Religion in politics/schools

[SWGAFire]

Actually, no, it does not mean there can't be organized prayer in school. It means the government cannot require children to participate in organized prayer.

The government (and that means states as well) cannot require students to say the pledge of allegiance or salute the American or state flag either, but they try. As a Texas teacher, I always told my kids that they could sit quietly or go out into the hall while the pledge was being said. As far as praying in a public place, it was done at all football games in Texas, and most still do it. Teachers don't organize a prayer in our classrooms, but if a kid wants to pray by themselves, they certainly have that right. Now, I was shocked two days ago when I read that the Texas schools are going to be teaching the bible in school. Who in hell is going to teach it? Our teachers are not preachers. They have no expertise in teaching the bible in school, and besides......Christianity is only a small portion of our religions we have to deal with in a public school. Where are the other religion kids going to go when the bible is being taught? Outside to play? What a waste of time for educational purposes. Teach that shit at home and in the church. Public funded schools are not the place for it.

WOW! But look at it this way, if you can, totally teach it right after Zeus and Ra. That way maybe some kids will make the rational and logical connection between the three.

 

[Annie]

Have you watched any of Obama's speeches or commericals on tv lately? He is infusing direct quotes from the bible to sell his obamacare to christians. Now, don't you find that funny?????????????? Especially coming from a President that is pro-late term abortion, and has stated that this country was not founded on Christian Judeo beliefs. That we are not a Christian nation. Maybe he should read the constituion and the declaration of independence.

Now tell me what you think of his infusion of Christianity into politics, because I am quite sure you voted for this guy.

Sounds like GWB Lite

We are not a Christian nation, and have not since the ratification of the Constitution. However, we have become an extremely religious nation since the 2d Great Awakening, mainly (but not completely) Christian.

We are a nation, most of the citizens of the nation are Christian. There are significant numbers of other religious citizens. Let's call it a 'believing nation' to make you feel better. Does that mean non-believers are irrelevant? No. Constitution makes that clear for all but idiots.

 

[Dis]

Well I had jury duty and was told we would be sworn in. I asked the lady if I would be able to not say so help you God. She said I would be allowed to but during the swearing in I was NOT given the option of affirming rather then swearing to God. Not a huge big deal but it was anoying. Heck I even join in prayer at my in-laws out of respect for their home I just don't see why people seam to NEED their religion in public places.

What the fuck. Seriously?? If you're going to tell the truth, you're going to tell the truth, regardless of whether or not you preface it with "so help me God". If you're going to lie, you're going to lie. Simple as that.

True, very true.

I assume that you are have a strong faith-based belief structure? If I'm incorrect, I'm sorry. But saying you do, how would you react if you were told to 'swear' in public that you were an atheist? Would you fold your faith or stand up in it?

Simply put, I am what I am, and who I am, and I am not ashamed of it, nor do I care what someone else thinks of what I believe, or do not believe.

If you're talking religious faith, no, I have none.

 

[Ringel05]

Have you watched any of Obama's speeches or commericals on tv lately? He is infusing direct quotes from the bible to sell his obamacare to christians. Now, don't you find that funny?????????????? Especially coming from a President that is pro-late term abortion, and has stated that this country was not founded on Christian Judeo beliefs. That we are not a Christian nation. Maybe he should read the constituion and the declaration of independence.

Now tell me what you think of his infusion of Christianity into politics, because I am quite sure you voted for this guy.

Sounds like GWB Lite

We are not a Christian nation, and have not since the ratification of the Constitution. However, we have become an extremely religious nation since the 2d Great Awakening, mainly (but not completely) Christian.

We are a nation, most of the citizens of the nation are Christian. There are significant numbers of other religious citizens. Let's call it a 'believing nation' to make you feel better. Does that mean non-believers are irrelevant? No. Constitution makes that clear for all but idiots.

The view (right or wrong) among Christians is the (small minority of) non-believers, i.e. radical secularists, has done more to marginalize Christians and Christianity in this country over the last few decades than anyone else.
Their response is the expected knee jerk reaction we would see from any person or group who has experienced this trend. When one attacks tradition and belief systems one shouldn't be surprised at the backlash or it's intensity.

We all walk on water, more often than not there's a sidewalk just underneath.

 

[Ralph]

I would like for some of you religious people to explain to me WHY you can't teach your kids about YOUR religion at home/church. Why is it you feel the need to PREACH to people who don't want to be a part of your religion(if I want to I will just look for the closest building with a cross). Why do you think YOUR religion should be in the PUBLIC square?

Why not ask "barry" the Messiah why he feels he can not pass the socialist agenda of his health care legislation.......without attempting to TEACH AMERICA what God says?

