile than you are letting on. In our own country, we can't reconcile abortion because one side sees it as a matter of "freedom from" (get your hands off my body!) while the other side sees it as a matter of "freedom to" (protect the rights of the unborn). Gay marriage has the same split depending on whether you come at it from the angle of individual freedom or freedom from evil and its consequences. We haven't reconciled this split here. Fundamentalists in the Arab world have no interest in even trying.

 

[mrsx]

Republicans are not inheritors of the racist past. This is a straw man. It's simply not true. Racism is the assertion that blacks need a handout and can't take care of themselves.

They are not stale. they may be self serving, but at least they have a better understanding of economics and foreign policy than the other contending party of wacked out socialists known as the democratic party.

I like lieberman better than mccain actually, even though hes a dem. He gets booed at democratic conventions, he must be a great guy.

Let's agree to disagree about racism. It's not really the focus of this thread. I thank you for hearing me out carefully and making the effort to treat the issues rationally and with courtesy. Perhaps you could rein in some of the Yahoos?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Let's agree to disagree about racism. It's not really the focus of this thread. I thank you for hearing me out carefully and making the effort to treat the issues rationally and with courtesy. Perhaps you could rein in some of the Yahoos?

You're welcome. Our yahoos are fiercely self determining and do not yield to authority easily. That's why they're so lovable!

 

[mrsx]

You're welcome. Our yahoos are fiercely self determining and do not yield to authority easily. That's why they're so lovable!

What are these morons thinking: (see below)
Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss.
...
After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004, where they were to hunt for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.

Immediately, the Army kept the soldiers on the ground quiet and told Tillman's family and the public that he was killed by enemy fire while storming a hill, barking orders to his fellow Rangers. After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened, that he had been killed by his own men.

How can the brass imagine that these sorts of shennanigans are going to help the image of our troops at home or abroad?

 

[GotZoom]

What are these morons thinking: (see below)
Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss.
...
After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004, where they were to hunt for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.

Immediately, the Army kept the soldiers on the ground quiet and told Tillman's family and the public that he was killed by enemy fire while storming a hill, barking orders to his fellow Rangers. After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened, that he had been killed by his own men.

How can the brass imagine that these sorts of shennanigans are going to help the image of our troops at home or abroad?

Here is something you and I will definitely agree upon.

It is an absolute shame and insult to his family, our heroic soldiers who did die in battle, and the American people.

There were so many other ways to honor this soldier, despite of the events around his death, that would have brought honor to his memory and the memory of other soldiers. His family would have still been proud.

Now they are angry. It served absolutely no purpose.

This was a sick propoganda ploy and the people behind it should be ashamed.

 

[5stringJeff]

Very true. Fratricide is bad enough - lying about it makes it worse.

 

[CSM]

What are these morons thinking: (see below)
Former NFL player Pat Tillman's family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss.
...
After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004, where they were to hunt for the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy as he got into position to defend them.

Immediately, the Army kept the soldiers on the ground quiet and told Tillman's family and the public that he was killed by enemy fire while storming a hill, barking orders to his fellow Rangers. After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened, that he had been killed by his own men.

How can the brass imagine that these sorts of shennanigans are going to help the image of our troops at home or abroad?

No question that the whole situation is just plain wrong. It often frustrates the heck out of me that the fratricide rate is currently the same as it was during WWII...then to lie about these circumstances on top of everything else just pisses me off. Somebody in the chain of command needs their butts kicked and how!

 

[mrsx]

Here is something you and I will definitely agree upon.

It is an absolute shame and insult to his family, our heroic soldiers who did die in battle, and the American people.

There were so many other ways to honor this soldier, despite of the events around his death, that would have brought honor to his memory and the memory of other soldiers. His family would have still been proud.

Now they are angry. It served absolutely no purpose.

This was a sick propoganda ploy and the people behind it should be ashamed.

I think we (all) agree that his sacrifice was noble and in the highest tradition of our nation. The guy gave up fame, millions etc. etc. for a tough, dirty and all-too-thankless job of defending his country. It wouldn't make any difference to me if he died by stepping on a rusty nail; it is the decisions he made that make him a hero, not the things he couldn't control.

It does seem sad that friedly fire deaths are still at WWII levels. Precision and communication are so much improved, but so is lethality. I think the military should do more to explain to the American people what makes a hero and why we honor *all* who served honorably instead of trying to twist reality into some PG 13 movie script. Perhaps a write-in campaign to Rumsfeld by honorably discharged vets would get some attention.

