The Logistics of Deporting 11,000,000 people...help please.

[80zephyr]

... and, when you do this, and it works perfectly, you will have 11 million people who can't feed themselves. Are we going to let them starve (because, under your program, that's their choices - either stay and starve or go home and starve). You know as well as I do that we will create a welfare structure that supports and cares for them.

I absolutely agree that E*verify will help to control the illegal employment issue, but it is nonsensical to think that employment is the ONLY reason they come. What do they get when they get here? Freedom, free education, free welfare, and free healthcare. Still beats the hell out of what they have back home.

Why are you sure we'd create a welfare system? Adult illegal aliens get basic free stabilization medical treatment, but not much else is legally mandated. Kids get educations. But, if a guy can't pass everify, we could deport him and his dependents.

Plus, illegals are helping pay for the public school system anyway every time they pay sales tax on something they buy or make a rent payment to their landlord. It does add to the cost of education, however, when more money has to be spent on classes to teach their children English. We've been having that issue in Vegas.

Most illegals are undereducated. What they "pay" is far outpaced from what they receive.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

There is no way in hell that you are going to get a rational answer to this question. Your basic conservative feels like he should just lean out of his window and yell, "Get off of my lawn", and the problem will be solved.

I and others have given you the answers. You just don't like them.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

... and, when you do this, and it works perfectly, you will have 11 million people who can't feed themselves. Are we going to let them starve (because, under your program, that's their choices - either stay and starve or go home and starve). You know as well as I do that we will create a welfare structure that supports and cares for them.

I absolutely agree that E*verify will help to control the illegal employment issue, but it is nonsensical to think that employment is the ONLY reason they come. What do they get when they get here? Freedom, free education, free welfare, and free healthcare. Still beats the hell out of what they have back home.

Why are you sure we'd create a welfare system? Adult illegal aliens get basic free stabilization medical treatment, but not much else is legally mandated. Kids get educations. But, if a guy can't pass everify, we could deport him and his dependents.

Plus, illegals are helping pay for the public school system anyway every time they pay sales tax on something they buy or make a rent payment to their landlord. It does add to the cost of education, however, when more money has to be spent on classes to teach their children English. We've been having that issue in Vegas.

Not sure if it's ever been calculated but if the illegal aliens are counting toward school funding for the districts but if they are, I wonder how the districts would react to the lesser funding.

Since funding is on a per student basis, then a school district can adjust accordingly.

Mark

 

[80zephyr]

I have posed this question before and it is clear no one in the "deport everyone now" camp has even considered the impracticality or the monetary and political cost of deporting everyone here illegally. Just proves how divorced from reality the haters are.

I suppose if we agreed that was the answer, you would have a point.

Mark

 

[SwimExpert]

I often hear about the conservative plans to deport the illegal aliens who are here.

I was hoping to get the logistics solved. If you believe the figure of 11,000,0000 illegals being here, how would you go about such a feat? What if the illegal alien had a child while he or she was here; would you separate the family since the baby is a citizen?

Sounds pretty impractical to me.

We could use trains....

An the trains would go where?

I hear Poland is lovely this time of year.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This issue is made needlessly difficult, of course, as a consequence of the ignorance and unwarranted fear many have with regard to immigrants and immigration law, where that ignorance and fear manifests as hatred of 'brown people,' a fear of America becoming more diverse, resulting in animosity toward Hispanics and other ethnic minorities.

This neo-nativism further complicates matters because the unwarranted fear and animosity of immigrants makes it impossible to implement immigration reform, as those hostile to immigrants incorrectly perceive reform as 'leniency' toward illegal immigration, thus inducing more illegal immigration, when in fact this notion is completely untrue.

 

[80zephyr]

This issue is made needlessly difficult, of course, as a consequence of the ignorance and unwarranted fear many have with regard to immigrants and immigration law, where that ignorance and fear manifests as hatred of 'brown people,' a fear of America becoming more diverse, resulting in animosity toward Hispanics and other ethnic minorities.

This neo-nativism further complicates matters because the unwarranted fear and animosity of immigrants makes it impossible to implement immigration reform, as those hostile to immigrants incorrectly perceive reform as 'leniency' toward illegal immigration, thus inducing more illegal immigration, when in fact this notion is completely untrue.

Fear of brown people? Not hardly. I am a Polish person, and I would vote that if any illegals were here that came from Poland would be sent back.

This racist bullshit is tiring...honestly.