Does the hair not stand up on the back of your arm....when such hypocrisy is exampled? I mean here we have the President of the United States using the White House as Pulpit to PEACH about the good of communism by quoting scripture...and here you are attempting to preach to us that it is wrong to give history lessons on the Holy Bible in SCHOOL. This history MUST BE IMPORTANT or the 'barry' would not be using it to sell his plan...no?

If you want to see where someone is going......SIMPLY LOOK AT WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN.

 

[SWGAFire]

What the fuck. Seriously?? If you're going to tell the truth, you're going to tell the truth, regardless of whether or not you preface it with "so help me God". If you're going to lie, you're going to lie. Simple as that.

True, very true.

I assume that you are have a strong faith-based belief structure? If I'm incorrect, I'm sorry. But saying you do, how would you react if you were told to 'swear' in public that you were an atheist? Would you fold your faith or stand up in it?

Simply put, I am what I am, and who I am, and I am not ashamed of it, nor do I care what someone else thinks of what I believe, or do not believe.

If you're talking religious faith, no, I have none.

There's my question then (and maybe to Cold's point somewhat), would it bother you to 'swear to God'? If you have no religious faith (and in that, I'm interpreting agnostic/leaning atheist? Or deist? No need to divulge, I'm not calling out).

I do not have Any religious faith. Though I've said before, I'm like Mulder: I want to believe LOL. But I would (swear) and snicker in the back of my mind. And I have. I laughed, but didn't like it. But there are extenuating circumstances for what I did. I was a cop and lived (and still live) in southwest GA. I was swearing in court on cases I'd worked. Given my job and where I live, not doing so or protesting would probably have had serious repercussions on the outcome of my cases (to the jury/judge).

 

[Cold Fusion38]

True, very true.

I assume that you are have a strong faith-based belief structure? If I'm incorrect, I'm sorry. But saying you do, how would you react if you were told to 'swear' in public that you were an atheist? Would you fold your faith or stand up in it?

Simply put, I am what I am, and who I am, and I am not ashamed of it, nor do I care what someone else thinks of what I believe, or do not believe.

If you're talking religious faith, no, I have none.

There's my question then (and maybe to Cold's point somewhat), would it bother you to 'swear to God'? If you have no religious faith (and in that, I'm interpreting agnostic/leaning atheist? Or deist? No need to divulge, I'm not calling out).

I do not have Any religious faith. Though I've said before, I'm like Mulder: I want to believe LOL. But I would (swear) and snicker in the back of my mind. And I have. I laughed, but didn't like it. But there are extenuating circumstances for what I did. I was a cop and lived (and still live) in southwest GA. I was swearing in court on cases I'd worked. Given my job and where I live, not doing so or protesting would probably have had serious repercussions on the outcome of my cases (to the jury/judge).

And doesn't that concern you?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I would like for some of you religious people to explain to me WHY you can't teach your kids about YOUR religion at home/church. Why is it you feel the need to PREACH to people who don't want to be a part of your religion(if I want to I will just look for the closest building with a cross). Why do you think YOUR religion should be in the PUBLIC square?

Why not ask "barry" the Messiah why he feels he can not pass the socialist agenda of his health care legislation.......without attempting to TEACH AMERICA what God says?

Does the hair not stand up on the back of your arm....when such hypocrisy is exampled? I mean here we have the President of the United States using the White House as Pulpit to PEACH about the good of communism by quoting scripture...and here you are attempting to preach to us that it is wrong to give history lessons on the Holy Bible in SCHOOL. This history MUST BE IMPORTANT or the 'barry' would not be using it to sell his plan...no?

If you want to see where someone is going......SIMPLY LOOK AT WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN.

So with regards to health care you are one of the "I've got mine so FUCK YOU?"

 

[Gudrid]

Actually, no, it does not mean there can't be organized prayer in school. It means the government cannot require children to participate in organized prayer.

The government also cannot require children to participate. But a government employee leading prayer in a public school is a violation of the establishment clause. Or so the Supreme Court seemed to think last I heard.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Simply put, I am what I am, and who I am, and I am not ashamed of it, nor do I care what someone else thinks of what I believe, or do not believe.

If you're talking religious faith, no, I have none.

There's my question then (and maybe to Cold's point somewhat), would it bother you to 'swear to God'? If you have no religious faith (and in that, I'm interpreting agnostic/leaning atheist? Or deist? No need to divulge, I'm not calling out).

I do not have Any religious faith. Though I've said before, I'm like Mulder: I want to believe LOL. But I would (swear) and snicker in the back of my mind. And I have. I laughed, but didn't like it. But there are extenuating circumstances for what I did. I was a cop and lived (and still live) in southwest GA. I was swearing in court on cases I'd worked. Given my job and where I live, not doing so or protesting would probably have had serious repercussions on the outcome of my cases (to the jury/judge).

And doesn't that concern you?

The fact that you would seem less likely to be considered "TRUTHFUL" because you do not beleive in God?

