The purpose of Obamacare

[BobPlumb]

I think both Senator Reid and then Senator Oboma have talked about health care reform being a stepping stone to a single payer system.

 

[Bluedog]

In my opinion it was the equivalent of "doing something" about healthcare. The insurance lobby had to be dealt with. It was a first step, even if to start a dialogue about it. With this in place it can be modified or changed in addition to keeping the issue on the front lines.





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A terrible strategy....



Was George Washington wrong when he stated:



Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

Agreed, it was a terrible strategy. Kind of like fire,aim, ready.


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[OODA_Loop]

Once we realize more enlightened political times, we can complete the process by expanding Medicare for all Americans, allowing health insurance companies to return to the business of selling health insurance, not health maintenance.

Why yes.

More enlightened times.

People just are not smart enough to see what good you are doing for them.

 

[midcan5]

It is fascinating that so many see an action as part of a larger narrative of purpose and conspiracy. Consider social security or medicare or the FDA from a time machine that moves them from when they were implemented to America today. Take any of them and then analyse it through your filter that assigns meanings and motivations that exist in your reading of the act. Then attempt an analysis through a reading of history and the situation they faced. If social security isn't one of the best thing Americans do for each other and themselves then you lost me. If you think it isn't then read actual historical accounts of the great depression. America's healthcare was 37th in the world, if that is something any American should be proud of, you lost me again.

'If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today.'

"Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White contracted systemic lupus erythematosus; that's a serious disease, but one that modern medicine knows how to manage. If this bright, feisty, dazzling young woman had lived in, say, Japan-the world's second-richest nation-or Germany (third richest), or Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Sweden, etc., the health care systems there would have given her the standard treatment for lupus, and she could have lived a normal life span. But Nikki White was a citizen of the world's richest country, the United States of America. Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance. Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old." from 'Prologue: A Moral Question,' "The Healing of America," T.R. Reid

'Health Care, American Style' 'Motivational slogans and pricey lungs in a US hospital'

Health care, American style - Motivational slogans and pricey lungs in a US hospital | Karen Hitchcock | The Monthly

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I don't think the Obama Administration has the skills to be able to run anything well other than a political campaign.

Everything they do relies on smoke and mirrors.

Bingo.
As Kirsten Powers (DEMOCRAT strategist) said - "This administration is great on politics, not so great on policies.
Obama, and most of his staff, have worked most/all of their lives in the world of theory. They have no experience in the real world.

 

[Mac1958]

Obama, and most of his staff, have worked most/all of their lives in the world of theory. They have no experience in the real world.

Yeah, that's a legitimate point. Theorists tend to employ static analysis - "If I do this to this number, that will happen." But that's not the way life works. They don't take human behavior into enough consideration - dynamic analysis - and we see what happens as a result.

In their approaches with both ACA and the economy, they have demonstrated absolutely zero understanding of the way people run business or the way markets are going to react psychologically to certain stimuli. Anyone with a decent working knowledge of business, of medical economics, could have told them - and these folks did try - that their approaches run directly in the face of business psychology.

Like from the song "Vincent" by Don McLean many years ago: "They would not listen, they're not listening still, perhaps they never will."

.

 

[editec]

I enjoy the Clean Debate Zone much more than the rest of these boards because the anti-flaming rules typically keep the extremists at both fringes away. Without flaming, we can have real conversations.

I would like to hear your thoughts on what the true "purpose" of Obamacare is/was.

Do you think the purpose was truly to improve our healthcare system and lower costs?

Yes I believe that the people touting this system believe it is better than what we had.

Do you think it was meant as a big step toward a single payor system in the US by getting as many people onto Medicaid as possible??

No if anything I think this is a detour away from Single Payer Universal HC.

Do you think it was meant to take over an even greater portion of our healthcare system, fail miserably and thus creating another "crisis" which could only be solved by full implementation of a single payor system?

No, I think this is still another SWINDLE.

HC insurance companies and wall street invesment firms do not want to give up the GOLDEN GOOSE that HC insurance is making them.

Or do you have another idea??

I have many ideas...some of them might even work.

I'm conflicted between the three. I don't think President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and their staff are stupid, but perhaps they were naive enough to think that this would actually improve health while lowering costs.

I think they believe this is a slight improvement, and more importantly, they saw it as a political win. I think they've been duped, personally. In the long run this system sves us nothing in the aggregate. It might even cost us more in aggregate.

