Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[flacaltenn]

In the meantime what is Trumps strategy here because all I am seeing is pissy vengeful behavior because the Palestinians arent properly humble and adoring after he gave on Jerusalem whole and undivided to Israel.

And yet -- that had ZERO bearing on the vast majority of Palestinians living around Jerusalem. Those folks are largely on the road OUT of Jerusalem headed for Jericho or "East Jerusalem". The distance between Jericho and those Arab settlements as the crow flies is less than 10 miles. But because of the winding STEEP decline into Jericho -- it COULD be something like an 18 mile drive.

So if Jericho were to be say -- "an autonomous Palestinian City State", it could incorporate those settlements in E. Jerusalem easily.. And there would International access to Jerusalem as a whole, if the Palis took responsibility for the security of their portions.

If you read that article I just posted, the 50 years WITHOUT Palestinians getting organized has CONTRIBUTED to the "settlement" issue. And to UNWIND that -- you have to recognize Palestinian expansion in the West Bank as WELL AS the Israeli expansions. It's not easy. But the last sentence in the article says that the majority of ISRAELIS now see "Palestinian autonomy" as a more LOCALIZED form of governance anyways.

Because they are not comfortable with the governing power all perched ABOVE their heads. THey maintain their PREFERENCE for LOCAL governance and social organization. Doing ANYTHING on a western style NATIONAL scale would be like trying to unite the various 45 North American Indian Tribes under ONE council...

 

[Dogmaphobe]

So now I am the topic? Is that your discussion strategy here?

If you are free to use the themes and language you find at pro-terrorist sites, I should be free to point out where you are getting your views.

if you had any sort of actual education on the subject, you would not be using all the jargon designed for useful idiots.

 

[flacaltenn]

Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.

So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"?? Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice??

Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem. You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.

I don’t disagree. But I WILL ding Trump for lack of any comprehensive strategy.

He has one. But it seems to be the same FAILED strategy of FORCING the Palis to form a Unity Government. And the embassy movement was an incentive to have them GET IT DONE..

That's not a lasting or wise strategy.. I asked you -- DO YOU have one?

 

[Coyote]

Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.

So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"?? Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice??

Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem. You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.

I don’t disagree. But I WILL ding Trump for lack of any comprehensive strategy.

He has one. But it seems to be the same FAILED strategy of FORCING the Palis to form a Unity Government. And the embassy movement was an incentive to have them GET IT DONE..

That's not a lasting or wise strategy.. I asked you -- DO YOU have one?

Mine was actually outlined in that thread I had posted..the idea of multiple city states with some agricultural area attached. The rest would be absorbed into Israel as citizens or into the nations where the refugee camps are.

 

[flacaltenn]

Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.

So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"?? Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice??

Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem. You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.

I don’t disagree. But I WILL ding Trump for lack of any comprehensive strategy.

He has one. But it seems to be the same FAILED strategy of FORCING the Palis to form a Unity Government. And the embassy movement was an incentive to have them GET IT DONE..

That's not a lasting or wise strategy.. I asked you -- DO YOU have one?

Mine was actually outlined in that thread I had posted..the idea of multiple city states with some agricultural area attached. The rest would be absorbed into Israel as citizens or into the nations where the refugee camps are.

So how do you "get there"? And why is allowing embassies into Jerusalem a major roadblock to that concept?

 

[Coyote]

Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.

So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"?? Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice??

Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem. You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.

I don’t disagree. But I WILL ding Trump for lack of any comprehensive strategy.

He has one. But it seems to be the same FAILED strategy of FORCING the Palis to form a Unity Government. And the embassy movement was an incentive to have them GET IT DONE..

That's not a lasting or wise strategy.. I asked you -- DO YOU have one?

Mine was actually outlined in that thread I had posted..the idea of multiple city states with some agricultural area attached. The rest would be absorbed into Israel as citizens or into the nations where the refugee camps are.

So how do you "get there"? And why is allowing embassies into Jerusalem a major roadblock to that concept?

Because the status of Jerusalem is supposed to be negotiated. Trump’s actions gave it to Israel undivided, so it was off the table. Putting embassies there supports that status. Is there any reason part of Jerusalem could not have been part of a Palestinian entity?

 

[Coyote]

So now I am the topic? Is that your discussion strategy here?

If you are free to use the themes and language you find at pro-terrorist sites, I should be free to point out where you are getting your views.

if you had any sort of actual education on the subject, you would not be using all the jargon designed for useful idiots.

I don’t visit pro terrorist sites, so I will ask again, why are you making the topic about me? Why not discuss solutions? Whether aid can be more effectively used?

 

[Indeependent]

Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.

So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"?? Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice??

Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem. You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.

I don’t disagree. But I WILL ding Trump for lack of any comprehensive strategy.

He has one. But it seems to be the same FAILED strategy of FORCING the Palis to form a Unity Government. And the embassy movement was an incentive to have them GET IT DONE..