Mark

 

[Kondor3]

Why would we deport anyone? Take away their ability to earn a living, and they will leave on their own.

Mark

Bingo.

 

[Kondor3]

This issue is made needlessly difficult, of course, as a consequence of the ignorance and unwarranted fear many have with regard to immigrants and immigration law, where that ignorance and fear manifests as hatred of 'brown people,' a fear of America becoming more diverse, resulting in animosity toward Hispanics and other ethnic minorities.

This neo-nativism further complicates matters because the unwarranted fear and animosity of immigrants makes it impossible to implement immigration reform, as those hostile to immigrants incorrectly perceive reform as 'leniency' toward illegal immigration, thus inducing more illegal immigration, when in fact this notion is completely untrue.

Enough with the 'ignorance and fear and nativism and race-card baiting' happy horseshit.

This is our country, not theirs.

We have no - and I do mean ZERO - obligation towards anyone who crossed onto United States soil without our express prior consent.

Phukk 'em.

This is not anti-immigration, as the worst on the Left will accuse.

This is anti ILLEGAL immigration.

This is about both (1) neutralizing a tidal wave of 12,000,000 Illegal Aliens already here, and (2) setting the stage so that no more will even want to try to come here illegally.

This is also about serving-up a firm resistance to the pro-Illegal types, and having the courage to take their brickbats, and to insist upon revised and harsher related laws, and enforcement with some teeth in it, and leadership with the balls to put American interests and her people as a higher priority than unwanted foreign trespassers.

Controlled legal immigration is one thing - in our own best traditions, and, historically, at least, in the best interests of the nation.

The current 12,000,000 -strong plague of locusts, however, is quite another.

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[Politico]

At a hundred illegals per bus, we could do it in a mere 110,000 bus loads.

Or we could jam them in at 200 per bus and be rid of them in only 55,00 bus loads.

The question remains once we get them out of here is who is going to do the work they once did?

Americans? Fat chance.

Americans would ultimately, do it, yes, because the market wage for those jobs would have to increase in order to attract the labor. This is one of the hypocrisies of the left on this issue. You people scream about others not making a "living" wage, yet you have no problem lowering the bar for foreign brown people.

You people honestly believe that Americans are going to pick lettuce, clean hotel rooms, was cars, and mow lawns?

Get real.

They did it before. They'll do it again once their Kale runs out. But I imagine it wouldn't get that far. Eventually a balance would be achieved. They would inevitably have to admit that the whole progressive I eat what those tools on network TV told me to would make me live to 100 was the way to go. Until they had to pick it themselves. Then they would have to admit it was BS and would start eating like normal people.

 

[candycorn]

No need to spend another dime on deportation, for now...

Simply modify our laws to...

1. make it a felony to knowingly give a job to an Illegal Alien - with every single hire in the country passing through e-verify, et al

2. make it a felony to knowingly sell or rent housing to an Illegal Alien

3. make it a felony to knowingly sell or rent a vehicle to an Illegal Alien

4. make it a serious misdemeanor to knowingly provide medical services to an Illegal Alien - except emergency humanitarian life-saving or condition-stabilizing measures

5. make it a serious misdemeanor to knowingly provide educational services to an Illegal Alien

6. make it a felony to knowingly provide banking or financial or money wire-transfer services to an Illegal Alien

7. make it a felony to knowingly act as the agent for an Illegal Alien in order to circumvent (1) thru (6) above

And whatever else we think might be required, in order to make our soil 'legally toxic' to Illegal Aliens.

Including the banning of 'Sanctuary' status for any polity (city, county, state, etc.), on behalf of Illegal Aliens.

Give 'em fair warning... oh, say, six months, before the new range of laws goes into effect, then...

Implementation Day... put teeth into those laws... and make 'em stick.

Well, #4 is stupid. Someone comes over the border/gets off the boat with a communicable disease; you don't want that disease to spread. Yes, I know you want to punish and make the lives of persons miserable but this is stupid.

Also #7...they don't get the Miranda rights?

But the rest...I'm with you. Just make sure you don't give the "they loooked illegal" benefit of the doubt to those who are going to discriminate. I mean if I'm looking at doing time if I "knowingly" do something, I'm going to avoid being put in the position of appearing so if your name is John Smith, let me show you the apartment...if your name is John Lopez...maybe I don't show you the apartment....it could be a felony.

That being said, it would be fun to take something like 5 states, implement those rules and see where those states are 5 years from now. I doubt you'd see much of a difference in the current levels but I think you'd definitely see less immigration into those states.

