San Francisco Bart Shooting , Trial, & Riot

[Procrustes Stretched]

The victim was handcuffed and lying face down on the ground? Why did he feel the need to even tazer him? I think they're using the tazer far too much--it's not a toy and there have been instances in which they have even been used on children. I think they need to get rid of the tazers.

I think it was established that the man had only one hand cuffed and was resisting arrest with a hostile partying crowd gathering. It was New Year's Eve.

Tasers are abused, but I'd rather people be tasered than shot or beaten down. This was a horrific accident.

That's how I seen it to. People just need to figure out that if you fight the police, you're going to get hurt. If they violate your rights sue them later. This isn't the Soviet Union where people just disappeared once arrested.

Life is unfair, and reality is often sad. One caveat, if LE says you're connected to a terrorist (loosely defined) you just might wish you were in the old Soviet Union.

But we are on the same page here. It sounds ugly to say the young man bears the responsibility for his own actions, but life is often ugly.

I have a friend who was shot in the back by a Transit Police Officer in Boston. The Police allowed my friend to die on the ground while refusing a nurse's of aid. A long story, but the cop got in trouble after others were forced to come forward and go to jail in order to testify about their own actions while testifying against the cop. Many of bad cops. Worse is the blue wall.

But things must be looked at on a case by case basis. This guy who died -- his own actions unwittingly led to his own death. I do not say 'caused' just "led to."

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

If I knew why they were rioting, I wouldn't be asking about it.

He was found guilty.

go away

If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine.

your disingenuous trolling is tiring. nobody can be as stupid as you pretend to be.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Well, after seeing the video over and over and reading the rhetoric I can say without any doubt in my mind this officer did NOT shoot this man on purpose. It was a very unfortunate accident. Tragic as it is,(understatement), everyone loses in this situation, yes I know, especially the dead person,while an accident, many are going to use this as an opportunity for more dissent and unrest and another black vs. white, white vs black BS session.

To all the people wanting to perpetuate this racial crap, GFUrselves.!

you're an idiot and a liar. the video is confusing. what is helpful is the eyewitness testimony of the dead man's friends. they testified the cop was saying "I'm going to taser you if..." and that the cop looked puzzled and horrified after the shot was fired.

you and your kind are no better than the rioters -- two sides of the same reactionary coin

GFUrself.!

Now Now Dante,
I really didn't believe all the bad stuff they say about you in USMB, TILL NOW. In my opinion DANTE, THEY in USMB are right about YOU, you are a complete and utter asshole with hanging hemmoroids for brains.
You are one of those perpetuating the BS,posting bullshit and nonsense, I would say again to you Go "F" urself, but you apparently do several times a day.

So people spend their days talking about Dante?



cool!
dD

 

[Gatekeeper]

you're an idiot and a liar. the video is confusing. what is helpful is the eyewitness testimony of the dead man's friends. they testified the cop was saying "I'm going to taser you if..." and that the cop looked puzzled and horrified after the shot was fired.

you and your kind are no better than the rioters -- two sides of the same reactionary coin

GFUrself.!

Now Now Dante,
I really didn't believe all the bad stuff they say about you in USMB, TILL NOW. In my opinion DANTE, THEY in USMB are right about YOU, you are a complete and utter asshole with hanging hemmoroids for brains.
You are one of those perpetuating the BS,posting bullshit and nonsense, I would say again to you Go "F" urself, but you apparently do several times a day.

So people spend their days talking about Dante?



cool!
dD

I am happy to contribute, thank you

 

[Jeremy]

I agree in part. But there are others who believe that society is so racist that a cop actually shot a young man on the ground in front of tons of witnesses...because teh man was black.

that is what is sad. We have not done enough to assist people in entering the brave new world. We cannot afford to let people live in the dark. When we do, this is the price we pay. It could get worse.