That's not a lasting or wise strategy.. I asked you -- DO YOU have one?

Mine was actually outlined in that thread I had posted..the idea of multiple city states with some agricultural area attached. The rest would be absorbed into Israel as citizens or into the nations where the refugee camps are.

So how do you "get there"? And why is allowing embassies into Jerusalem a major roadblock to that concept?

Because the status of Jerusalem is supposed to be negotiated. Trump’s actions gave it to Israel undivided, so it was off the table. Putting embassies there supports that status. Is there any reason part of Jerusalem could not have been part of a Palestinian entity?

You mean why is a Holy Site being used as a soccor field by Muslims?
Because to Muslims it’s whole purpose is an attack vantage point.
When any Jew gets access to Mecca and Medina...

 

[Indeependent]

So now I am the topic? Is that your discussion strategy here?

If you are free to use the themes and language you find at pro-terrorist sites, I should be free to point out where you are getting your views.

if you had any sort of actual education on the subject, you would not be using all the jargon designed for useful idiots.

I don’t visit pro terrorist sites, so I will ask again, why are you making the topic about me? Why not discuss solutions? Whether aid can be more effectively used?

I believe you should try to find those who have some real insight into Arab leadership.
It’s elusive at best.
Just think that 1.2 billion Arab minds are being flushed down the toilet.

 

[flacaltenn]

Just told you that more than 1/2 of the Israeli residing Palestinians view the PA as corrupt and dangerous. Only about 30% have confidence in Hamas to play a role in ANY government under a flag of Palestine. And NEITHER of those leadership groups want to be friends.

So WHAT IS --- the "Palestinian viewpoint"?? Is it what The Atlantic, Mother Jones or NPR says of their plight? Is that their voice??

Don't ding Israel or Trump for THAT problem. You just piss people off who understand why the Palis are "under-represented" in any negotiations.

I don’t disagree. But I WILL ding Trump for lack of any comprehensive strategy.

He has one. But it seems to be the same FAILED strategy of FORCING the Palis to form a Unity Government. And the embassy movement was an incentive to have them GET IT DONE..

That's not a lasting or wise strategy.. I asked you -- DO YOU have one?

Mine was actually outlined in that thread I had posted..the idea of multiple city states with some agricultural area attached. The rest would be absorbed into Israel as citizens or into the nations where the refugee camps are.

So how do you "get there"? And why is allowing embassies into Jerusalem a major roadblock to that concept?

Because the status of Jerusalem is supposed to be negotiated. Trump’s actions gave it to Israel undivided, so it was off the table. Putting embassies there supports that status. Is there any reason part of Jerusalem could not have been part of a Palestinian entity?

He did not give Jerusalem "undivided" to Israel. I just explained the boundaries of E. Jerusalem to you above. Did not affect 85% or more of Palis "living in Jerusalem"...

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians
※→ Coyote, et al,

The type of government (example: democracy) really does not have much to do about the view (opposing views, singular views, unanomous concensus, and the disbute resolution process) and the correctness of any one particular view point.

The theory of "substance" suggests that if there is no opposing view to a political question, then the political question is much todo about nothing. The implication is that any Pro-Israeli political view is questionable by an opposition view. And each view has some alternative view to the question.

No country can ALWAYS make decisions that will be absolutely and universally accepted as correct ("right"). That would include the Israelis.

Israel is only often "more right" than the "Arab Palestians." This is taken in small questions.

I am trying to figure how that means there still can’t be Palestinian views or how only Israel’s view is correct? This lines up with the impression I get from Pro-Israel faction that Israel can do no wrong when comes to the Palestinians.

(COMMENT)

In the real world, and in a political context, being "right" really means that one side is more correct than the opponent as viewed by the uninvolved observer.

If you are involved, you are biased. (The term "right" is a form of an "absolute" or state of "perfection." The reality is that "right" and "wrong" is scalar—it comes in varying degrees.) The view is used to refer to an approach to politics.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

Wait. Are you arguing against embargo?

Our history with embargoes is really that good. I protested the blockade of Iraq because the US was lazy and walked away from the situation for 12 years while over 250,000 Iraqi citizens died. The blockade of Gaza really does not solve anything, because Arabs have a much higher tolerance for decimating their basic infrastructure and an inability to thrive in a world economy.. It's gonna be less effective on them than on a "westernized" country.

Nothing is better than to RESTORE what the Arab preferences really are in terms of economic and societal organization. And that's a MINIMAL federal level government and very distributed and more powerful LOCAL control and commerce characterized by sectarian, familial, tribal rule... But what's REQUIRED is a phantom version of those ancient trade routes that wound thru the Holy Land as a hub of commerce for thousands of years.

