Top Priorities

[DiamondDave]

This is just like Dancer getting bitch slapped in the military forum when trying to portray blogs as fact and her feelings on the military as fact as well... and even trying to argue with the vets who have intensive knowledge on the subject and first hand experience in the types of actions in question

 

[DiamondDave]

BTW... your little activist author buddy also did not cite any facts.. he made up shit, much like you do Dancer

Unemployment Rate in Iraq is sub 16% (as of Feb 19, 2010).... and for being a country that is much less developed than the western world, that ain't too bad

Iraq Unemployment rate - Economy

Your source is discredited

 

[Sky Dancer]

Then

Under Saddam Hussein, the Iraqis had basic public order — garbage was picked up, trains ran, oil was pumped — but that order was enforced by the dictator's secret police. His sons were notorious sexual predators. Political dissenters were tortured, killed or forced into exile. Poverty was common while Saddam built palaces. He started two wars in a decade, against Iran and Kuwait, that killed hundreds of thousands and — along with U.N. sanctions — eroded Iraqis' standard of living.

Now

Iraqis have suffered since the U.S. invasion — often at each other's hands in cycles of sectarian revenge. Estimates of the civilian death toll vary wildly, from 100,000 to 1 million. About 1.7 million more are refugees abroad. Killings have risen again recently but sit far below the peak in 2006, when the United Nations estimated 100 people a day were dying. Iraqi forces — still backed by U.S. troops — are in charge of public order, and most of the concrete walls that once laced Baghdad are gone.

GOVERNMENT
Then

Saddam and his Baath Party, dominated by his ethnic group, the Sunni Arabs, had an iron grip on government. Iraq's two other main ethnic groups — the Shiites, who are Iraq's majority, and the Kurds, from the nation's northern mountains — were shut out of political life. Fear of Saddam kept them in line. The three main groups had never cooperated in a government.

Now

Iraq's constitution proclaims it an Islamic democracy in parliamentary form, though what that means in practice isn't yet clear. The newly minted political parties are based on ethnic lines; Shiites, though the majority, have divided their political loyalties. Several elections have been held successfully, the most recent in March. No party, however, has won a majority, and five months of negotiations aimed at forming a governing coalition have broken down. Privately, Iraq's national politicians — a narrow elite made up mostly of former Saddam opponents who spent his rule in exile — lament their lack of unity and say they fear a coup attempt more than the insurgency.

ECONOMY

Then

Iraq's economy was overwhelmingly based on oil — the world's third-largest proven reserves. But the Iran-Iraq war, the 1991 Persian Gulf War, mismanagement and U.N. sanctions tattered its oil infrastructure. Production had shrunk from 3.5 million barrels a day a decade earlier to 2.6 million, by U.S. estimates. The big economic growth of the late 1990s, thanks to high world oil prices, had flattened. Inflation was around 25 percent and unemployment was high. Debt to foreign creditors was a burden, perhaps $200 billion.

Now

The end of sanctions and Saddam means Iraqis who have survived the war can buy foreign goods again — if they have the money. Satellite TV dishes have sprouted on residences, shops have reopened and people go out in public again. Oil production has recovered to 2.3 million barrels a day, and experts say the countryside might be one of the last spots on Earth with large oil deposits waiting to be found. Unemployment remains high. After last week's bombing of an army recruiting center in Baghdad, for example, dazed survivors scrambled back into line, still clutching job applications. Electricity production has gone from 3,958 megawatts before the war to 6,202.

SOURCES: U.S. State and Defense Departments, Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction, United Nations, World-Herald press services

 

[Foxfyre]

This is just like Dancer getting bitch slapped in the military forum when trying to portray blogs as fact and her feelings on the military as fact as well... and even trying to argue with the vets who have intensive knowledge on the subject and first hand experience in the types of actions in question

Oh give them a break Dave. Those who can't articulate their own argument in a rational way and who can't find anything to support it in a legitimate source HAVE to go to highly partisan leftwing blogs and websites intended to present the liberal perspective, however dishonestly, in order to be able to participate here at all.

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT consigning all our more liberal brethren to that group. Several are very capable of articulating a defense for their point of view and more than a few here keep me on my toes bigtime. I enjoy them enormously.

 

[DiamondDave]

Then

Under Saddam Hussein, the Iraqis had basic public order — garbage was picked up, trains ran, oil was pumped — but that order was enforced by the dictator's secret police. His sons were notorious sexual predators. Political dissenters were tortured, killed or forced into exile. Poverty was common while Saddam built palaces. He started two wars in a decade, against Iran and Kuwait, that killed hundreds of thousands and — along with U.N. sanctions — eroded Iraqis' standard of living.

Now

Iraqis have suffered since the U.S. invasion — often at each other's hands in cycles of sectarian revenge. Estimates of the civilian death toll vary wildly, from 100,000 to 1 million. About 1.7 million more are refugees abroad. Killings have risen again recently but sit far below the peak in 2006, when the United Nations estimated 100 people a day were dying. Iraqi forces — still backed by U.S. troops — are in charge of public order, and most of the concrete walls that once laced Baghdad are gone.

