They shoot children, don't they?

[Zhukov]

My point is, the Jews have no proof they ever held the land. To have such proof, they have to be able to say, at the very least, "my relative so-and-so lived right here". They cannot do this. The claim is invalid in every legal respect!

What about Roman taxation and historical records? For a few centuries the jews enjoyed a certain autonomy under Roman law, and considering they clearly didn't migrate into Judea during Roman occupation, they were there beforehand. Which puts us around 200 BC, or about 700 years before Mohammed and his merry men began to raise hell.

Of course they were there before the Romans arrived, and there are probably ancient Persian records detailing a jewish land there back several centuries more.

Palestinian, on the other hand, is a concoted term that refers to a occupation area drawn by the British.

 

[dilloduck]

Right - it's a clear case of "bullies attack a newbie country, taking some of their land. Newbie country kicks them out of their land, and takes a bit MORE than they had to begin with. Bullies start boo-hoo'ing and strapping bombs to children and women abord newbie-country busses. And there are SOME people who agree with that practice..."

OK well lets talk reality here----The Jews own Israel because they have a better army than anyone in the region. The UN ( the same one that calls the Iraqi War ILLEGAL ) gave them an inch and the arabs gave them "reason" to take a mile. That's why they have it now and with continued financial support from American citizens and private jews throughout the world they will keep it. Let's quit pretending they have it because GOD said so !

 

[wade]

well the jews have learned to live by the rules of every society they went to and done so quite well . The arabs stayed in one place and became ethnocentric and intolerant. So that's why I choose the jews.

Ummm... you are showing your ignorance of history again.

The Zionist movement started back in the mid 1800's. When they first started moving to Palastine, in the years prior to WWII, they were welcomed by the arabs who lived there! They started purchasing land and living in the communities and they were still welcomed. It was not until they started talking about forming a Jewish state in the "holy land" of palastine, that the Arabs stopped being quite so accepting. After WWII the Zionist movement got major backing from the USA, espeically US Jews. The British were resistant to the Zionist requests that they create and acknowlege a Jewish state in Palastine. The Zionists responded with terrorism, as shown previously, at first directed mostly against the British but then after the British decided to pull out it was directed against the indiginous Arab population.

Prior to the Zionist terrorist attacks on Arabs and the creation of Israel, there was no history of hatred between Jews and Arabs. Jews made up a significant (but small) population in almost every Arab nation, where they'd lived in peace for thousands of years.

Wade.

 

[wade]

OK well lets talk reality here----The Jews own Israel because they have a better army than anyone in the region. The UN ( the same one that calls the Iraqi War ILLEGAL ) gave them an inch and the arabs gave them "reason" to take a mile. That's why they have it now and with continued financial support from American citizens and private jews throughout the world they will keep it. Let's quit pretending they have it because GOD said so !

They pretend they have a right to it because GOD said so. It is the basis of their claims. US support of Israel makes US stated doctrine concerning boundary changes by force a complete sham.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

They pretend they have a right to it because GOD said so. It is the basis of their claims. US support of Israel makes US stated doctrine concerning boundary changes by force a complete sham.

Wade.

If that doesn't work, the next argument is that they were there first--then comes the UN--then comes the arab attacks blah blah blah---always the same. Now it is simply "we do what we have to do in order to defend themselves". Americans can relate to that one now !

 

[wade]

What about Roman taxation and historical records? For a few centuries the jews enjoyed a certain autonomy under Roman law, and considering they clearly didn't migrate into Judea during Roman occupation, they were there beforehand. Which puts us around 200 BC, or about 700 years before Mohammed and his merry men began to raise hell.

Of course they were there before the Romans arrived, and there are probably ancient Persian records detailing a jewish land there back several centuries more.

Palestinian, on the other hand, is a concoted term that refers to a occupation area drawn by the British.

Palastine is the term used by the British to define the geographical region we are discussing. Please lets not complicated the discussion with symantics.

Yes, I do not dispute that Jews were in the region dating back to well before Christ. But so were "Arabs". As I said before, I'm pretty sure that modern day Arabs consist largely of other members of the tribe which Abraham lead into the region. Remember, to be a real Jew, you have to be able to trace your lineage back through an unbroken line of women to Abraham. Surely Abraham was not the only adult male in his tribe. What happend to the rest? Those are the Arabs! The Jews and Arabs are Brothers!

But that is not the point I was making. A claim to stolen anscetrial lands requires at least:

1) you can identify exactly what plot of land was "stolen" from exactly what anscetor, and can prove this.

2) you can prove that the lands were stolen, not sold or abandon.

The Zionists can do neither of these. But even if they could, I have serious reservations about any recognition of such claims going back so far. Lets say there was a plot of land owned by a Jew back in the year 2500 BC, that was "stolen" from him by the Egyptians. Lets say that by some means the descendants of that Jew could be determined. There would likely be thousands of them, all with a claim on a few acres of land.