The blockade of Gaza doesn't solve anything?! Cough cough. Are you kidding me? The blockade of Gaza solves the problem, hella significant problem, of genociding the Jews.

They are not being genocided, Hamas is not going around the world killing Jews. It is a conflict and Hamas deliberately targets civilians but that isnt genocide.

They do use language that calls it to mind. "Rip the hearts out of Jews".

When was the last time they said that? And who said it?

Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.

 

[flacaltenn]

Actually, at the moment, Palestinians have no need for embassies or passports. That's a fact. If they DO in the future, I imagine they are welcome to have an Embassy Row in East Jerusalem on top of the hills. Great views, but it's hard to find a hectare of ground up there that is NOT a precious world archaeological treasure. So the opportunities are very limited for development of ANY kind in Jerusalem or along the Jericho road.

In fact, from Galilee to the Dead Sea, A LOT of West Bank is holy ground. For Jews as well.

Because Jesus being from Nazareth and being a rabbi that fished in Galilee was NOT just a "one of".. There's your Jewish claim recorded right in the New Testament. Jesus walked that Jericho road more than 3 or 5 times. It in the NT..

So embassies in Jerusalem is NOT a deal breaker of any kind.

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

Hamas: "Rip out [the Jews'] hearts from their bodies ...
See:

Leader of the government of Hamas. A few weeks ago.

(COMMENT)

The entire series is quite illuminating.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I don’t visit pro terrorist sites, so I will ask again, why are you making the topic about me? Why not discuss solutions? Whether aid can be more effectively used?

If you don't visit the sites, why do you mimic all their language and talking points with such complete fealty as you do? Are you coming up with this "collective punishment" crap completely on your own?

As far as aid, there should be none. Why do you wish to reward genocidal antisemites by sending them boatloads of cash? You know it will only be applied to the killing of Jews as it always has.

 

[Mindful]

I don’t visit pro terrorist sites, so I will ask again, why are you making the topic about me? Why not discuss solutions? Whether aid can be more effectively used?

If you don't visit the sites, why do you mimic all their language and talking points with such complete fealty as you do? Are you coming up with this "collective punishment" crap completely on your own?

As far as aid, there should be none. Why do you wish to reward genocidal antisemites by sending them boatloads of cash? You know it will only be applied to the killing of Jews as it always has.

A large bulk of UNWRA’s work takes place in Palestinian refugee camps outside of the Palestinian territories, including in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. I ask myself why there are refugee camps in these countries. Why have these people not been integrated into the various societies and given citizenship?

Following the European model, after WW2; 6 million displaced persons. What happened to them? There are no refugee camps in Europe, 2018.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

There is nothing I would like to see more than an open, televised debate/negotiation/discussion between Israel and Palestine. Archived on places like Youtube, Vimeo, and Daailymotion. About six people on each side.

Who would you suggest for your side? Come on, I want to see your list.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I don’t visit pro terrorist sites, so I will ask again, why are you making the topic about me? Why not discuss solutions? Whether aid can be more effectively used?

If you don't visit the sites, why do you mimic all their language and talking points with such complete fealty as you do? Are you coming up with this "collective punishment" crap completely on your own?

As far as aid, there should be none. Why do you wish to reward genocidal antisemites by sending them boatloads of cash? You know it will only be applied to the killing of Jews as it always has.

Or you could give boatloads of cash to Israel so they can kill Palestinians.

 

[Hollie]

So what would YOU suggest Trump do to line up a qualified partner for peace from the Pali side to negotiate with?

There is nothing I would like to see more than an open, televised debate/negotiation/discussion between Israel and Palestine. Archived on places like Youtube, Vimeo, and Daailymotion. About six people on each side.

Who would you suggest for your side? Come on, I want to see your list.

You wouldn't want that at all. Let's see your islamic terrorist heroes from Hamas account for the billions of US welfare payments that have made them incredibly wealthy.

 

[Mindful]

Might be worth looking at the history of aid to the Palestinians.


The total amount of money accumulated by the PLO from its inception has been estimated by several sources. A 1990 CIA report estimated that the PLO had between $8 – 14B in assets. [20]

Two British National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS) reports, (1993 and 1994) estimated that “despite denials to the contrary, it is estimated that they [the PLO] have worldwide assets approaching $8-10 billion USD and an annual income of about $1.5-2 billion.” The report noted that the PLO was in fact the wealthiest of the world’s terrorist organizations. [21] The U.S. General Accounting Office performed an investigation into this matter in 1995, but its findings were kept secret, due to “national security reasons.” However, a source familiar with the investigation said that the report found that Arafat and the PLO indeed held “well over $10 billion is assets, even at a time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy.” [22]

The assets the PLO held were an open secret. Yet, the PA was never asked to use the assets on behalf of the Palestinian people, and there was no demand to account for the whereabouts of these assets.

Where Does the Palestinian Aid Money Go?