 

[DiamondDave]

Now tell me what you think of his infusion of Christianity into politics, because I am quite sure you voted for this guy.

I voted for him as well. I call it a kissup to the shortsighted.

DiamondDave - understand that if you make it ok for only one religion to be taught in schools, at some point it will be a religion that you disagree with. Comparing Chaucer and Shakespeare doesn't work, unless you can come up with repeated examples of mass murder of Chaucer readers in the name of Shakespeare.

nobody said to teach the Christian religion or any particular religion in public schools

And as for the comparison of Chaucer and Shakespeare (or any other showing that you do not have to teach every last thing of a subject in some all inclusive attempt at pseudo-equality) No it does not.... The history of the actions of Mayans and Incans does not prevent things from being taught about that culture....

But nice attempt at an end around

 

[DiveCon]

So Dave are we going to have EVERY religious text as historic reference? I knida doubt it. How about the teachings of Confusus? How about the Torah? How about the Koran? If we give equal time to EVERY religious text I doubt we would have time for ANYTHING else. Now if it is a PURELY optional course and it gives fair time to EVERY religion then I am o.k. with that.

as a christian, i wouldnt have any problem with that

 

[DiamondDave]

Well yes, alot of christians are trying to force biblical teachings in school systems. First off, I believe you have a common misconception of scientific terms. Three of the most common being scientific law, hypothesis, and theory.

Scientific Law is a fact! It is true and universal and absolute.

A 'Theory' is not as you put stated it. A Scientific Theory is 'an explanation of a set of related observations or events...and verified multiple times.' One Scientist cannot create a theory, it has to be tested and the experiments re-conducted with the same results in the end many times for it to be found true. Now we call some findings 'theories' still because we are still learning and discovering mechanisms and intracies for that theory. It's not absolute yet, but ground is being made!

Now a hypothesis is more lax. It is mearly an educated guess based on what is observed. But as I said, it has to be educated, based on a rational string of facts, scientific assumption (b/c it hasn't been tested yet) and expected logical conclusion.

Yes, if the bible was looked at as simply a work of literature that would be exceptable. But, then in the name of equality, we'd have to teach the Qur'an, the Vedas, Confucius and on and on...

And yes, I agree entirely, if people want a christian education there are private schools. Go there to learn intelligent design. Which used to be called creation, which was banned from schools. So they cleaned up the name, made it sound more professional and sent it back out. But I'm not here to rant...

Evolution is a scientific theory.. just as the big bang is.. just as the theory of dinosaurs being reptiles was... just as many scientific theories that have since been cast away were....

I am not talking of hypotheses here... I am talking specifically about the scientific theories that are being taught (which I agree they SHOULD be taught)... what I do not agree with is the school and school officials taking it upon themselves to force children to abandon their faith and beliefs for a theory... hell, we don't even force kids to dissect a frog anymore, but we will attack the child's or the family's belief

And no... just because the bible would be used as an example of historic literature, does not mean that it would then be 'equal' to use the Koran or other religious writings... just as we don't force teaching Chaucer out of 'equality' just because we teach Shakespeare... you don't have to 'make up for' omission in the name of equality in such things.. or else you would have an endless list of things that would have to be taught

The rant above is the kool-aid talking! Where is "the school and school officials taking it upon themselves to force children to abandon their faith and beliefs for a theory"? In Biology class? Creationism and ID do not belong there. Teach competing -ologies in an epistemology class in college. In high school, teach a humanties class devoted to philosophy, comparative religion, which permits creationism, ID, and anti-evolutionary criticism.

Any student can pray in the public schools any time s/he wants to as long as (1) it does not disrupt the educational process (the teacher, not the parent, decides what that is), and (2) does not infringe on others who do not want to hear it.

Fringe religionists, do not attemp to abuse public tax dollars to force your religion on others in the public square. Santa Fe ISD TX learned twice from the Supremes that they can't do it. Now the yokes in Florida who thought they could flaunt a court order are going to learn it the hard way.

Nice try

Nobody said teaching creationism... but simply stating (and factually) that evolution is a theory and is in no way being taught in some attempt to question anyone's particular religious faith, would suffice

And you can find out thru much more study about the flaws in the theory of evolution as a complete reasoning behind all life species or the creation of life itself...

 

[Cold Fusion38]

So Dave are we going to have EVERY religious text as historic reference? I knida doubt it. How about the teachings of Confusus? How about the Torah? How about the Koran? If we give equal time to EVERY religious text I doubt we would have time for ANYTHING else. Now if it is a PURELY optional course and it gives fair time to EVERY religion then I am o.k. with that.

as a christian, i wouldnt have any problem with that

REALLY? Paganism, Satanism, Native American mysticism?