 

[candycorn]

I often hear about the conservative plans to deport the illegal aliens who are here.

I was hoping to get the logistics solved. If you believe the figure of 11,000,0000 illegals being here, how would you go about such a feat? What if the illegal alien had a child while he or she was here; would you separate the family since the baby is a citizen?

Sounds pretty impractical to me.

Why would we deport anyone? Take away their ability to earn a living, and they will leave on their own.

Mark

I would doubt that would work. Under the table payments and barter would likely lessen the effect. Look at SSD....you can't make over $721 a month and keep your benefits which is about $1,000 a month. So supposedly, we have millions of folks getting by on $1721 per month or less. Right? Sure...and I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

 

[American Horse]

Virtually none of that is acceptable to a majority of Americans. We should go for what is doable and forget the hyperbole.

I don't think you were paying attention to the 2014 mid-terms...

I guess that's a matter of opinion.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I have run a business. EVERY employer is already required to fill out an I-9 form for every employee.

The laws are in place. Simply enforce them.

Mark

However the fact is that I-9's are "filed" with the employer and there is no checking to actually determine if the person is who they say they are. The employer is basically required to accept the documents presented at fact value. The employer can actually get in trouble if (s)he treats employees differently when it comes to document procurement requirements for verifying some types of employees but not others.


>>>>

 

[Kondor3]

No need to spend another dime on deportation, for now...

Simply modify our laws to...

1. make it a felony to knowingly give a job to an Illegal Alien - with every single hire in the country passing through e-verify, et al

2. make it a felony to knowingly sell or rent housing to an Illegal Alien

3. make it a felony to knowingly sell or rent a vehicle to an Illegal Alien

4. make it a serious misdemeanor to knowingly provide medical services to an Illegal Alien - except emergency humanitarian life-saving or condition-stabilizing measures

5. make it a serious misdemeanor to knowingly provide educational services to an Illegal Alien

6. make it a felony to knowingly provide banking or financial or money wire-transfer services to an Illegal Alien

7. make it a felony to knowingly act as the agent for an Illegal Alien in order to circumvent (1) thru (6) above

And whatever else we think might be required, in order to make our soil 'legally toxic' to Illegal Aliens.

Including the banning of 'Sanctuary' status for any polity (city, county, state, etc.), on behalf of Illegal Aliens.

Give 'em fair warning... oh, say, six months, before the new range of laws goes into effect, then...

Implementation Day... put teeth into those laws... and make 'em stick.

Well, #4 is stupid. Someone comes over the border/gets off the boat with a communicable disease; you don't want that disease to spread. Yes, I know you want to punish and make the lives of persons miserable but this is stupid...

No. Number 4 is not stupid. But you did, indeed, make a good catch. Fine. Treat people just arrived who are symptomatic, in the interest of public health. But, for every new arrival requiring medical attention, there are probably thousand(s) already here, who obtain free taxpayer-funded medical care for non-life-threatening issues, and it is this vast and overwhelmingly larger audience that is being targeted by Number 4. Oh, and, by the way, I don't want to punish and make the lives of people miserable. I want them to be happy and healthy, in their own countries of origin, and to leave mine. We do this, in part, by cutting off free medical services for all but life-threatening presenting situations.

...Also #7...they don't get the Miranda rights?...

For an American Citizen accused of acting as an agent for an Illegal Alien, in order to circumvent imposed barriers upon Illegal Aliens - where, in any of that, do you get the impression that such accused Citizens would not be Mirand-ized?

...But the rest...I'm with you. Just make sure you don't give the "they loooked illegal" benefit of the doubt to those who are going to discriminate. I mean if I'm looking at doing time if I "knowingly" do something, I'm going to avoid being put in the position of appearing so if your name is John Smith, let me show you the apartment...if your name is John Lopez...maybe I don't show you the apartment....it could be a felony...

Yep. Another good catch. The Devil is in the Details. When crafting such law, we would certainly need to establish enforcement criteria and standards and threshholds and triggering circumstances...something along the lines of 'asking for identification' and/or '...a reasonable person would have known...' could be conjured without too much trouble.

...That being said, it would be fun to take something like 5 states, implement those rules and see where those states are 5 years from now. I doubt you'd see much of a difference in the current levels but I think you'd definitely see less immigration into those states.

I see it differently, but even if you're correct, a simple lessening of the immigration rate would pay off nicely.