GOVERNMENT
Then

Saddam and his Baath Party, dominated by his ethnic group, the Sunni Arabs, had an iron grip on government. Iraq's two other main ethnic groups — the Shiites, who are Iraq's majority, and the Kurds, from the nation's northern mountains — were shut out of political life. Fear of Saddam kept them in line. The three main groups had never cooperated in a government.

Now

Iraq's constitution proclaims it an Islamic democracy in parliamentary form, though what that means in practice isn't yet clear. The newly minted political parties are based on ethnic lines; Shiites, though the majority, have divided their political loyalties. Several elections have been held successfully, the most recent in March. No party, however, has won a majority, and five months of negotiations aimed at forming a governing coalition have broken down. Privately, Iraq's national politicians — a narrow elite made up mostly of former Saddam opponents who spent his rule in exile — lament their lack of unity and say they fear a coup attempt more than the insurgency.

ECONOMY

Then

Iraq's economy was overwhelmingly based on oil — the world's third-largest proven reserves. But the Iran-Iraq war, the 1991 Persian Gulf War, mismanagement and U.N. sanctions tattered its oil infrastructure. Production had shrunk from 3.5 million barrels a day a decade earlier to 2.6 million, by U.S. estimates. The big economic growth of the late 1990s, thanks to high world oil prices, had flattened. Inflation was around 25 percent and unemployment was high. Debt to foreign creditors was a burden, perhaps $200 billion.

Now

The end of sanctions and Saddam means Iraqis who have survived the war can buy foreign goods again — if they have the money. Satellite TV dishes have sprouted on residences, shops have reopened and people go out in public again. Oil production has recovered to 2.3 million barrels a day, and experts say the countryside might be one of the last spots on Earth with large oil deposits waiting to be found. Unemployment remains high. After last week's bombing of an army recruiting center in Baghdad, for example, dazed survivors scrambled back into line, still clutching job applications. Electricity production has gone from 3,958 megawatts before the war to 6,202.

SOURCES: U.S. State and Defense Departments, Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction, United Nations, World-Herald press services

And another article by an author drawing personal conclusions... no links to actual statistics or numbers that are supposedly drawn from legit sources...

Iraq then and now - Omaha.com

Try and link your cut and pastes

I give you cold hard data.. you give articles.. typical blinded left winger

 

[DiamondDave]

Some people just don't know when to stay down

 

[DiamondDave]

Iraq war seen as failure by 53% of Americans
Poll: Majority say history will deem Iraq war a failure - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

Blog and opinion poll

Again.. I give facts.. you give feelings and opinion

Stay down, bitch

 

[Sky Dancer]

Iraq war seen as failure by 53% of Americans. 55% say Iraq war was a mistake.
Poll: Majority say history will deem Iraq war a failure - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Let's imagine that the GOP sweeps the House races this autumn. Do you suppose their "top priority" will be job creation, or subpoena power?

They should just hand the whole US over to the corporations to control and be done with it. I don't understand why they need an "agenda". It is not hard to see perfectly what they desire.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Iraq war seen as failure by 53% of Americans
Poll: Majority say history will deem Iraq war a failure - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

Blog and opinion poll

Again.. I give facts.. you give feelings and opinion

Stay down, bitch

If your facts and argument were so strong you wouldn't have to rely on ad hominem.

 

[DiamondDave]

Let's imagine that the GOP sweeps the House races this autumn. Do you suppose their "top priority" will be job creation, or subpoena power?

They should just hand the whole US over to the corporations to control and be done with it. I don't understand why they need an "agenda". It is not hard to see perfectly what they desire.

Yeah

That's what is being called for

You are such a partisan nitwit

 

[Kat]

Iraq war seen as failure by 53% of Americans. 55% say Iraq war was a mistake.
Poll: Majority say history will deem Iraq war a failure - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

None of your links are proof that Iraqi people are not better off without Saddam. *shrug*

 

[asterism]

while i think afghanistan impacted al qaeda, i think our work in iraq destabilized one of the most stable, secular countries in the region. i think this was the intent, but i dont think that intent serves a counter-terror objective at all. quite the opposite.

That's a valid perspective, I just think it's wrong. We'll never really know now since Al Qaeda lost. Saddam lost and the system he was using to collude with France and Russia to undermine the UN Security Council ended. I disagree that Saddam's Iraq was one of the most stable countries of the region (secular or not) and I question any of the media reports stating otherwise since Saddam controlled the press (CNN's Eason Jordan admit's his role).

its not a matter of the press, it is about the fact israel and iraq were the only secular nations in the region, and that there weren't weekly bombings in iraq or an al qaeda presence there, and now there is.

Looks like you moved the goalposts. First you said that the US destabilized one of the most stable secular countries, and second you said that there were only two to choose from. Strange.

