Religion in politics/schools

[Gunny]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB3VTX0pxoE[/ame]

 

[JakeStarkey]

Evolution is a scientific theory.. just as the big bang is.. just as the theory of dinosaurs being reptiles was... just as many scientific theories that have since been cast away were....

I am not talking of hypotheses here... I am talking specifically about the scientific theories that are being taught (which I agree they SHOULD be taught)... what I do not agree with is the school and school officials taking it upon themselves to force children to abandon their faith and beliefs for a theory... hell, we don't even force kids to dissect a frog anymore, but we will attack the child's or the family's belief

And no... just because the bible would be used as an example of historic literature, does not mean that it would then be 'equal' to use the Koran or other religious writings... just as we don't force teaching Chaucer out of 'equality' just because we teach Shakespeare... you don't have to 'make up for' omission in the name of equality in such things.. or else you would have an endless list of things that would have to be taught

The rant above is the kool-aid talking! Where is "the school and school officials taking it upon themselves to force children to abandon their faith and beliefs for a theory"? In Biology class? Creationism and ID do not belong there. Teach competing -ologies in an epistemology class in college. In high school, teach a humanties class devoted to philosophy, comparative religion, which permits creationism, ID, and anti-evolutionary criticism.

Any student can pray in the public schools any time s/he wants to as long as (1) it does not disrupt the educational process (the teacher, not the parent, decides what that is), and (2) does not infringe on others who do not want to hear it.

Fringe religionists, do not attemp to abuse public tax dollars to force your religion on others in the public square. Santa Fe ISD TX learned twice from the Supremes that they can't do it. Now the yokes in Florida who thought they could flaunt a court order are going to learn it the hard way.

Nice try

Nobody said teaching creationism... but simply stating (and factually) that evolution is a theory and is in no way being taught in some attempt to question anyone's particular religious faith, would suffice

And you can find out thru much more study about the flaws in the theory of evolution as a complete reasoning behind all life species or the creation of life itself...

When you talk about "a complete reasoning behind all life species or the creation of life itself . . . " you have moved beyond Darwin's Origin of Species (notice Species, not Life) to -ologies, which include ID and creationism as well as the theory of evolution. So you are using a subtext easily discernible to all who are informed on these subjects. Don't think you are sly about this, because you just fell on your prat.

So we can do want you want in a form of liberal arts class in high school, if you wish. But you cannot discuss ID or creationism in biology class. Why? They are not science but rather belief systems. I believe that you believe, but what you or I believe is not empircally verifiable. Go and re-read I Corinthians 13, my friend.

 

[JakeStarkey]

So Dave are we going to have EVERY religious text as historic reference? I knida doubt it. How about the teachings of Confusus? How about the Torah? How about the Koran? If we give equal time to EVERY religious text I doubt we would have time for ANYTHING else. Now if it is a PURELY optional course and it gives fair time to EVERY religion then I am o.k. with that.

as a christian, i wouldnt have any problem with that

REALLY? Paganism, Satanism, Native American mysticism?

That's why it won't happen. The radical right Christians would freak. I am Christian, I believe, but I have witnessed events on the res that I can't rationally explain. (Well, I can't rationally explain [deleted], elvis, or crusaderfrank, either, but that's a different subject.)

Sure, discuss them all as religio-cultural expressions of their particular socieites.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The view (right or wrong) among Christians is the (small minority of) non-believers, i.e. radical secularists, has done more to marginalize Christians and Christianity in this country over the last few decades than anyone else.
Their response is the expected knee jerk reaction we would see from any person or group who has experienced this trend. When one attacks tradition and belief systems one shouldn't be surprised at the backlash or it's intensity.

We all walk on water, more often than not there's a sidewalk just underneath.

Right or wrong? It's most definitely wrong. As I outlined in a previous post, it's been decades since the church had as much power and influence as it does now. The Republican party is completely owned by the evangelicals. Like I said, politicians have been denied their magical wafers because the church has been flexing it's political muscles. Schools have stopped teaching entire branches of science just because they can't afford the lawsuits from those that want the supernatural taught as equal to science. An entire group of Americans have been denied equal rights based solely on hatred from the followers of Christ.