 

[GotZoom]

I think we (all) agree that his sacrifice was noble and in the highest tradition of our nation. The guy gave up fame, millions etc. etc. for a tough, dirty and all-too-thankless job of defending his country. It wouldn't make any difference to me if he died by stepping on a rusty nail; it is the decisions he made that make him a hero, not the things he couldn't control.

It does seem sad that friedly fire deaths are still at WWII levels. Precision and communication are so much improved, but so is lethality. I think the military should do more to explain to the American people what makes a hero and why we honor *all* who served honorably instead of trying to twist reality into some PG 13 movie script. Perhaps a write-in campaign to Rumsfeld by honorably discharged vets would get some attention.

Better yet - let's find out who authorized the cover-up and the lie and prosecute him/her to the fullest extent. If we are outraged by the supposed bad behaviour at Abu Grahib and punish those who followed orders, we certainly should feel even MORE outrage at this and follow the same course.

 

[mrsx]

Better yet - let's find out who authorized the cover-up and the lie and prosecute him/her to the fullest extent. If we are outraged by the supposed bad behaviour at Abu Grahib and punish those who followed orders, we certainly should feel even MORE outrage at this and follow the same course.

The "chicken hawks" of the Bush administration have wrapped themselves in the flag and crowed loudly about "supporting the troops." This has fooled a lot of people - including some vets - and blinded them to the actual treatment of the military by these politicians:
- closing PX and base schools
- stingy benefits for those on active duty
- dumping VA health services into Medicaide welfare
(and, of course, the mortal sins...)
-lying their way into Iraq
-inadequate training of forward-deployed personnel
-mis-use of Guard and Reserve soldiers
-inadequate body and vehicle armour
-no plan for winning the conflict or getting out of Iraq
-hiding our honored dead as if their remains were something shameful
-covering-up torture, murder and abuse
-sanctioning torture, murder and abuse
-ducking high-level responsibility for torture, murder and abuse by scape goating enlisted personnel for actions of higher ups
This is the most incompetent, most cynical political administration to lead our armed forces into battle in over a century. They have turned American Moms and Dads against their children's enlistment and they are undermining our nation's support for its soldiers. They are a disgrace to everyone who has ever worn the uniform.

 

[CSM]

The "chicken hawks" of the Bush administration have wrapped themselves in the flag and crowed loudly about "supporting the troops." This has fooled a lot of people - including some vets - and blinded them to the actual treatment of the military by these politicians:
- closing PX and base schools
- stingy benefits for those on active duty
- dumping VA health services into Medicaide welfare
(and, of course, the mortal sins...)
-lying their way into Iraq
-inadequate training of forward-deployed personnel
-mis-use of Guard and Reserve soldiers
-inadequate body and vehicle armour
-no plan for winning the conflict or getting out of Iraq
-hiding our honored dead as if their remains were something shameful
-covering-up torture, murder and abuse
-sanctioning torture, murder and abuse
-ducking high-level responsibility for torture, murder and abuse by scape goating enlisted personnel for actions of higher ups
This is the most incompetent, most cynical political administration to lead our armed forces into battle in over a century. They have turned American Moms and Dads against their children's enlistment and they are undermining our nation's support for its soldiers. They are a disgrace to everyone who has ever worn the uniform.

I should learn to ignore you....everything turns into a Bush-bash for you....

You are a troll of the worst sort.

 

[GotZoom]

The "chicken hawks" of the Bush administration have wrapped themselves in the flag and crowed loudly about "supporting the troops." This has fooled a lot of people - including some vets - and blinded them to the actual treatment of the military by these politicians:
- closing PX and base schools
- stingy benefits for those on active duty
- dumping VA health services into Medicaide welfare
(and, of course, the mortal sins...)
-lying their way into Iraq
-inadequate training of forward-deployed personnel
-mis-use of Guard and Reserve soldiers
-inadequate body and vehicle armour
-no plan for winning the conflict or getting out of Iraq
-hiding our honored dead as if their remains were something shameful
-covering-up torture, murder and abuse
-sanctioning torture, murder and abuse
-ducking high-level responsibility for torture, murder and abuse by scape goating enlisted personnel for actions of higher ups
This is the most incompetent, most cynical political administration to lead our armed forces into battle in over a century. They have turned American Moms and Dads against their children's enlistment and they are undermining our nation's support for its soldiers. They are a disgrace to everyone who has ever worn the uniform.

So much for the agreeing.

I actually sanction torture and abuse at the right time.

The rest of the list; well....

Base closings have happened for over 20 years.

Members of the military have never been paid what they should.

Veterans have never been treated the way they should.

We won't even discuss the subject of lying to get into Iraq - that has been beaten to death.

