Subject: 545 People

[saveliberty]

The natural resource of America is and was the people. People intent on building a future under liberty and pursuit of happiness. The infrastructure you speak of was built by private industry. Railroads? Government or private? Agriculture was built by farmers, who took risks. Your model is simplistic and without merit.

we are a phenomenon in and of ourselves. you and i could argue about history, then go out and flatten our counterpart anywhere else on the planet on productivity. its not just labor, but the overall picture.

back to business, my model is capitalism and the US, specifically. i refute the idea that we'd misstepped and point to the fact we're the only superpower on the planet, foremost, as my arguement's basis. its supported by the fathers of capitalist economics on the basics of it.

where's your laizez-faire idea coming from? please dont put forward a neo-conservative editorialist. where is it remotely in practice, while we're chasing down merit?

infrastructure is certainly public/private. we conquered the country with a public millitary. cities, the king-pin of capitalism, are huge government infrastructure investments where business and government share growth. most of our rails are government funded now, and for the last 100 years. the bond measures needed to put together the infrastructure of eastern seaboard cities, win the civil war, among other manifest desitiny conflicts in the mid-19th century, and build the transcontinental rail system, specifically, mounted the pressure to levy a federal tax.... that's just the infrastructure predating the 1900s.

the government prints the money. tax is part of the resposibility it has to make sure its worth something.

i could talk about econ for a while, but so im not barking up the wrong tree, do you acknowledge a requirement for tax, or did you craft the idiot ball yourself?

You drop the bold printed turd all on your own? Tax has nothing to do with money being worth more. It causes inflation of the money because it does not value add. It promises the money will have value to pay a debt. It really isn't even saying that at present.

 

[antagon]

what do you mean by 'inflation of the money'? that is confusing.

id call issuing debt the 'promise'. i think that our tax policy in 1913 helped investors and debtors to rest assured that the dollar was safe... that was on the gold standard, today theres even more to that.

so we should have taxes, buddy? <---- IQ test.

 

[saveliberty]

what do you mean by 'inflation of the money'? that is confusing.

id call issuing debt the 'promise'. i think that our tax policy in 1913 helped investors and debtors to rest assured that the dollar was safe... that was on the gold standard, today theres even more to that.

so we should have taxes, buddy? <---- IQ test.

inflation in the sense a loaf of bread without tax being imposed on it might cost a dollar. With taxes added, but no other real value, the bread costs $1.10.

As for your last question, check Well now surprise surprise thread post #87.

 

[antagon]

inflation of the money was a double negative of sorts. i didnt know if ya meant deflation/valuation or inflation.

ok. people usually look at inflation as a different mechanism, but id except that. what im talking about is default-on-debt inflation or monetization inflation, where your cash tanks on bad speculation of its worth. $8 bread. a currency could fail without good fiscal structure. for every country movin and shakin in the developed world, tax is, indeed a huge part of fiscal policy.

*going to look up that post*

 

[saveliberty]

inflation of the money was a double negative of sorts. i didnt know if ya meant deflation/valuation or inflation.

ok. people usually look at inflation as a different mechanism, but id except that. what im talking about is default-on-debt inflation or monetization inflation, where your cash tanks on bad speculation of its worth. $8 bread. a currency could fail without good fiscal structure. for every country movin and shakin in the developed world, tax is, indeed a huge part of fiscal policy.

*going to look up that post*

Thanks for the feedback Antagon. Your inflation is about six months to a year out.

 

[mal]

Correctly Attributed.

What in the world happened to us? The article below is completely neutral, ...not anti republican or democrat. Charlie Reese, a retired reporter for the Orlando Sentinal has hit the nail directly on the head, defining clearly who it is that in the final analysis must assume responsibility for the judgments made that impact each one of us every day.


545 vs. 300,000,000


Charlie Reese has been a journalist for 49 years.

545 PEOPLE By Charlie Reese

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them..

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits.... The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? Nancy Pelosi. She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red ..

If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ , it's because they want them in IRAQ

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses.

Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees...We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

What you do with this article now that you have read it...is up to you.