So what it comes down to is FORCE. The Zionists have used force to steal the land from the Arabs, and the Arabs have chosen not to accept this and are using force to try to take it back. Because the Zionists are backed by the USA, and thus have an overwhelming direct force advantage, the Arabs have chosen to use the same tactic the Zionists used against the British when faced with the same problem - TERRORISM!

Wade.

 

[wade]

If that doesn't work, the next argument is that they were there first--then comes the UN--then comes the arab attacks blah blah blah---always the same. Now it is simply "we do what we have to do in order to defend themselves". Americans can relate to that one now !

Well, my orginal point was that the Zionists should not have been appeased. They should not have been allowed to steal the Arab lands in palastine and delcare a new state there. They should either have had to buy the land, or they should have established the State of Israel in another place.

What they have in effect done is become the new Natzi's, throwing away the concepts of right and wrong because it suits their interests, and oppressing a peoples to achieve their own goals.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

Well, my orginal point was that the Zionists should not have been appeased. They should not have been allowed to steal the Arab lands in palastine and delcare a new state there. They should either have had to buy the land, or they should have established the State of Israel in another place.

What they have in effect done is become the new Natzi's, throwing away the concepts of right and wrong because it suits their interests, and oppressing a peoples to achieve their own goals.

Wade.

Agreed but it's a bit too late now isn't it? The US cannot or will not detatch it self from Israel now for MANY reasons.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Ummm... you are showing your ignorance of history again.

The Zionist movement started back in the mid 1800's. When they first started moving to Palastine, in the years prior to WWII, they were welcomed by the arabs who lived there! They started purchasing land and living in the communities and they were still welcomed. It was not until they started talking about forming a Jewish state in the "holy land" of palastine, that the Arabs stopped being quite so accepting. After WWII the Zionist movement got major backing from the USA, espeically US Jews. The British were resistant to the Zionist requests that they create and acknowlege a Jewish state in Palastine. The Zionists responded with terrorism, as shown previously, at first directed mostly against the British but then after the British decided to pull out it was directed against the indiginous Arab population.

Prior to the Zionist terrorist attacks on Arabs and the creation of Israel, there was no history of hatred between Jews and Arabs. Jews made up a significant (but small) population in almost every Arab nation, where they'd lived in peace for thousands of years.

Wade.

My arguments are not based on history, except for the broad assertion that jews have succeeded by the laws of societies they live within.

When I think about which group of people I wish to succeed in that area, I choose the jews, because arab culture is f'ed. It's totally intolerant and based on islamic tyranny. So I don't know which historical point you think I got wrong, considering I made no reference to anything historical.

 

[Zhukov]

Yes, I do not dispute that Jews were in the region dating back to well before Christ. But so were "Arabs". As I said before, I'm pretty sure that modern day Arabs consist largely of other members of the tribe which Abraham lead into the region. Remember, to be a real Jew, you have to be able to trace your lineage back through an unbroken line of women to Abraham. Surely Abraham was not the only adult male in his tribe. What happend to the rest? Those are the Arabs! The Jews and Arabs are Brothers!

But that is not the point I was making. A claim to stolen anscetrial lands requires at least:

1) you can identify exactly what plot of land was "stolen" from exactly what anscetor, and can prove this.

2) you can prove that the lands were stolen, not sold or abandon.

The Zionists can do neither of these. But even if they could...

I actually believe there are a precious few families of jews who have lived there continuously for the past 2000 years or so in an unbroken line, but I'm not really interested in who 'stole' what from who. All land owned today was 'stolen' from some earlier inhabitant who was either driven off, marginalized, or killed.

I just thought you were saying you didn't believe jewish occupation of present-day Israel predated the occupation of that land by the palestinians.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Well, my orginal point was that the Zionists should not have been appeased. They should not have been allowed to steal the Arab lands in palastine and delcare a new state there. They should either have had to buy the land, or they should have established the State of Israel in another place.

What they have in effect done is become the new Natzi's, throwing away the concepts of right and wrong because it suits their interests, and oppressing a peoples to achieve their own goals.

Wade.

Even if the jews pull out, osama bin laden will still hate america. It's still an intolerant, bigoted backward culture, incompatible with the modern world. Since the lead tyrants know this, they have been prepping a generation of their young to die to defend their regimes, by state controlled media and preaching hatred and backwardness. The WOT is not about eliminating muslims; they're welcome to change their culture so it's a little more friendly to people who are SLIGHTLY different. Get a clue.

 

[wade]

That therefore makes the jews the first group of people there who are still extant, and therefore, logically, they were there before the so-called palestinians.

No, the Arabs were there from the same point in history as the Jews. They were in fact the same peoples at the time, all followers of the laws of God provided though Moses, who lead them all to the promised land.

The difference is that the Jews abandoned the land when the going got tough, the Arabs chose to stay.

Wade.

 

[dmp]

No, the Arabs were there from the same point in history as the Jews. They were in fact the same peoples at the time, all followers of the laws of God provided though Moses, who lead them all to the promised land.