Absolute leftist horseshit.. I do not think that there was one single factual aspect of your post

Dispargement is worthy of what it is, irrelevant. You can offer evidence for your observation.

 

[goldcatt]

REALLY? Paganism, Satanism, Native American mysticism?

as long as they are similar in nature and not derogatory to other items in the exibit

Well you are a very enlightened man. I doubt very many other Christians would be able to HONESTLY say the same.

Why is that, Cold? I am Christian, and it wouldn't bother me. How will my kids be successful in a world, or a nation, or a community, interacting and doing business with other people from different places and backgrounds if they don't have any idea where they're coming from as far as beliefs? I don't want them preached to, but I have no problem at all with them learning about it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ring sure you can if you've got an opinion.

Dis, I guess I am just interested in the extremists because they are the ones who don't seem to understand the seperation of Church and State.

Separation of Church and State does not exist. The Constitution only bars the Federal Government from establishing a Government run religion or endorsing a religion as a State religion.

Why is it people like you think you have the right to force people to NOT pray in school? Why is it people like you think that someone praying is somehow forcing you to participate in religion? Perhaps you can answer that?

Why is it people like you think you have the right to destroy historical precedent in this Country? To force the removal of statues and monuments in this country? To try and prevent people on their own time from practicing their religion?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Well you must live FAR from where I do because I guarentee that the religious people around here was have a coronary if their children were taught ANYTHING other than Christianity.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Ring sure you can if you've got an opinion.

Dis, I guess I am just interested in the extremists because they are the ones who don't seem to understand the seperation of Church and State.

Separation of Church and State does not exist. The Constitution only bars the Federal Government from establishing a Government run religion or endorsing a religion as a State religion.

Why is it people like you think you have the right to force people to NOT pray in school? Why is it people like you think that someone praying is somehow forcing you to participate in religion? Perhaps you can answer that?

Why is it people like you think you have the right to destroy historical precedent in this Country? To force the removal of statues and monuments in this country? To try and prevent people on their own time from practicing their religion?

ENDORCE must be a word you are not completely familiar with. If the gov't allows CHRISTIAN sybols to be placed on PUBLIC property then they are ENDORSING.

 

[goldcatt]

Well you must live FAR from where I do because I guarentee that the religious people around here was have a coronary if their children were taught ANYTHING other than Christianity.

Some of them, maybe. Those tend to be the louder ones. The majority of us really aren't frothing rabid creatures, honest. I want my kids to know enough about other faiths to be able to wish their neighbor a Meaningful Rosh Hashanah or whatever the case may be. They usually wish us Merry Christmas, don't they? It's only neighborly to return a little basic knowledge and courtesy.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ring sure you can if you've got an opinion.

Dis, I guess I am just interested in the extremists because they are the ones who don't seem to understand the seperation of Church and State.

Separation of Church and State does not exist. The Constitution only bars the Federal Government from establishing a Government run religion or endorsing a religion as a State religion.

Why is it people like you think you have the right to force people to NOT pray in school? Why is it people like you think that someone praying is somehow forcing you to participate in religion? Perhaps you can answer that?

Why is it people like you think you have the right to destroy historical precedent in this Country? To force the removal of statues and monuments in this country? To try and prevent people on their own time from practicing their religion?

ENDORCE must be a word you are not completely familiar with. If the gov't allows CHRISTIAN sybols to be placed on PUBLIC property then they are ENDORSING.

No they are not. Or are you claiming that the money we spend and the Supreme Court Building, the Congress and other Government buildings are endorsing a religion? Further dumb ass, are you aware that Congress has a chaplain and that they have an opening prayer? In both the House and the Senate. Are you aware that the Military has chaplains?