This might be funny if it weren't so darned true. Be sure to read all the way to the end:

Tax his land,
Tax his bed,
Tax the table
At which he's fed.

Tax his tractor,
Tax his mule,
Teach him taxes
Are the rule.

Tax his work,
Tax his pay,
He works for peanuts
Anyway!

Tax his cow,
Tax his goat,
Tax his pants,
Tax his coat.

Tax his ties,
Tax his shirt,
Tax his work,
Tax his dirt.

Tax his tobacco,
Tax his drink,
Tax him if he
Tries to think.

Tax his cigars,
Tax his beers,
If he cries
Tax his tears.

Tax his car,
Tax his gas,
Find other ways
To tax his ass.

Tax all he has
Then let him know
That you won't be done
Till he has no dough.

When he screams and hollers;
Then tax him some more,
Tax him till
He's good and sore.

Then tax his coffin,
Tax his grave,
Tax the sod in
Which he's laid...

Put these words
Upon his tomb,
Taxes drove me
to my doom...'

When he's gone,
Do not relax,
Its time to apply
The inheritance tax..

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon)
Gross Receipts Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Personal Property Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Service Charge T ax
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax
Sales Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Ser vice FeeTax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge=0Tax
Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY? Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation was the most prosperous in the world. We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What in the hell happened? Can you say "politicians?" And I still have to "press 1" for English.

Bumping...



peace...

 

[antagon]

nah. not six months. not indicated by the status quo, though thats not to down-play how bad it is. dollar policy is majic. another part of our country that defies expectation. i feel that because of how widely spread dollar issuance is, that the value of the £, euro and price of gold are all examples of inflation against the dollar, despite our essential commodities affecting the CPI being stable/fixed to it. that and home value devaluation hit the pocket and the index at once.

it was when we were real heavy on the borrow-rama that oil began to creep up. the 'supply crisis' was a matter of more dollars being produced than oil, how i saw it.

was a challenge to find that post, but ive found it. i like your style. states will probably retain and exercise their right to tax independent of the fed. other concerns ive got is that 16% is arbitrary, and may be drastic either with respect to a fall in govt revenue or your $1.16 sense... if the same kooks have the power to modify it... but lets assume 16 points is ideal... nix all other taxes?... other consumption taxes like on oil? is it a VAT or topical sales tax? and, lastly, why?

what i do dig is the BBA concept, but i think that we should be able to sell debt to raise money. its part of good monetary policy, too. (see dollar majic above) the issue is after clinton, both parties got Sam hooked on the debt-pipe (again).

ive fancied the idea of an amendment establishing a fiduciary branch of govt for monetary policy. these 546th through 552th appointees would tackle the revenue end of fiscal policy and hand the exec and legislature their budget with no recourse to overspend, removing the pocket book from politics altogether.

that needs twice the ironing out as the sales tax, and getting lawmakers to legislate their own discipline has eluded even the BBAmendment, moreover creating a disciplinarian.

drastic change... is our outlook really that bad in the end? since we're yapping about govt, it makes it seem like thats really how we buy the holiday turkey, but alas its just a hobby, a vote here or there... yeah, and one of the biggest checks ill write all year. =(

 

[saveliberty]

nah. not six months. not indicated by the status quo, though thats not to down-play how bad it is. dollar policy is majic. another part of our country that defies expectation. i feel that because of how widely spread dollar issuance is, that the value of the £, euro and price of gold are all examples of inflation against the dollar, despite our essential commodities affecting the CPI being stable/fixed to it. that and home value devaluation hit the pocket and the index at once.

it was when we were real heavy on the borrow-rama that oil began to creep up. the 'supply crisis' was a matter of more dollars being produced than oil, how i saw it.

was a challenge to find that post, but ive found it. i like your style. states will probably retain and exercise their right to tax independent of the fed. other concerns ive got is that 16% is arbitrary, and may be drastic either with respect to a fall in govt revenue or your $1.16 sense... if the same kooks have the power to modify it... but lets assume 16 points is ideal... nix all other taxes?... other consumption taxes like on oil? is it a VAT or topical sales tax? and, lastly, why?

