religion Vs. arrogance

[Eightball]

The history of the bible is only as good as the research done on it. IMO, if Constantine hadn't converted the Eastern Roman Empire to Christianity it may never have got the foothold it did. Ditto re Mohammed and Islam. It is all in the eye of the beholder.

I think Jesus was the motivator, and not Constantine. When dealing with omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.........Constantine, Joe Shmoe, Gladys Cooper.....etc........are just tools in a divine plan.

What appears to be negative to the secular(atheist/agnostic) man.....is in actuality........a nice neat part of a plan that will send men and women to their knees, bowing in humility one day.
Romans 8:28..."God causes all things to work together for good..........".

Also, the bible is God's proverbial 2x4 to the stubborn mules head..........or man's head......We(humanity) are without excuse... We search and search under rocks, trees and thousands feet in the ocean depths as though the creator is playing a big old game of "Clue" with us. All along, He has revealed his majesty in that which He has created........Romans Chapter 1.

 

[no1tovote4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Constantine

IMO if he hadn't converted his empire, Christianity may have just been a cult...

But he did and it is not. In fact it is still the largest religion on the planet. (Not quite taken over by the Muslims...)

 

[dmp]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Constantine

IMO if he hadn't converted his empire, Christianity may have just been a cult...

The DaVinci Code is fiction

People follow christianity NOT because it's the "official" faith of an empire, but because it SPEAKS to the foundations of their souls.

 

[Dr Grump]

Eightball

Actually, you bring up some interesting points, ones I would like to discuss further, but will probably lead to rancor...

 

[Dr Grump]

The DaVinci Code is fiction

People follow christianity NOT because it's the "official" faith of an empire, but because it SPEAKS to the foundations of their souls.

Never saw any reference to Constantine in the Da Vinci code...:O)

I believe people follow Christianity in the main
1) Because they were born into it
2) Or have suffered some huge upheaval in their life that only some other worldly experience can satiate their need to have an answer because common sense/logic cannot due to it being just that; common sense and logic.

 

[jillian]

The DaVinci Code is fiction

People follow christianity NOT because it's the "official" faith of an empire, but because it SPEAKS to the foundations of their souls.

Yes, the Da Vinci code is fiction. But there is a Gnostic "bible" and Constantine did cull the gospels to emphasize the "divinity" of Jesus. Hence the reason that December 25th is the birthday of Mithras and Jesus.

 

[Dr Grump]

But he did and it is not. In fact it is still the largest religion on the planet. (Not quite taken over by the Muslims...)

Yep, it is the largest religion due in the main part to him. Not some divine reasoning, but a very powerful leader taking up the religion...just like Mohammed...

 

[dmp]

Never saw any reference to Constantine in the Da Vinci code...:O)

I believe people follow Christianity in the main
1) Because they were born into it
2) Or have suffered some huge upheaval in their life that only some other worldly experience can satiate their need to have an answer because common sense/logic cannot due to it being just that; common sense and logic.

Right - I was just establishing a pre-emptive 'shhhh!' incase you went that way.



Nobody can be 'born' a Christian. One can be born into a Christian family, but unless one decides for oneself, one cannot be a "christian." Christians MUST, by definition 'choose' to Follow (the teachings of) Christ.

I am a christian because of common sense and logic. Christianity makes good, rational sense. Upheaval? Everyone has upheaval and stress. Christianity helps people to avoid those things as destroying forces upon their lives.

 

[Dr Grump]

Right - I was just establishing a pre-emptive 'shhhh!' incase you went that way.



Nobody can be 'born' a Christian. One can be born into a Christian family, but unless one decides for oneself, one cannot be a "christian." Christians MUST, by definition 'choose' to Follow (the teachings of) Christ.

I am a christian because of common sense and logic. Christianity makes good, rational sense. Upheaval? Everyone has upheaval and stress. Christianity helps people to avoid those things as destroying forces upon their lives.

Your first point is a fair one. I'll rephrase. Most people are born into families who are already Christian and are influenced to follow that path

On your second point, adherents of Islam, Judism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Taoism, Buddism, Shintoism, Maoism, Mormans etc would say exactly the same thing.

 

[dmp]

Yes, the Da Vinci code is fiction. But there is a Gnostic "bible" and Constantine did cull the gospels to emphasize the "divinity" of Jesus.

You believe folklore - legend. I'll show you why after I dig up some notes.

 

[jillian]

You believe folklore - legend. I'll show you why after I dig up some notes.

No. I believe history. I have faith as well. But I think faith is a personal matter and everyone's entitled to their own so long as it hurts no one else.

 

[dilloduck]

No. I believe history. I have faith as well. But I think faith is a personal matter and everyone's entitled to their own so long as it hurts no one else.

Faith doesn't hurt---only actions do.