Once again the Government is not endorsing any religion, they never have. Are you aware that States had State religions in this Country even after the Constitution was approved? You haven't answered ny questions though. WHY do you think you have the right to violate MY first amendment right to practice MY religion whether in public or private? Explain how saying a silent prayer is somehow disruptive or illegal? You would allow anyone with an agenda except religion to have the first amendment right to talk in public but would deny religious people that right? Explain that.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I really don't CARE if you pray SILENTLY. I just don't see why so many "Christians" want their religious symbols all over the place. Tell ya what maybe you should go back to church and learn what Jesus had to say about PUBLIC displays of faith.

 

[rdean]

The view (right or wrong) among Christians is the (small minority of) non-believers, i.e. radical secularists, has done more to marginalize Christians and Christianity in this country over the last few decades than anyone else.
Their response is the expected knee jerk reaction we would see from any person or group who has experienced this trend. When one attacks tradition and belief systems one shouldn't be surprised at the backlash or it's intensity.

We all walk on water, more often than not there's a sidewalk just underneath.

Right or wrong? It's most definitely wrong. As I outlined in a previous post, it's been decades since the church had as much power and influence as it does now. The Republican party is completely owned by the evangelicals. Like I said, politicians have been denied their magical wafers because the church has been flexing it's political muscles. Schools have stopped teaching entire branches of science just because they can't afford the lawsuits from those that want the supernatural taught as equal to science. An entire group of Americans have been denied equal rights based solely on hatred from the followers of Christ.

Absolute leftist horseshit.. I do not think that there was one single factual aspect of your post

FACT: The Republican Party is completely owned by the Evangelicals.

FACT: Politicians have been denied their magical wafer by Catholics because they represent people who are pro women's rights.

FACT: Because of cases such as Dover and the one that will soon happen in Texas, many public schools have stopped teaching evolution or any of the related fields because they can't afford the court costs and it's easier on the community to just stop teaching magically created controversial subjects.

FACT: The only reason for the prejudice against the gays is the religious community. That's it. Even Hitler's hatred of the gays was based on religion. They're are good at it. They have been teaching parents to hate there children for two thousand years. No one is raising children to be gay, they just happen.

FACT: You are in denial.

 

[DiveCon]

Right or wrong? It's most definitely wrong. As I outlined in a previous post, it's been decades since the church had as much power and influence as it does now. The Republican party is completely owned by the evangelicals. Like I said, politicians have been denied their magical wafers because the church has been flexing it's political muscles. Schools have stopped teaching entire branches of science just because they can't afford the lawsuits from those that want the supernatural taught as equal to science. An entire group of Americans have been denied equal rights based solely on hatred from the followers of Christ.

Absolute leftist horseshit.. I do not think that there was one single factual aspect of your post

FACT: The Republican Party is completely owned by the Evangelicals.

FACT: Politicians have been denied their magical wafer by Catholics because they represent people who are pro women's rights.

FACT: Because of cases such as Dover and the one that will soon happen in Texas, many public schools have stopped teaching evolution or any of the related fields because they can't afford the court costs and it's easier on the community to just stop teaching magically created controversial subjects.

FACT: The only reason for the prejudice against the gays is the religious community. That's it. Even Hitler's hatred of the gays was based on religion. They're are good at it. They have been teaching parents to hate there children for two thousand years. No one is raising children to be gay, they just happen.

FACT: You are in denial.

not a single fact there
mostly just moronic opinions


the one closest to a fact is the second one
now i suppose you want the government to tell those churches what and how they need to operate

 

[Avatar4321]

I would like for some of you religious people to explain to me WHY you can't teach your kids about YOUR religion at home/church. Why is it you feel the need to PREACH to people who don't want to be a part of your religion(if I want to I will just look for the closest building with a cross). Why do you think YOUR religion should be in the PUBLIC square?

Because you dont always know what you want until you hear it.

Because we have the freedom to speak our mind and share our beliefs in the public square from the Constitution.

Because more people than just me and my family deserve the truth and the hope that comes with it.