what i do dig is the BBA concept, but i think that we should be able to sell debt to raise money. its part of good monetary policy, too. (see dollar majic above) the issue is after clinton, both parties got Sam hooked on the debt-pipe (again).

ive fancied the idea of an amendment establishing a fiduciary branch of govt for monetary policy. these 546th through 552th appointees would tackle the revenue end of fiscal policy and hand the exec and legislature their budget with no recourse to overspend, removing the pocket book from politics altogether.

that needs twice the ironing out as the sales tax, and getting lawmakers to legislate their own discipline has eluded even the BBAmendment, moreover creating a disciplinarian.

drastic change... is our outlook really that bad in the end? since we're yapping about govt, it makes it seem like thats really how we buy the holiday turkey, but alas its just a hobby, a vote here or there... yeah, and one of the biggest checks ill write all year. =(

Yes the 16% was somewhat arbitary. Yes, I expect state and local government to have a taxing authority unique to their situations.

 

[Amanda]

Great post PR.

I must still be naive because as I read it I thought to myself "who couldn't agree with this?". Then I read the posts that followed and was amazed.

I think the really interesting part of the posts that followed was that in general conservatives were willing to say Yes, our government has let us down and we're at least partially to blame, that's taking responsibility. Then the liberals, in general, took the opposite, finger pointing approach. That would be not taking any responsibility. Funny how this same dynamic plays out over and over.

 

[Modbert]

I wonder why everyone saying "Good post PR" IS ignoring his rah rah rah of "one way or another, peaceful or not, we're taking back this country." Because as we all know, violent uprisings are the way to go! Especially when your ass gets trounced in the court of law for batshit insane lawsuits (birthers) and in the voting booth.

 

[antagon]

Great post PR.

I must still be naive because as I read it I thought to myself "who couldn't agree with this?". Then I read the posts that followed and was amazed.

I think the really interesting part of the posts that followed was that in general conservatives were willing to say Yes, our government has let us down and we're at least partially to blame, that's taking responsibility. Then the liberals, in general, took the opposite, finger pointing approach. That would be not taking any responsibility. Funny how this same dynamic plays out over and over.

dunno if that was at least partly directed at me... im not a liberal, and dont think neoconservatives are conservatives.

anyhow, i found it interesting that neocons were taking such a different tack from their position in boom economies. now, suddenly, government bears so much responsibility for their hard time, when it is so popular to taut the private sector exclusively when the bull is on the loose. when the bear's on the prowl, the more-american-than-thou pride is exposed for what it is... a seething disdain for the country and a denial of our still, proud position as the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

i thought that post was disgusting, as a patriot. we've got the oldest government in the world to the point that when we have the economic sniffles, the rest of the world is hospitalized with economic swine flu!

by the time i was done reading that bullshit i had my face all crinkled up thinking "like this poet-pundit-putz could do better than our and our forefathers' elected leadership -- he didnt even pay attention in highschool US history, the inbred, ignorant neocon flunky".

i was pissed. im better now. are you still naive?

 

[The T]

Makes me wonder how much faster and farther it would have grown without the government slowing it down. I suppose you two idiots are trying to claim progress was because of taxes. It is dispite of.

The only idiots around here are the morons like yourself who think this nation could have advanced without taxation, I kind of like having paved highways.

Lots of us don't disagree with taxation - as long as it is:

a. Constitutional or, if not,
b. 'We, the People' are consulted prior to an unconstititional bill being passed to raise taxes.

If it is not Constitutional, then, either they ask us or it is theft.

Exactly. Bravo!

 

[Ravi]

It always cracks me up to see that so many people seem to hate the greatest country in the world.

 

[saveliberty]

It always cracks me up to see that so many people seem to hate the greatest country in the world.

No small wonder Ravi. When you are the lead dog you get to see fresh powder. All the other dogs just see dog butts.

 

[MaggieMae]

Nail? meet hammer. great thread, and what I've been thinking for years.