 

[Kondor3]

I have run a business. EVERY employer is already required to fill out an I-9 form for every employee.

The laws are in place. Simply enforce them.

Mark

However the fact is that I-9's are "filed" with the employer and there is no checking to actually determine if the person is who they say they are. The employer is basically required to accept the documents presented at fact value. The employer can actually get in trouble if (s)he treats employees differently when it comes to document procurement requirements for verifying some types of employees but not others.


>>>>

Perhaps it's time to require an ID for everyone, and to require certification of citizenship during the course of obtaining such IDs, and to embed citizenship status onto the face (and electronics?) of such IDs? We've been avoiding this for years, with good reason. But circumstances (outside immigration pressure) may be forcing us into that very solution. I dunno.

 

[Kondor3]

Virtually none of that is acceptable to a majority of Americans. We should go for what is doable and forget the hyperbole.

I don't think you were paying attention to the 2014 mid-terms...

I guess that's a matter of opinion.

Or interpretation of events, at any rate.

 

[bendog]

There is no way in hell that you are going to get a rational answer to this question. Your basic conservative feels like he should just lean out of his window and yell, "Get off of my lawn", and the problem will be solved.

I and others have given you the answers. You just don't like them.

Mark

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/uploads/immigration/immig_west/E.pdf

Actually, you haven't. The only way to deport them is to do so in a way that does not comport with the due process the law requires.
"Immigration proceedings, although not subject to the full range of constitutional protections, must conform to the Fifth Amendment’s requirement of due process." Salgado-Diaz v. Gonzales, 395 F.3d 1158, 1162 (9th Cir. 2005) (as amended); see also Gonzaga-Ortega v. Holder, No. 07-74361, --- F.3d ---, 2013 WL 5198549, at *8 (9th Cir. June 7, 2013) (as amended); Vilchez v. Holder, 682 F.3d 1195, 1199 (9th Cir. 2012); United Sates v. Reyes-Bonilla, 671 F.3d 1036, 1045 (9th Cir. 2012), cert denied by 133 S. Ct. 322 (2012); Pangilinan v. Holder, 568 F.3d 708, 709 (9th Cir. 2009) (order). "A full and fair hearing is one of the due process rights afforded to aliens in deportation proceedings. … A court will grant a petition on due process grounds only if the proceeding was so fundamentally unfair that the alien was prevented from reasonably presenting his case." Gutierrez v. Holder, 662 F.3d 1083, 1091 (9th Cir. 2011) (citations and quotation marks omitted); see also Cano-Merida v. INS, 311 F.3d 960, 964 (9th Cir. 2002); Colmenar v. INS, 210 F.3d 967, 971 (9th Cir. 2000) ("[A]n alien who faces deportation is entitled to a full and fair hearing of his claims and a reasonable opportunity to present evidence on his behalf."). Removing an alien from the United States without any procedural safeguards of a formal hearing may result in a due process violation. See Salgado-Diaz, 395 F.3d at 1162-63 ("[F]ailing to afford petitioner an evidentiary hearing on his serious allegations of having been unlawfully stopped and expelled from the United States, aborting his pending immigration proceedings and the relief available to him at the time, violated his right to due process of law.").

What you and others have done is opine they don't like the law.

 

[g5000]

I have run a business. EVERY employer is already required to fill out an I-9 form for every employee.

The laws are in place. Simply enforce them.

Mark

However the fact is that I-9's are "filed" with the employer and there is no checking to actually determine if the person is who they say they are. The employer is basically required to accept the documents presented at fact value. The employer can actually get in trouble if (s)he treats employees differently when it comes to document procurement requirements for verifying some types of employees but not others.


>>>>

Perhaps it's time to require an ID for everyone, and to require certification of citizenship during the course of obtaining such IDs, and to embed citizenship status onto the face (and electronics?) of such IDs? We've been avoiding this for years, with good reason. But circumstances (outside immigration pressure) may be forcing us into that very solution. I dunno.

Papers! Papers, please!

 

[bendog]

It seems to me that the good old social security card/no should do the trick, if "guest workers" must obtain a soc sec card or some similar natl idea, if they are ineligible for a soc sec card. If there's one central database with every number/name, and data to show the latest payroll withholding tax. Then, if anyone applies for a job, they have to produce their number. If the number was invalid, it wouldn't be in the database, and if the person applying was trying to use another person's number, then the database would show they are already employed, and in that case there should be more proof of ID required. I don't see how that involves a greater privacy intrusion than already exists.