IMHO this isn't about racism towards whit or black, but a relatively new phenomenon, racism against blue. Just read some of the threads on this board. People HATE LEO and are looking for ANY excuse to hang em high. I'm not sure how you over come that. What would convince these people that LEO are just people who are doing a necessary and often times dangerous jobs and sometimes shit happens?

Since I've moved to CA., I have come to fear Law Enforcement in ways I never have. I have had good and very scary incidents of contact with PD out here. CA., has a strange police state mentality, mixed with the myth of rugged individualism and a 'let be' attitude towards the actions of others.

Anyone who thinks California is a liberal or progressive state needs to visit Massachusetts, or Minnesota, or a few other states with liberal majorities in parts of their states.

California is huge and IMNSHO, ungovernable with the system in place.

Havn't spent to much time in CA but I do live on the boarder with MN,grew up in MN and travel into MN several times a week, including the Twin Cities several times a year. The police there are not immune from power trips and similar controversy. Just not as many riots. Too damn cold most of the year.
Our last riot (and only as far as I can remember) in the Fargo Moorhead area was 11 years ago.
11 Years After the Riot: Revisiting Racial Tension | Feature | High Plains Reader

 

[judyd]

The victim was handcuffed and lying face down on the ground? Why did he feel the need to even tazer him? I think they're using the tazer far too much--it's not a toy and there have been instances in which they have even been used on children. I think they need to get rid of the tazers.

I think it was established that the man had only one hand cuffed and was resisting arrest with a hostile partying crowd gathering. It was New Year's Eve.

Tasers are abused, but I'd rather people be tasered than shot or beaten down. This was a horrific accident.

I just watched the tape

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKKQ-gzc_Yw]YouTube - BART Shooting - UPDATED!!! NEW angle of the shooting!!!![/ame]

There were several officers there--the guy really didn't have a chance against them, and he was on the ground, even if he was trying to get up. With the accidents, injuries and death caused by tasers, I don't think this situation justified using one, especially at such a close range. He could have very well been killed even if the guy had shot the taser instead of the gun. Incidentally, are tasers so very close in appearance and feel to a pistol that one could be mistaken for another? That does seem odd too.

 

[ConHog]

The victim was handcuffed and lying face down on the ground? Why did he feel the need to even tazer him? I think they're using the tazer far too much--it's not a toy and there have been instances in which they have even been used on children. I think they need to get rid of the tazers.

I think it was established that the man had only one hand cuffed and was resisting arrest with a hostile partying crowd gathering. It was New Year's Eve.

Tasers are abused, but I'd rather people be tasered than shot or beaten down. This was a horrific accident.

I just watched the tape

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKKQ-gzc_Yw]YouTube - BART Shooting - UPDATED!!! NEW angle of the shooting!!!![/ame]

There were several officers there--the guy really didn't have a chance against them, and he was on the ground, even if he was trying to get up. With the accidents, injuries and death caused by tasers, I don't think this situation justified using one, especially at such a close range. He could have very well been killed even if the guy had shot the taser instead of the gun. Incidentally, are tasers so very close in appearance and feel to a pistol that one could be mistaken for another? That does seem odd too.

You're right, tasers are dangerous, and everyone knows that INCLUDING people who resist the police. You don't want to be tased? Don't fight the police.........

 

[Zona]

San Francisco Bart Shooting , Trial, & Riot

Oakland riots, looting after manslaughter verdict in BART shooting trial (video, photos)

--

I get this much, a transit cop shot an unarmed man who was handcuffed and lying face down, prone, on a sidewalk. The cop said he thought he reached for his taser, when in reality he grabbed his gun -- and shot.

I have a difficult time believing a cop shot a guy on the street, in public, over a minor infraction.

The riot I understand, from the perspective of people who fear the police, is that cops get away from murder.

btw, a friend of the guy who was shot, said the cop was saying "I will taser you" before he pulled his gun and shot. The friend of the guy who was shot says the cop looked very shocked when the everyone realized a shot was fired.

yet there is a legitimate question being raised by others: do cops get away with murder?