Training has always been issue during war-time. Sometimes you have to do the best you can with who/what you have - not a perfect solution but that is the way it is.

Mis-use of Guard and Reserve soldiers - not sure what you mean here unless it applies to the subject above.

Inadequate body and vehicle armour. Yes, I agree. A lot of what the soldiers have is inadequate.

No plan for winning the conflict or getting out of Iraq - I don't believe that for a minute. Despite what people may think, I refuse to believe our leaders sat around and said, "Well, this looks like a great plan. Now, how are we going to win and how long will it take?" "Oh, I don't know, let's just wing it and see."

Hiding our honored dead as if their remains were something shameful - I have address this before.

There are hundreds, I bet thousands of instances where things are working like they are supposed to; our soldiers and veterans are receiving the treatment they deserve, and even more "happy stories" about what we are doing over there.

But we won't see that in the press.

Happy endings don't make good news when you are anti-administration.

 

[mrsx]

I forgot my favorite: making amputee soldiers in army hospital re-hab pay for their meals. Cheer up boys, in just three years Hillary will be president, you'll be Clinton-bashing again and I'll be playing defence.

 

[GotZoom]

I forgot my favorite: making amputee soldiers in army hospital re-hab pay for their meals. Cheer up boys, in just three years Hillary will be president, you'll be Clinton-bashing again and I'll be playing defence.

And when people complained, something was done:

The Senate passed an amendment introduced by Illinois Democrat Barack Obama that will pay for them. It got added to an $82 billion emergency spending bill full of war money that President Bush is about to sign. The amendment applies to all military hospitals, not just Walter Reed.

The amendment is retroactive to January 1, 2005, so these troops should be expecting a refund.

 

[5stringJeff]

The "chicken hawks" of the Bush administration have wrapped themselves in the flag and crowed loudly about "supporting the troops." This has fooled a lot of people - including some vets - and blinded them to the actual treatment of the military by these politicians:
- closing PX and base schools
- stingy benefits for those on active duty
- dumping VA health services into Medicaide welfare
(and, of course, the mortal sins...)
-lying their way into Iraq
-inadequate training of forward-deployed personnel
-mis-use of Guard and Reserve soldiers
-inadequate body and vehicle armour
-no plan for winning the conflict or getting out of Iraq
-hiding our honored dead as if their remains were something shameful
-covering-up torture, murder and abuse
-sanctioning torture, murder and abuse
-ducking high-level responsibility for torture, murder and abuse by scape goating enlisted personnel for actions of higher ups
This is the most incompetent, most cynical political administration to lead our armed forces into battle in over a century. They have turned American Moms and Dads against their children's enlistment and they are undermining our nation's support for its soldiers. They are a disgrace to everyone who has ever worn the uniform.

Please allow me to rebut.
1. PXs and base schools in CONUS are usually unnecessary, as there are adequate school districts and shopping centers near most posts.
2. I'm not sure what you consider "stingy benefits." When I got out two years ago, I still had 100% free health/dental care, cheap life insurance, housing and food allowances, etc.
3. I didn't follow the VA benefit debate last year, but I've yet to hear any vets complain about a reduction in service.
4. Lying into Iraq... yawn.
5. Inadequate training and armor... for active units, not really. For some Guard and Reserve units, possibly, but then again, not to dis the NG/Reserve, but some of those units don't exactly train hard.
6. The plan to get out of Iraq is to train the Iraqi Army and establsh a stable government. That's been the plan all along.
7. Hiding the dead? You mean not showing pictures of remains returning to America? That's been a long standing policy.
8. Torture murder and abuse... yawn. The perpetrators of Abu Gharib are being punished. Is that what you call sanctioning?

 

[mrsx]

I should learn to ignore you....everything turns into a Bush-bash for you....

You are a troll of the worst sort.

Your name calling is forgiven. Your trying to ignore anything you disagree with is fine with me. After all, I didn't force you to post a response.

You bet I'm bashing Bush. Daddy's Litte War Criminal has lost the war in Iraq. That's right: it's gone. There ain't never gonna be no peaceful, stable, democratic, pro-America government in Baghdad. We've been beating that dead horse for two and a half years now and it is worse every week. If the little moron is as stubborn about pulling our soldiers out of the meat grinder in Iraq as he is about letting go of his sleazy plan to privatize Social Security, he'll take Jordan and Saudi Arabia down with him too. Don't think I'm happy about this: I have to fill up my car same as the red-white-and-blue necks. Peace, y'all.

 

[GotZoom]

Your name calling is forgiven.
Daddy's Litte War Criminal
the little moron
red-white-and-blue necks.

Kind of calling the kettle black isn't it?