IF the Politicians think they haven't anything to do to justify thier existence? How about repealing alot of the Liberty-Limiting crap on the books. That'll keep 'em busy for DECADES, no?

I say we start a companion thread to see what LAWS can be repealed to foist liberty again on the people.

I'm really curious what "liberties" have been snatched from you.

 

[MaggieMae]

Two parties can resolve even the most difficult of issues. Husbands and wives do this frequently. However, when that fails it is often a third party that makes compromise possible.

Clearly returning to a limited government with no social programs will not happen. Nor will rampant socialism be accepted. We either find a compromise through a third party system or face a civil war in the future.

Yay!! We're finally getting it. I hope this is catching. I suppose I should also thank Pale Rider, who is usually a fully armed crusader for the right, and only the right.

 

[MaggieMae]

Super post Gary.

I agree Cali. What I wouldn't give for 56 guys like the founding Fathers. These guys had drive, guts, determination and common sense.

But see I tend to wonder how they would have reacted in today's world? How would they draw up a single document as the supreme law of the land that governs 325 million people of many diverse backgrounds, not 70 million white people? How would they propose to govern a nation as interconnected as we are today, on terra firma and in cyberspace? And with the majority of us owning ever tech gadget available? New and more deadly health problems? Deadly bad habits? The demise of the family unit?

 

[MaggieMae]

roger that.

back to history class: we're coming up on the 100 year anniversery of progressive income tax. NOW we are the most prosperous nation in the world. in 1909 we had debt without a solution, a negligible middle class and mexico's economy eclipsed our own. neocondertal history is amazing. flunkmode.

Makes me wonder how much faster and farther it would have grown without the government slowing it down. I suppose you two idiots are trying to claim progress was because of taxes. It is dispite of.

quite specifically my point, yes. i submit that mexico failed to tax progressively and fulfill the obligation as a government to place infrastructure for business and... brace yourself... 'spread it around a little' with regard to wealth.

studying mexico, granted that about 100 years ago, their economy was neck and neck with ours, and granted the par in natural resources like oil which we share, they are your smaller, low-tax government. they have freer enterprise than we do still. quite a bit could be extracted from the divergence of our states, but its the fable of the turtle and the hare that sums up the merits of your 'faster and farther' theory.

many of the developing economies of the world adhere to your model, but that doesnt make them great (far), just fast. could you bring to bare any, any whatsoever, highly conservative country where free-enterprise isnt partenered with government investment via tax? of course i mean countries in the 1st world, not anywhere where donkeys, mules, camels or elephants are considered capital.

*passes the idiot ball back to saveliberty*

It's as Churchill once said:

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government, except all those others that have been tried from time to time."

 

[MaggieMae]

Makes me wonder how much faster and farther it would have grown without the government slowing it down. I suppose you two idiots are trying to claim progress was because of taxes. It is dispite of.

The only idiots around here are the morons like yourself who think this nation could have advanced without taxation, I kind of like having paved highways.

Lots of us don't disagree with taxation - as long as it is:

a. Constitutional or, if not,
b. 'We, the People' are consulted prior to an unconstititional bill being passed to raise taxes.

If it is not Constitutional, then, either they ask us or it is theft.

Nope. YOU vote for representatives to make your choice FOR you. That's the way it works, Constitutionally.

Frankly, the only suggestion that ever makes any sense to me when politics gets as fierce as it is these days is to advise as many people you know to NOT vote for any incumbent, even if you happen to like him/her. Generally speaking, when Congress is trashed and thrashed, and individual voters are asked if they like their own, inevitably they will say YES. Go figure. I do happen to like my own, but I have two that have been around too long and I'd like to see some new blood, so I won't vote for them next time.

 

[noose4]

Nail? meet hammer. great thread, and what I've been thinking for years.

IF the Politicians think they haven't anything to do to justify thier existence? How about repealing alot of the Liberty-Limiting crap on the books. That'll keep 'em busy for DECADES, no?

I say we start a companion thread to see what LAWS can be repealed to foist liberty again on the people.

I'm really curious what "liberties" have been snatched from you.

He has to pay taxes!!!!