He was surprised it was a gun, not a taser? Then he should be fired anyway.

This man is a murderer. If there was no camera there, he would have been considered a hero. We all know this.

Fuck the police. (the bad ones.)

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

IMHO this isn't about racism towards whit or black, but a relatively new phenomenon, racism against blue. Just read some of the threads on this board. People HATE LEO and are looking for ANY excuse to hang em high. I'm not sure how you over come that. What would convince these people that LEO are just people who are doing a necessary and often times dangerous jobs and sometimes shit happens?

Since I've moved to CA., I have come to fear Law Enforcement in ways I never have. I have had good and very scary incidents of contact with PD out here. CA., has a strange police state mentality, mixed with the myth of rugged individualism and a 'let be' attitude towards the actions of others.

Anyone who thinks California is a liberal or progressive state needs to visit Massachusetts, or Minnesota, or a few other states with liberal majorities in parts of their states.

California is huge and IMNSHO, ungovernable with the system in place.

Havn't spent to much time in CA but I do live on the boarder with MN,grew up in MN and travel into MN several times a week, including the Twin Cities several times a year. The police there are not immune from power trips and similar controversy. Just not as many riots. Too damn cold most of the year.
Our last riot (and only as far as I can remember) in the Fargo Moorhead area was 11 years ago.
11 Years After the Riot: Revisiting Racial Tension | Feature | High Plains Reader

I almost stayed in the Twin Cities during the very early 90s. But that is when I was given a very scary diagnosis and ended up going back to Boston to fight for my life. Lots of spinal taps and ugh! I had made some very cool, friends out there. I lost touch with them all and my best friend from back then died or maybe killed himself. Sad. But I love the land of HHH.

 

[judyd]

I think it was established that the man had only one hand cuffed and was resisting arrest with a hostile partying crowd gathering. It was New Year's Eve.

Tasers are abused, but I'd rather people be tasered than shot or beaten down. This was a horrific accident.

I just watched the tape

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKKQ-gzc_Yw]YouTube - BART Shooting - UPDATED!!! NEW angle of the shooting!!!![/ame]

There were several officers there--the guy really didn't have a chance against them, and he was on the ground, even if he was trying to get up. With the accidents, injuries and death caused by tasers, I don't think this situation justified using one, especially at such a close range. He could have very well been killed even if the guy had shot the taser instead of the gun. Incidentally, are tasers so very close in appearance and feel to a pistol that one could be mistaken for another? That does seem odd too.

You're right, tasers are dangerous, and everyone knows that INCLUDING people who resist the police. You don't want to be tased? Don't fight the police.........

Was it ever said what he was being arrested for in the first place? Armed robbery, murder, assault, disorderly conduct? Doesn't that make a difference in how a person is treated? Should drunk and disorderly cause you to be beaten or killed by police? Or just arrest the person--which they could have done, seeing all the manpower they had there.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The victim was handcuffed and lying face down on the ground? Why did he feel the need to even tazer him? I think they're using the tazer far too much--it's not a toy and there have been instances in which they have even been used on children. I think they need to get rid of the tazers.

I think it was established that the man had only one hand cuffed and was resisting arrest with a hostile partying crowd gathering. It was New Year's Eve.

Tasers are abused, but I'd rather people be tasered than shot or beaten down. This was a horrific accident.

I just watched the tape



There were several officers there--the guy really didn't have a chance against them, and he was on the ground, even if he was trying to get up. With the accidents, injuries and death caused by tasers, I don't think this situation justified using one, especially at such a close range. He could have very well been killed even if the guy had shot the taser instead of the gun. Incidentally, are tasers so very close in appearance and feel to a pistol that one could be mistaken for another? That does seem odd too.

I've done video for a while. Video is a poor medium for seeing what is happening. It is a tool, but never wholly reliable for what may appear obvious. Tasers are a tool that is abused. So are batons.