 

[rdean]

Sounds like GWB Lite

We are not a Christian nation, and have not since the ratification of the Constitution. However, we have become an extremely religious nation since the 2d Great Awakening, mainly (but not completely) Christian.

We are a nation, most of the citizens of the nation are Christian. There are significant numbers of other religious citizens. Let's call it a 'believing nation' to make you feel better. Does that mean non-believers are irrelevant? No. Constitution makes that clear for all but idiots.

The view (right or wrong) among Christians is the (small minority of) non-believers, i.e. radical secularists, has done more to marginalize Christians and Christianity in this country over the last few decades than anyone else.
Their response is the expected knee jerk reaction we would see from any person or group who has experienced this trend. When one attacks tradition and belief systems one shouldn't be surprised at the backlash or it's intensity.

We all walk on water, more often than not there's a sidewalk just underneath.

Right or wrong? It's most definitely wrong. As I outlined in a previous post, it's been decades since the church had as much power and influence as it does now. The Republican party is completely owned by the evangelicals. Like I said, politicians have been denied their magical wafers because the church has been flexing it's political muscles. Schools have stopped teaching entire branches of science just because they can't afford the lawsuits from those that want the supernatural taught as equal to science. An entire group of Americans have been denied equal rights based solely on hatred from the followers of Christ.

 

[DiamondDave]

We are a nation, most of the citizens of the nation are Christian. There are significant numbers of other religious citizens. Let's call it a 'believing nation' to make you feel better. Does that mean non-believers are irrelevant? No. Constitution makes that clear for all but idiots.

The view (right or wrong) among Christians is the (small minority of) non-believers, i.e. radical secularists, has done more to marginalize Christians and Christianity in this country over the last few decades than anyone else.
Their response is the expected knee jerk reaction we would see from any person or group who has experienced this trend. When one attacks tradition and belief systems one shouldn't be surprised at the backlash or it's intensity.

We all walk on water, more often than not there's a sidewalk just underneath.

Right or wrong? It's most definitely wrong. As I outlined in a previous post, it's been decades since the church had as much power and influence as it does now. The Republican party is completely owned by the evangelicals. Like I said, politicians have been denied their magical wafers because the church has been flexing it's political muscles. Schools have stopped teaching entire branches of science just because they can't afford the lawsuits from those that want the supernatural taught as equal to science. An entire group of Americans have been denied equal rights based solely on hatred from the followers of Christ.

Absolute leftist horseshit.. I do not think that there was one single factual aspect of your post

 

[Gudrid]

Nobody said teaching creationism... but simply stating (and factually) that evolution is a theory and is in no way being taught in some attempt to question anyone's particular religious faith, would suffice

I think that's exactly how it should be handled. And that's exactly how it was taught to me in high school. Same with my daughter.

Incidentally, some Christian private schools teach evolution.

 

[DiveCon]

So Dave are we going to have EVERY religious text as historic reference? I knida doubt it. How about the teachings of Confusus? How about the Torah? How about the Koran? If we give equal time to EVERY religious text I doubt we would have time for ANYTHING else. Now if it is a PURELY optional course and it gives fair time to EVERY religion then I am o.k. with that.

as a christian, i wouldnt have any problem with that

REALLY? Paganism, Satanism, Native American mysticism?

as long as they are similar in nature and not derogatory to other items in the exibit

 

[Cold Fusion38]

as a christian, i wouldnt have any problem with that

REALLY? Paganism, Satanism, Native American mysticism?

as long as they are similar in nature and not derogatory to other items in the exibit

Well you are a very enlightened man. I doubt very many other Christians would be able to HONESTLY say the same.

 

[Dis]

True, very true.

I assume that you are have a strong faith-based belief structure? If I'm incorrect, I'm sorry. But saying you do, how would you react if you were told to 'swear' in public that you were an atheist? Would you fold your faith or stand up in it?

Simply put, I am what I am, and who I am, and I am not ashamed of it, nor do I care what someone else thinks of what I believe, or do not believe.

If you're talking religious faith, no, I have none.

There's my question then (and maybe to Cold's point somewhat), would it bother you to 'swear to God'? If you have no religious faith (and in that, I'm interpreting agnostic/leaning atheist? Or deist? No need to divulge, I'm not calling out).

I do not have Any religious faith. Though I've said before, I'm like Mulder: I want to believe LOL. But I would (swear) and snicker in the back of my mind. And I have. I laughed, but didn't like it. But there are extenuating circumstances for what I did. I was a cop and lived (and still live) in southwest GA. I was swearing in court on cases I'd worked. Given my job and where I live, not doing so or protesting would probably have had serious repercussions on the outcome of my cases (to the jury/judge).

I've sworn with my hand on a bible many times, and it's never offended me. In fact, my only thought was to get the show on the road and get finished. I wasn't going to hold things up for something I really didn't care about.

Wasn't struck by lightning, either.