On the other hand, I think both of them have said, on the record, that they are FOR a single payor system enough times that this very well could have been their goal in the first place.

What do you think?

I think they fell for the REASONABLE MAN scam.

They failed to be unreasonable and that is the ONLY way to deal with the capitalist thugs that run this nation.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

As I said weeks ago - ANYONE who still supports Obamacare is either being disingenuous or is a party sheep.
Anyone with an IQ of a cow can see the end game. It will run out of money in the first 12 months.

 

[Iceweasel]

Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old." from 'Prologue: A Moral Question,' "The Healing of America," T.R. Reid

While that's a sad story, the author is limiting his focus on what's wrong and using the tragety for emotional appeal. First of all, she chose not to get coverage until she got sick. That's like not insuring your car then looking for someone else to pick up the tab when it gets wrecked.

One of the reasons our healthcare is so expensive is that unlike many other countries we have lawyers hiding behind every tree and suing the daylights out of hospitals and doctors. Many OBGYNs can't even afford the premiums anymore, C sections are common "just in case". Any attempt to reform it meets resistance from the left and cries of corruption.

Probably the main reason for the expense though is too much government, not too little. Hospitals and doctors have to make up costs by passing it along to anyone that can pay.

Covering the elderley is generally very expensive. We can extend life quite a bit these days, even if the patient doesn't know what planet they are on. Who picks up the tab? Insurance, then you.

Those countries that have universal care also pay very high taxes. Why is there no moral outrage in taking hard earned money from someone and making them pay for someone that couldn't be bothered until it was too late? Why does the left define morality as how much of your neighbor's money you can spend?

In this state the government forced insurance companies to add and add and add coverage that now includes drug and alcohol rehab, psychiatric care, etc. etc. Guess what happened to the premiums? I had to drop mine as it became literally unaffordable.

So now we should all pay into a system that is bloated, wildly inefficient, designed to cover their asses from lawsuits while providing expensive drugs, thanks largely to, again, big government. Yeah, that will work.

 

[Listening]

Obama, and most of his staff, have worked most/all of their lives in the world of theory. They have no experience in the real world.

Yeah, that's a legitimate point. Theorists tend to employ static analysis - "If I do this to this number, that will happen." But that's not the way life works. They don't take human behavior into enough consideration - dynamic analysis - and we see what happens as a result.

In their approaches with both ACA and the economy, they have demonstrated absolutely zero understanding of the way people run business or the way markets are going to react psychologically to certain stimuli. Anyone with a decent working knowledge of business, of medical economics, could have told them - and these folks did try - that their approaches run directly in the face of business psychology.

Like from the song "Vincent" by Don McLean many years ago: "They would not listen, they're not listening still, perhaps they never will."

.

Listening is a conservative .

 

[Boatswain2PA]

..... America's healthcare was 37th in the world, if that is something any American should be proud of, you lost me again.

'If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today.'

"Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White contracted systemic lupus erythematosus; that's a serious disease, but one that modern medicine knows how to manage. If this bright, feisty, dazzling young woman had lived in, say, Japan-the world's second-richest nation-or Germany (third richest), or Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Sweden, etc., the health care systems there would have given her the standard treatment for lupus, and she could have lived a normal life span. But Nikki White was a citizen of the world's richest country, the United States of America. Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance. Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old." from 'Prologue: A Moral Question,' "The Healing of America," T.R. Reid

'Health Care, American Style' 'Motivational slogans and pricey lungs in a US hospital'

Health care, American style - Motivational slogans and pricey lungs in a US hospital | Karen Hitchcock | The Monthly

This part is horse$hit. Most people with SLE get along fine with NSAIDS, tylenol, and paquenil. Total cost of meds probably $100 a month. Rarely do those with SLE need methotrexate or cyclophosphenide, which can run another $50 a month or so. SLE is usually a relatively benign condition when stable. However, when it becomes unstable it can certainly kill you, but if this happens it often doesn't matter where you live or whether or not you have insurance because we don't have many more tools to stop the flare.

Also, your comment about the U.S. being ranked 37th. Those rankings are horribly biased, kinda like the climate change alarmists.

 

[jasonnfree]

Obama, and most of his staff, have worked most/all of their lives in the world of theory. They have no experience in the real world.

Yeah, that's a legitimate point. Theorists tend to employ static analysis - "If I do this to this number, that will happen." But that's not the way life works. They don't take human behavior into enough consideration - dynamic analysis - and we see what happens as a result.