We live in a violent society. Cops need tools so they can go home after each shift. They also do not get paid to be beaten up before they use force.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

San Francisco Bart Shooting , Trial, & Riot

Oakland riots, looting after manslaughter verdict in BART shooting trial (video, photos)

--

I get this much, a transit cop shot an unarmed man who was handcuffed and lying face down, prone, on a sidewalk. The cop said he thought he reached for his taser, when in reality he grabbed his gun -- and shot.

I have a difficult time believing a cop shot a guy on the street, in public, over a minor infraction.

The riot I understand, from the perspective of people who fear the police, is that cops get away from murder.

btw, a friend of the guy who was shot, said the cop was saying "I will taser you" before he pulled his gun and shot. The friend of the guy who was shot says the cop looked very shocked when the everyone realized a shot was fired.

yet there is a legitimate question being raised by others: do cops get away with murder?

He was surprised it was a gun, not a taser? Then he should be fired anyway.

This man is a murderer. If there was no camera there, he would have been considered a hero. We all know this.

Fuck the police. (the bad ones.)

Zona, the mind can be in more than one place at a time. Have you ever looked for your keys while they are in your hand?

The poor cop shot an innocent man. He did so unknowingly. He carries an awful burden. He will pay society a debt, but his own punishment is his mind--he will live with this forever.

nuf said

 

[Jeremy]

Since I've moved to CA., I have come to fear Law Enforcement in ways I never have. I have had good and very scary incidents of contact with PD out here. CA., has a strange police state mentality, mixed with the myth of rugged individualism and a 'let be' attitude towards the actions of others.

Anyone who thinks California is a liberal or progressive state needs to visit Massachusetts, or Minnesota, or a few other states with liberal majorities in parts of their states.

California is huge and IMNSHO, ungovernable with the system in place.

Havn't spent to much time in CA but I do live on the boarder with MN,grew up in MN and travel into MN several times a week, including the Twin Cities several times a year. The police there are not immune from power trips and similar controversy. Just not as many riots. Too damn cold most of the year.
Our last riot (and only as far as I can remember) in the Fargo Moorhead area was 11 years ago.
11 Years After the Riot: Revisiting Racial Tension | Feature | High Plains Reader

I almost stayed in the Twin Cities during the very early 90s. But that is when I was given a very scary diagnosis and ended up going back to Boston to fight for my life. Lots of spinal taps and ugh! I had made some very cool, friends out there. I lost touch with them all and my best friend from back then died or maybe killed himself. Sad. But I love the land of HHH.

That doesn't sound like too much fun. Despite any name calling I may have done or may do in the future I'm glad you are doing better. I, for one, can't wait until the HHH metrodome is torn down. Due to it's namesake and the fact it is a POS stadium. I'm still surprised the MN uber-libs didn't name the new Twins stadium Al Franken Field. Than I may have had to start rooting for the White Sox.

...but anyway...

 

[ConHog]

I just watched the tape

YouTube - BART Shooting - UPDATED!!! NEW angle of the shooting!!!!

There were several officers there--the guy really didn't have a chance against them, and he was on the ground, even if he was trying to get up. With the accidents, injuries and death caused by tasers, I don't think this situation justified using one, especially at such a close range. He could have very well been killed even if the guy had shot the taser instead of the gun. Incidentally, are tasers so very close in appearance and feel to a pistol that one could be mistaken for another? That does seem odd too.

You're right, tasers are dangerous, and everyone knows that INCLUDING people who resist the police. You don't want to be tased? Don't fight the police.........

Was it ever said what he was being arrested for in the first place? Armed robbery, murder, assault, disorderly conduct? Doesn't that make a difference in how a person is treated? Should drunk and disorderly cause you to be beaten or killed by police? Or just arrest the person--which they could have done, seeing all the manpower they had there.

His initial offense is irrelevant. LEO are trained to respond with appropriate force to EVERY situation. Is hitting him with a taser any more force than 5 or 6 cops piling on him?