The difference is that the Jews abandoned the land when the going got tough, the Arabs chose to stay.

Wade.

History

In the second century A.D. the Romans killed half a million Jews, and hundreds of thousands more were sold into slavery. The Romans renamed Israel as "Syria Palestine." Jews living there became known as Palestinians until the second half of the 20th century.

During World War II, the British army had a Palestinian Brigade made up entirely of Jewish volunteers. The Palestinian culture was Jewish, the language was Hebrew, the schools were all Jewish, the Palestinian Symphony Orchestra was all Jewish, and the Palestine Post was a Jewish newspaper.

In 1948, Arabs who had fled from Israel in accordance with calls from Arab nations attacking Israel that "all Arabs get out," began to claim they were the true Palestinians and that the land of Israel had always belonged to them. The liberal-left press to this day eagerly promotes that lie, but yet in 1948 Arabs owned a mere 3 percent of so-called Palestine.

Israel’s claim to the land goes back 4,000 years to the purchase Abraham made in Hebron. For 3,000 years Jerusalem was the capital of Israel, and the 35-acre Temple Mount, currently in the center of the dispute, was purchased by King David from Ornan the Jebusite.

It was the site of the first and the second Jewish temples. Those who call themselves Palestinians today do not have their own language and culture. They are all Arabs by birth, language and culture, and are close relatives to Arabs in surrounding countries from where most of them came, attracted by Israel’s prosperity.

The fact is that Israelis are not the criminals, but Yasser

more

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/palestinians.html#rethep

 

[wade]

I actually believe there are a precious few families of jews who have lived there continuously for the past 2000 years or so in an unbroken line, but I'm not really interested in who 'stole' what from who. All land owned today was 'stolen' from some earlier inhabitant who was either driven off, marginalized, or killed.

I just thought you were saying you didn't believe jewish occupation of present-day Israel predated the occupation of that land by the palestinians.

Exactly, but the USA's post-WWII policy specifically opposes such invasions for the purpose of aquiring land. Only in the case of Israel have we not held to this principal.

Again, I think both jews and arabs occupied the land, side by side, back in the pre-roman period. I'm not sure of the years, but certainly it pre-dates the Egyptians, who enslaved the Jews (and others) to build the pyramids. The point is that through that period and through the Roman occupation of the region, the Jews chose to leave for other more fruitful places. Some stayed but relatively few.

In the end, I think the whole "God gave us this land" argument is pure crap. And I think you agree with this don't you Zhukov?

Wade.

 

[dmp]

Exactly, but the USA's post-WWII policy specifically opposes such invasions for the purpose of aquiring land. Only in the case of Israel have we not held to this principal.

When since ww2, has Israel aquired land which wasn't the result of them defending themselves?

 

[wade]

History

LOL - nice self-serving Zionist recollection of history you found there.

Frist off, the Romans enslaved and killed lots of people, the Jews were no special case of Roman persecution.

The argument that all the schools and other aspects of organized society in the region were Jewish is pure crap. That is Zionist revisionist history. They must define a school as being run by Jews. It is true that Zionists had been immigrating to the region for about 20 years by that point, but they were still not the dominant population in the region. They brought with them aspects of European culture, such as Orchestras, but that does not make them the rightful owners of the land by a far stretch.

"In 1948, Arabs who had fled from Israel in accordance with calls from Arab nations attacking Israel that "all Arabs get out," .."

And I suppose the fact that Zionist death squads were butchering whole communities of Arabs had nothing to do with their fleeing?

Are you denying the genocidal war of the Jews against the Ketemites?

Wade.

 

[dmp]

LOL - nice self-serving Zionist recollection of history you found there.

Frist off, the Romans enslaved and killed lots of people, the Jews were no special case of Roman persecution.

The argument that all the schools and other aspects of organized society in the region were Jewish is pure crap. That is Zionist revisionist history. They must define a school as being run by Jews. It is true that Zionists had been immigrating to the region for about 20 years by that point, but they were still not the dominant population in the region. They brought with them aspects of European culture, such as Orchestras, but that does not make them the rightful owners of the land by a far stretch.



And I suppose the fact that Zionist death squads were butchering whole communities of Arabs had nothing to do with their fleeing?

Are you denying the genocidal war of the Jews against the Ketemites?

Wade.

see my previous post. Israel acts in defense of it's nation.

 

[wade]

see my previous post. Israel acts in defense of it's nation.

I do not question that.

I simply point out that had the nation of Israel been established somewhere other than in already occupied by Arab lands in the Middle East, this whole terrorism mess we are suffuring today would very likely not exist.

Wade.

 

[5stringJeff]

Wade, your posts have the term 'Zionist' more times than a Hamas press release.

 

[wade]

Except for the fact that the UN sanctioned the creation of Israel. So it was legal, and not accomplished by force - except for the small invasion of Israel by 5 neighboring countries that got their asses kicked by the infant nation.

I see. So the UN is the determining factor in what is and is not legitimate? Right and Wrong have nothing to do with it?