In their approaches with both ACA and the economy, they have demonstrated absolutely zero understanding of the way people run business or the way markets are going to react psychologically to certain stimuli. Anyone with a decent working knowledge of business, of medical economics, could have told them - and these folks did try - that their approaches run directly in the face of business psychology.

Like from the song "Vincent" by Don McLean many years ago: "They would not listen, they're not listening still, perhaps they never will."

.

As far as the economy goes, it looks in pretty good shape compared to when Obama came into office and the economy was in free fall. This is I how look at things. Does it work? It has so far under Obama. Republicans might have done better but maybe not. I'm for a better health care system myself, single payer preferred. The statistic that 44,000 people a year die from lack of health insurance should be a wake up call. We've spent trillions on wars since 9-11 because less than three thousand were killed in the trade towers even though we're not sure who we're fighting. Since then over 1/2 million have died here due to lack of health care. The thread is about ACA and mostly repubs are picking it apart and Obama did this and he should have done that however republicans never offered a plan. They declared war on Obama since day one. This is their only objective to this day.

 

[jasonnfree]

..... America's healthcare was 37th in the world, if that is something any American should be proud of, you lost me again.

'If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today.'

"Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White contracted systemic lupus erythematosus; that's a serious disease, but one that modern medicine knows how to manage. If this bright, feisty, dazzling young woman had lived in, say, Japan-the world's second-richest nation-or Germany (third richest), or Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Sweden, etc., the health care systems there would have given her the standard treatment for lupus, and she could have lived a normal life span. But Nikki White was a citizen of the world's richest country, the United States of America. Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance. Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old." from 'Prologue: A Moral Question,' "The Healing of America," T.R. Reid

'Health Care, American Style' 'Motivational slogans and pricey lungs in a US hospital'

Health care, American style - Motivational slogans and pricey lungs in a US hospital | Karen Hitchcock | The Monthly

This part is horse$hit. Most people with SLE get along fine with NSAIDS, tylenol, and paquenil. Total cost of meds probably $100 a month. Rarely do those with SLE need methotrexate or cyclophosphenide, which can run another $50 a month or so. SLE is usually a relatively benign condition when stable. However, when it becomes unstable it can certainly kill you, but if this happens it often doesn't matter where you live or whether or not you have insurance because we don't have many more tools to stop the flare.

Also, your comment about the U.S. being ranked 37th. Those rankings are horribly biased, kinda like the climate change alarmists.

So what are the rankings that you come up with. I've seen 33rd on one site.

 

[Listening]

Obama, and most of his staff, have worked most/all of their lives in the world of theory. They have no experience in the real world.

Yeah, that's a legitimate point. Theorists tend to employ static analysis - "If I do this to this number, that will happen." But that's not the way life works. They don't take human behavior into enough consideration - dynamic analysis - and we see what happens as a result.

In their approaches with both ACA and the economy, they have demonstrated absolutely zero understanding of the way people run business or the way markets are going to react psychologically to certain stimuli. Anyone with a decent working knowledge of business, of medical economics, could have told them - and these folks did try - that their approaches run directly in the face of business psychology.

Like from the song "Vincent" by Don McLean many years ago: "They would not listen, they're not listening still, perhaps they never will."

.

As far as the economy goes, it looks in pretty good shape compared to when Obama came into office and the economy was in free fall. This is I how look at things. Does it work? It has so far under Obama. Republicans might have done better but maybe not. I'm for a better health care system myself, single payer preferred. The statistic that 44,000 people a year die from lack of health insurance should be a wake up call. We've spent trillions on wars since 9-11 because less than three thousand were killed in the trade towers even though we're not sure who we're fighting. Since then over 1/2 million have died here due to lack of health care. The thread is about ACA and mostly repubs are picking it apart and Obama did this and he should have done that however republicans never offered a plan. They declared war on Obama since day one. This is their only objective to this day.

There is no statistic that says 44,000 people a year die from lack of health insurance.

It was bulls**t conclusion from a very weakly done Harvard study.

Even other Harvard types admitted that it was poor study and that such conclusions would be hard to support.

I've asked the left to produce the names of those who died from lack of health insurance. Not one....and even if they could product ONE, it would still be nothing. They should have hundreds of thousands by now.

Nothing......but bulls**t.

 

[Listening]

..... America's healthcare was 37th in the world, if that is something any American should be proud of, you lost me again.