Why do some of yall seem to think a LEO should literally be taking a beating before they fight back? Take part in a SINGLE arrest and I guarantee you change your tune. I wonder do you also say the military should never fire first? Should they hold fire until they are over ran, and then start fighting?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Havn't spent to much time in CA but I do live on the boarder with MN,grew up in MN and travel into MN several times a week, including the Twin Cities several times a year. The police there are not immune from power trips and similar controversy. Just not as many riots. Too damn cold most of the year.
Our last riot (and only as far as I can remember) in the Fargo Moorhead area was 11 years ago.
11 Years After the Riot: Revisiting Racial Tension | Feature | High Plains Reader

I almost stayed in the Twin Cities during the very early 90s. But that is when I was given a very scary diagnosis and ended up going back to Boston to fight for my life. Lots of spinal taps and ugh! I had made some very cool, friends out there. I lost touch with them all and my best friend from back then died or maybe killed himself. Sad. But I love the land of HHH.

That doesn't sound like too much fun. Despite any name calling I may have done or may do in the future I'm glad you are doing better. I, for one, can't wait until the HHH metrodome is torn down. Due to it's namesake and the fact it is a POS stadium. I'm still surprised the MN uber-libs didn't name the new Twins stadium Al Franken Field. Than I may have had to start rooting for the White Sox.

...but anyway...

I grew up admiring HHH because he was said to be the most respected and loved member of Congress in his day. Bipartisanship, respect, and decency, and honor were his badge.

I love AL Franken. He is one smart bastard.

and I beat the grim reaper a few times, and moved on, but we lost my younger brother to him. go figure, we planned early on for me to be the first sibling to go and...

life is funny.

I have very fond memories of the Twin Cities. I was there during the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings. I spent a week of that time in a motel filled with old time conservative Minnesotans. It was odd. Just outside the Twin Cities was a cultural wall.

 

[Jeremy]

I almost stayed in the Twin Cities during the very early 90s. But that is when I was given a very scary diagnosis and ended up going back to Boston to fight for my life. Lots of spinal taps and ugh! I had made some very cool, friends out there. I lost touch with them all and my best friend from back then died or maybe killed himself. Sad. But I love the land of HHH.

That doesn't sound like too much fun. Despite any name calling I may have done or may do in the future I'm glad you are doing better. I, for one, can't wait until the HHH metrodome is torn down. Due to it's namesake and the fact it is a POS stadium. I'm still surprised the MN uber-libs didn't name the new Twins stadium Al Franken Field. Than I may have had to start rooting for the White Sox.

...but anyway...

I grew up admiring HHH because he was said to be the most respected and loved member of Congress in his day. Bipartisanship, respect, and decency, and honor were his badge.

I love AL Franken. He is one smart bastard.

and I beat the grim reaper a few times, and moved on, but we lost my younger brother to him. go figure, we planned early on for me to be the first sibling to go and...

life is funny.

I have very fond memories of the Twin Cities. I was there during the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings. I spent a week of that time in a motel filled with old time conservative Minnesotans. It was odd. Just outside the Twin Cities was a cultural wall.

The days of HHH were definitely different from today. As far as Frankin, he is just your typical modern partisan. And when it comes to culture in MN. I'm sure your referring to liberal culter. I'm assuming you haven't spent too much time out side of the cities because one thing MN has, is plenty of is culture.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

That doesn't sound like too much fun. Despite any name calling I may have done or may do in the future I'm glad you are doing better. I, for one, can't wait until the HHH metrodome is torn down. Due to it's namesake and the fact it is a POS stadium. I'm still surprised the MN uber-libs didn't name the new Twins stadium Al Franken Field. Than I may have had to start rooting for the White Sox.

...but anyway...

I grew up admiring HHH because he was said to be the most respected and loved member of Congress in his day. Bipartisanship, respect, and decency, and honor were his badge.