Because people should be educated in all things.

Because I shouldnt have to be silent just because you want to remain in ignorance.

 

[Avatar4321]

Why is it o.k. for you to try to FORCE your religious views on the rest of us through legislation?

Now that is a completely different question than you originally asked.

 

[Avatar4321]

As I have said on numerous occasions I respect people of FAITH and I DESPISE people who want to legislate their religious doctrines on the rest of us. If your faith is an intensely personal thing then why get on a soap box and force it on the rest of us? Didn't Jesus say something about preaching in the public square?

Yeah He did. He said go and teach all kindreds, tongues, and people.

Religion is more than a personal exercise in Spirituality. It involves how we related with others and society. True religion is about service. and you cant serve others by yourself.

 

[Avatar4321]

I really don't think you are getting the point Dis. I just want to know EXACLY how people can justify THEIR religion being the ONLY state sanctioned religion. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with MODERATES like my In-Laws but those who try to justify RELIGIOUS monuments in PUBLIC places don't understand what a truely disturbing idea it really is.

No ones ever argued for their Church to be the only state sanctioned religion.

 

[Avatar4321]

Well here in Boise ID we had quite an uproard about a Ten Comandments monument in a public park so perhaps I DO have a bias but only because I have witnessed FIRST HAND what some Christians REALLY want and that is for THEIR religion to have a higher standing than ANY OTHER.

The Ten Commandments are shared by countless faiths. The idea that they are solely Christian or even that there is only one Christian religion is a complete and utter lie.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I really don't CARE if you pray SILENTLY. I just don't see why so many "Christians" want their religious symbols all over the place. Tell ya what maybe you should go back to church and learn what Jesus had to say about PUBLIC displays of faith.

You still haven't answered my questions. Why is it you advocate that those of religion have no 1st Amendment rights? You remember, the right to peaceably assembly, the right to freedom of Speech, the right to any religion they chose.

Are you advocating that a minute of silence at the beginning of a day is somehow endorsement of religion? Then why is it that in New York they allowed special rooms for Muslim Prayer during Ramadan? Why is it in another State they have a Muslim Public school that forces teachers to require children to pray and to teach religious material? Or is that different?

Are you advocating everyone lose their first amendment rights to freedom of Speech or just those you disagree with?

And I repeat is our money an endorsement of religion? Is the fact out Congress has a Chaplain that say a prayer before every session an endorsement of religion? Is the fact the Military has chaplains an endorsement of religion?

Is the Supreme Court building an endorsement of religion? Or any other Federal or State building that has similar works on them?

 

[goldcatt]

Absolute leftist horseshit.. I do not think that there was one single factual aspect of your post

FACT: The Republican Party is completely owned by the Evangelicals.

FACT: Politicians have been denied their magical wafer by Catholics because they represent people who are pro women's rights.

FACT: Because of cases such as Dover and the one that will soon happen in Texas, many public schools have stopped teaching evolution or any of the related fields because they can't afford the court costs and it's easier on the community to just stop teaching magically created controversial subjects.

FACT: The only reason for the prejudice against the gays is the religious community. That's it. Even Hitler's hatred of the gays was based on religion. They're are good at it. They have been teaching parents to hate there children for two thousand years. No one is raising children to be gay, they just happen.

FACT: You are in denial.

not a single fact there
mostly just moronic opinions


the one closest to a fact is the second one
now i suppose you want the government to tell those churches what and how they need to operate

The second one is a fact, but it is not indicative of anything relating to the GOP. Benedict is just a hardass who generally approves of hardassry in his subordinates. If a rare GOP pro-choice pol were to show up for Communion, I doubt his party label would create an exception for him.

I would actually agree more with the principle behind #4, but would strongly caution that there are many reasons for bigotry and intolerance. Religion is one of them, but only one of many and in more cases than not a convenient excuse. You're also overgeneralizing in a major way. What about the Episcopalians, United Methodists and other denominations that welcome and even ordain homosexuals?