It is a matter of the press because while you may think violence increased, it actually didn't. Saddam's Republican Guard and Uday's personal hit squad did not need to do roadside and community bombings. They were able to seize anyone and everyone they wanted. Some were killed on sight, some were lured away and then executed, and in a few cases entire villages were wiped out. Nobody knew about it at the time because there was no free press and the limited number of journalists that actually did find these facts didn't report it.

Al Qaeda in Iraq predates the US invasion. It's where Zarqawi relocated after the US invaded Afghanistan and Al Qaeda affiliate Ansar al-Islam operated freely there.

my point is that i believe that creating this chaos was our objective there, and in terms of winning and losing, we have achieved that now at ours, our allies and the region's expense.

What would be the purpose of creating chaos in Iraq?

it is the bs about anti-terror that i dont buy, and while al qaeda is not a regional paramilitary force anymore, they remain an international terrorist force, among many others.

With severely reduced capabilities compared to 10 years ago.

this has been spurred on by our involvement and our role of a destabilizer/disruptor, rather than the nation building that some on here are so convinced has happened. people have testified to the net result of our media's reporting right here on this thread, and i dont see it as having any different effect than saddam's propaganda.

That's only accurate if you believe that groups like Al Qaeda weren't serious threats to our security before 9/11. Notice how no matter what the US has done, these terrorist groups want to attack us. Iraq, Afghanistan, support for Israel, defending Saudi Arabia, etc.

 

[DiamondDave]

Iraq war seen as failure by 53% of Americans
Poll: Majority say history will deem Iraq war a failure - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

Blog and opinion poll

Again.. I give facts.. you give feelings and opinion

Stay down, bitch

If your facts and argument were so strong you wouldn't have to rely on ad hominem.

Pardon me.. I posted ACTUAL data... from legit sources...

You quote blogs, opinion pieces, activist authors, and opinion polls...

'nuff said.... you lose.. thanks for playing... please see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

 

[Sky Dancer]

Blog and opinion poll

Again.. I give facts.. you give feelings and opinion

Stay down, bitch

If your facts and argument were so strong you wouldn't have to rely on ad hominem.

Pardon me.. I posted ACTUAL data... from legit sources...

You quote blogs, opinion pieces, activist authors, and opinion polls...

'nuff said.... you lose.. thanks for playing... please see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

If your arguments were so strong you wouldn't have to rely on name calling and personal attack.

 

[DiamondDave]

If your facts and argument were so strong you wouldn't have to rely on ad hominem.

Pardon me.. I posted ACTUAL data... from legit sources...

You quote blogs, opinion pieces, activist authors, and opinion polls...

'nuff said.... you lose.. thanks for playing... please see Don Pardo for some lovely parting gifts

Do you understand what ad hominem is? Aparently not.

Do you understand the difference between feeling and opinion, and fact?? I guess not

I discredited your assertions.. and your sources... then called you out on it...

 

[Sky Dancer]

If your arguments were so strong it would not be necessary for you to name call.

I'm a dove on the war. I agree with 55% percent of Americans that the war in Iraq was a mistake, and with 53% American who believe it will be judged a failure by history.

We have not achieved peace in Iraq. We are leaving a mess behind.
http://www.todayonline.com/World/EDC100826-0000186/The-mess-they-leave-behind

 

[DiamondDave]

If your arguments were so strong it would not be necessary for you to name call.

My arguments were and are strong.... yours were nothing more than trying to present feeling and opinion as fact...

You were discredited, as well as your sources....


I will call out a manipulator, a liar, and one stating their feeling as fact... which you have done specifically in 2 days in 2 threads that I have participated in...

And it is pretty fun exposing people like you... it's just you're pretty stubborn... you seem to have an aversion to admitting when you are caught

 

[asterism]

Iraq will be judged a failure by history.

If so, it STILL doesn't mean they are not better off without Saddam.

The world may be better off without Saddam according to Cheney, (who has zero credility) but the average Iraqi's life was better when they had a stable country, however terrible the dictator. Saddam kept the sectarian factions in line.

I'm a dove anyway. I'd rather see the US military involved in humanitarian efforts like helping the flood victims in Pakistan and creating good will than killing people and occupying their countries.

Iraq was NOT stable, the average Iraqi lived and died at the whim of Saddam and his henchmen. An entire village was wiped out in response to a single incident where one shot was fired at his motorcade.

Tens of thousands of innocent civilians hundreds of miles away from any skirmish or uprising were slaughtered as a result of his response to that uprising. Entire towns were literally leveled to send a message, "Don't fight us the way these other people did." You call that stable?

 

[asterism]

Iraq has between 25 and 50 percent unemployment, a dysfunctional parliament, rampant disease, an epidemic of mental illness, and sprawling slums. The killing of innocent people has become part of daily life. What a havoc the United States has wreaked in Iraq.

What was the unemployment rate in 2002? All of those other indications were worse under Saddam, there just wasn't any reporting of it since Saddam controlled the press.