I love AL Franken. He is one smart bastard.

and I beat the grim reaper a few times, and moved on, but we lost my younger brother to him. go figure, we planned early on for me to be the first sibling to go and...

life is funny.

I have very fond memories of the Twin Cities. I was there during the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings. I spent a week of that time in a motel filled with old time conservative Minnesotans. It was odd. Just outside the Twin Cities was a cultural wall.

The days of HHH were definitely different from today. As far as Frankin, he is just your typical modern partisan. And when it comes to culture in MN. I'm sure your referring to liberal culter. I'm assuming you haven't spent too much time out side of the cities because one thing MN has, is plenty of is culture.

Step outside the Twin Cities and culture is yogurt.

---

I spent a month outside the Cities. I see nothing wrong with partisanship. It has it;s place. I used to listen to Al on the radio. I loved his rapport with childhood friends who were conservatives. He'd have 'em on once in a while. Al, is not anywhere near the caricature you see.

 

[Jeremy]

I grew up admiring HHH because he was said to be the most respected and loved member of Congress in his day. Bipartisanship, respect, and decency, and honor were his badge.

I love AL Franken. He is one smart bastard.

and I beat the grim reaper a few times, and moved on, but we lost my younger brother to him. go figure, we planned early on for me to be the first sibling to go and...

life is funny.

I have very fond memories of the Twin Cities. I was there during the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings. I spent a week of that time in a motel filled with old time conservative Minnesotans. It was odd. Just outside the Twin Cities was a cultural wall.

The days of HHH were definitely different from today. As far as Frankin, he is just your typical modern partisan. And when it comes to culture in MN. I'm sure your referring to liberal culter. I'm assuming you haven't spent too much time out side of the cities because one thing MN has, is plenty of is culture.

Step outside the Twin Cities and culture is yogurt.

More like walley and venison. But you are correct in the sense that there is a lot of culter in MPLS. I lived there for 4 years and I was never bored. So many theaters, gallaries, great book stores, restaurants etc. , so little time. But that is just one obvious thing that comes along with large metro areas compared to rural areas. It's not limited to MN.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Actually, I don't see why anyone is rioting when he was found guilty.

disingenuous as usual? sigh

I get why they are rioting even though I with many of the basic premises of the arguments the rioters would use.

Most of them were not rioting, it was a largely peaceful demonstration. The "rioters" were all "professional" demonstrators from the radical left. There only premise is that they like to destroy businesses and burn cars. I am going to assume you are not really saying you support that.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Riotng is never okay? hmmm, tell that to the East Germans, the Filipinos, the Polish, the anti-communists, the anti-fascists...

The verdict in the case above does not de-legitimize the question: do cops get away with murder? Saying it does is deflection on display.

Okay, allow me to amend. Rioting is THIS country is never okay. We have a legal system to deal with these issues.

As for this case, the cop was guilty. pretty dumb to draw your gun instead of your taser. do cops get away with murder? Sure , occasionally, as do rich black ex athletes or rap stars. Our system isn't perfect, but it works pretty damn well.

It wasn't dumb in my opinion. Dumb would be drawing the gun and having it accidently go off. The cop's mind had him drawing his taser, and pulling the trigger was no accident. The cop was guilty of an accident, the legal system held him guilty of manslaughter.

I do not deny others get away with murder,. Why you need to raise the idea that others get away with murder in order to say you believe cops get away with murder says lots about your thinking process and your world view.

Our system does not work well, it works better than many broken systems. Innocent people have been put to death.

We have people who would give up freedoms so one person doesn't get killed by a terrorist, yet these same people would often give up nothing to see innocent people not be put to death in their name. the disconnect is frightening.

Actually, according to the jury, he intended to use his gun.

The argument was that the Taser weighs a fraction of what a Glock weighs, the safety operates completely differently, and he would have needed to use a cross draw to use it. He clearly had his hand on the Taser earlier in the confrontation, and it would have required him to use a totally different motion to get it out of the holster.