'If Nikki White had been a resident of any other rich country, she would be alive today.'

"Around the time she graduated from college, Monique A. "Nikki" White contracted systemic lupus erythematosus; that's a serious disease, but one that modern medicine knows how to manage. If this bright, feisty, dazzling young woman had lived in, say, Japan-the world's second-richest nation-or Germany (third richest), or Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Sweden, etc., the health care systems there would have given her the standard treatment for lupus, and she could have lived a normal life span. But Nikki White was a citizen of the world's richest country, the United States of America. Once she was sick, she couldn't get health insurance. Like tens of millions of her fellow Americans, she had too much money to qualify for health care under welfare, but too little money to pay for the drugs and doctors she needed to stay alive. She spent the last months of her life frantically writing letters and filling out forms, pleading for help. When she died, Nikki White was thirty-two years old." from 'Prologue: A Moral Question,' "The Healing of America," T.R. Reid

'Health Care, American Style' 'Motivational slogans and pricey lungs in a US hospital'

Health care, American style - Motivational slogans and pricey lungs in a US hospital | Karen Hitchcock | The Monthly

This part is horse$hit. Most people with SLE get along fine with NSAIDS, tylenol, and paquenil. Total cost of meds probably $100 a month. Rarely do those with SLE need methotrexate or cyclophosphenide, which can run another $50 a month or so. SLE is usually a relatively benign condition when stable. However, when it becomes unstable it can certainly kill you, but if this happens it often doesn't matter where you live or whether or not you have insurance because we don't have many more tools to stop the flare.

Also, your comment about the U.S. being ranked 37th. Those rankings are horribly biased, kinda like the climate change alarmists.

So what are the rankings that you come up with. I've seen 33rd on one site.

It's all weighted on bullcrap statistics.

The WHO rates the U.S. in the mid 30's mostly becuase of access. You take that away and we are golden.

 

[dblack]

The purpose of ACA was to set up private health insurance companies as de-facto public utilities - permanent middlemen in every single health care transaction. Contrary to the belief of many, on both sides of the left/right divide, the goal is not single payer, but rather to avoid it in favor of a corporatist 'partnership' with Congress.

 

[Ellasophia]

I love the Heritage Foundation's healthcare law. My conservative friends were all agog when the Heritage Foundation created it in opposition to "Hilarycare." What's wrong with my con friends? Is it suddenly bad because of Obama?

 

[dblack]

I love the Heritage Foundation's healthcare law. My conservative friends were all agog when the Heritage Foundation created it in opposition to "Hilarycare." What's wrong with my con friends? Is it suddenly bad because of Obama?

Who knows?

I'm just wondering why the Democrats passed a Republican bill. If we're going to get the same shit no matter who is elected, why bother voting?

 

[Iceweasel]

As far as the economy goes, it looks in pretty good shape compared to when Obama came into office and the economy was in free fall. This is I how look at things. Does it work? It has so far under Obama.

That's a belief, not a fact. The facts are that the economy has always bounced back and this has been about the most anemic recovery on record. The libs pad the stats with false and misleading number to make their boy look good and the willing media eagerly passes it along.

About 75% of new jobs are part time. The rich got richer and average income hasn't kept pace with inflation. That's not something I'd be proud of, but I'm not a liberal.

 

[FA_Q2]

The purpose of ACA was to set up private health insurance companies as de-facto public utilities - permanent middlemen in every single health care transaction. Contrary to the belief of many, on both sides of the left/right divide, the goal is not single payer, but rather to avoid it in favor of a corporatist 'partnership' with Congress.

This. Those that make this some conspiracy theory for single payer I believe have really missed the true problems with the law. It does nothing to move us closer to that goal (which is incidentally BETTER than Obamacare). The ACA not only makes large insurance companies mandatory but also ensures that they can’t go out of business even if they screw up and come up with a model that is unprofitable. Crony capitalism – the very heart of why such a law is allowed to exist.

I love the Heritage Foundation's healthcare law. My conservative friends were all agog when the Heritage Foundation created it in opposition to "Hilarycare." What's wrong with my con friends? Is it suddenly bad because of Obama?

Who knows?

I'm just wondering why the Democrats passed a Republican bill. If we're going to get the same shit no matter who is elected, why bother voting?

Better yet – why are the democrats so damn hot in supporting such a bill as such a wonderful thing?