 

[dmp]

No. I believe history. I have faith as well. But I think faith is a personal matter and everyone's entitled to their own so long as it hurts no one else.

In fact, Constantine had NOTHING to do with what was included in the New Testament - that decision was made FAR earlier than Constantine, even though it was a long process not finally determined until about 50 years AFTER constantine. The four gospels we have in use to day have been in use since the 1st century. ALL of those treat Jesus as devine.

They are the ONLY Gospels ALL Christians used from the very beginning.

 

[jillian]

Faith doesn't hurt---only actions do.

You don't think faith in a particular religion has been used to hurt others who don't share a particular faith? Crusades? Spanish Inquisition? Jihad?

 

[dmp]

You don't think faith in a particular religion has been used to hurt others who don't share a particular faith? Crusades? Spanish Inquisition? Jihad?

Crusades and Jihad - could be argued the Crusades were caused BY Jihad.

 

[dmp]

You don't think faith in a particular religion has been used to hurt others who don't share a particular faith? Crusades? Spanish Inquisition? Jihad?

Are you not reading, dude? It's not faith that hurt people - it's how people ACTED upon said faith.

 

[Dr Grump]

The four gospels we have in use to day have been in use since the 1st century. ALL of those treat Jesus as devine.
They are the ONLY Gospels ALL Christians used from the very beginning.

Sure, but 1) That doesn't mean they are fact; and 2) I stand by my assertion that they have gone through a lot over the centuries until they arrived in their current form in the English version of the bible...

 

[dmp]

Sure, but 1) That doesn't mean they are fact; and 2) I stand by my assertion that they have gone through a lot over the centuries until they arrived in their current form in the English version of the bible...

You're sort of changing your questions here. The facts of the bible are pretty secure as they stand - but The Bible never seeks to PROVE itself. The proof comes with the RELATIONSHIP one can find with Christ. It's real. It's true. It works.

You mentioned all the OTHER religions earlier...what you are missing is the single biggest defining factor of Christianity vs. "religion".

EVERY OTHER religion is spelled 'DO!' where Followers attempt to earn or work for or somehow attone for their sins, in efforts to please God.

Christianity is spelled "DONE!". There is no 'action' one takes to achieve spiritual salvation AND physical-life victory over things which will harm us. Christ simply asks for faith in Him; and His permission to reach down from where he's at, to touch your heart.

If you researched current biblical translations you would find (and perhaps be amazed?) at how closely what we read today marries up with what was written thousands of years ago. Nobody 'adds stuff' to the Bible. Many of these authors have DIED for their work - their faith. I can't imagine ANYONE would die for something they new to be untrue.

 

[Dr Grump]

You're sort of changing your questions here. The facts of the bible are pretty secure as they stand - but The Bible never seeks to PROVE itself. The proof comes with the RELATIONSHIP one can find with Christ. It's real. It's true. It works.

You mentioned all the OTHER religions earlier...what you are missing is the single biggest defining factor of Christianity vs. "religion".

EVERY OTHER religion is spelled 'DO!' where Followers attempt to earn or work for or somehow attone for their sins, in efforts to please God.

Christianity is spelled "DONE!". There is no 'action' one takes to achieve spiritual salvation AND physical-life victory over things which will harm us. Christ simply asks for faith in Him; and His permission to reach down from where he's at, to touch your heart.

If you researched current biblical translations you would find (and perhaps be amazed?) at how closely what we read today marries up with what was written thousands of years ago. Nobody 'adds stuff' to the Bible. Many of these authors have DIED for their work - their faith. I can't imagine ANYONE would die for something they new to be untrue.

THis is where we agree to disagree. I do not believe the bible is a factual account. I think it is anecdotal. Did Jesus live? I think so. Was he the son of a god? No. I think he was a good, pious person who tried to make the world he lived in a better place. But outside of that, that is all he was. You talk about Do and Done, which is fair enough. But those differences to me doesn't make one religion more "right" than the other, it is just a different aspect of it. And for dying for their faith, you think there are Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc haven't? I bet they can't imagine dying for something that wasn't true either...

 

[jillian]

Are you not reading, dude? It's not faith that hurt people - it's how people ACTED upon said faith.

No, girlfriend, I said that "faith in a particular" religion has been used to hurt people. Though I agree it is how PEOPLE act in regard to faith that was the problem. And I think, essentially, that comes from an unswerving belief that one's own belief system is divinely handed down and inerrant. And please understand, I am not criticizing anyone for their beliefs. I just think belief should stay personal and not be brought into the public arena as the basis for law or public school education.

BTW, there is something that confuses me and I ask this question because I honestly don't understand. It seems to me that Jesus spoke in parables. Why is it such a huge leap to accept the possibility that the gospel's were, in part at least, the writing down of those same types of parables?