Peace At Last

spillmind

Member
Sep 1, 2003
780
13
16
Palo Alto, Ca.
143 and counting

in the middle of the bushie back slappers, it's no suprise this thread hadn't already been started :rolleyes: if you guys could only see yourselves....

Blasts Kill 143 at Iraq Shiite Shrines

By TAREK AL-ISSAWI and HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writers

KARBALA, Iraq - Simultaneous explosions ripped through crowds of worshippers Tuesday at Shiite Muslim shrines in Baghdad and Karbala, killing at least 143 people on the holiest day of the Shiite calendar, a U.S. general said. It was the bloodiest day since the ouster of Saddam Hussein.

Blasts Kill 143 at Iraq Shiite Shrines

A "prime suspect" in the attacks was al-Qaida-linked militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who U.S. officials claim is trying to start a Sunni-Shiite civil war, said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt. In Iran, which lost at least 22 countrymen in the attacks, Iranian vice president Mohammad Ali Abtahi also blamed al-Qaida.

The attacks, a combination of suicide bombings and planted explosives during the Shiite festival of Ashoura, coincided with a shooting attack on Shiite worshippers in Quetta, Pakistan, that killed at least 42 people and wounded more than 150.

Police in the southern city of Basra kept the wave of violence from being even bloodier, arresting four would-be suicide bombing suspects — two women wearing explosive belts during a Shiite procession and two men in connection with a car bomb discovered before it blew up.

Monday night, a bomb was defused in the holiest Shiite city, Najaf, officials said.

Tuesday was the climax of the 10-day Ashoura festival, which marks the killing of Shiite saint Imam Hussein in a 7th century battle. It is the most important period in the Shiite calendar and draws hundreds of thousands of pilgrims in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and other Shiite communities.

The devastation Tuesday included the work of three suicide bombers who set off explosives in and around Baghdad's Kazimiya shrine, killing 58 and wounding 200, Kimmitt told reporters. In Karbala, at least one suicide attacker blew himself up and pre-set explosives detonated, killing 85 and wounding more than 230, he said.

A fourth suicide bomber whose explosives did not detonate was captured at Kazimiya, and six people were arrested in connection with the attack in Karbala, Kimmitt told reporters in Baghdad.

Iraqi police also arrested four would-be suicide bombers in the southern Iraqi city of Basra on Tuesday. Two men — a Syrian and an Iraqi — were arrested after a car bomb was found outside the Seyed Ali al-Musawi Mosque. Later in the day, police arrested two women who were wearing explosives-laden belts as they marched in a procession to mark Ashoura.

The bombings produced a wave of Shiite outrage — much of it directed at U.S. troops in the Iraqi capital. U.S. soldiers who arrived at Kazimiya were attacked by angry crowds throwing stones and garbage, injuring two Americans.

"This is the work of Jews and American occupation forces," blared a loudspeaker outside the Kazimiya shrine. Inside, cleric Hassan Toaima told an angry crowd, "We demand to know who did this so that we can avenge our martyrs."

U.S. intelligence officials have long been concerned about the possibility of militant attacks during Ashoura. Last month, U.S. officials released what they said was a letter by al-Zarqawi outlining a strategy of spectacular attacks on Shiites, aimed at sparking a Sunni-Shiite civil war in order to disrupt U.S. plans to hand over power to the Iraqis on June 30.

Mouwafak al-Rubaie, a Shiite member of the Iraqi Governing Council, said Tuesday's attacks bore al-Zarqawi's fingerprints.

"This is a message from Zarqawi to the Iraqi people and we received the message. It is written in blood now," al-Rubaie told CNN.

Abtahi, Iran's vice president for legal and parliamentary affairs, posted a message on his personal Web site blaming al-Qaida.

"The reactionary al-Qaida terror group reached a conclusion ... that they have two enemies: the United States as the political enemy and Shiites as the ideological enemy," Abtahi said.

At least 22 Iranian pilgrims were killed and 69 others wounded in the explosions in Karbala, Iranian Interior Ministry spokesman Jahanbakhsh Khanjani said. Khanjani said some victims in the Kazimiya explosions in Baghdad also were Iranian, but he had no figures.

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi said the United States and its allies were "responsible for security" for the pilgrims.

Iranians by the tens of thousands have flooded across the common border with Iraq since Saddam's ouster, able to visit the most important Shiite shrines for the first time in decades. Shiism dominates Iran, which is governed by a Shiite theocracy. Religious leaders there have considerable influence in Iraq.

In a show of unity, Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish council representatives appeared before journalists, calling on Iraqis to maintain calm "in order to cheat our enemies of the chance to inflict evil on the nation."

The council declared three days of mourning and was considering delaying the signing of an interim constitution, which had been planned for Thursday, U.S. coalition spokesman Dan Senor said.

Also Tuesday, insurgents threw a grenade into a U.S. Army Humvee as it drove down a Baghdad road, killing one 1st Armored Division soldier and wounding another. The death brings to 548 the number of U.S. service members who have died since the United States launched the Iraq war in March. Most have died since President Bush declared an end to active combat on May 1.

In Karbala, 50 miles south of Baghdad, five large blasts went off shortly after 10 a.m. near the golden-domed shrine of Imam Hussein and another shrine. The explosions hurled bodies in all directions and sent crowds of pilgrims fleeing in panic.

Dead and wounded were loaded onto wooden carts normally used to ferry elderly pilgrims around holy sites. Bodies ripped apart by the force of the blasts lay on the streets.

At about the same time, three explosions went off inside and outside Baghdad's Kazimiya shrine, which contains the tombs of two other saints. Panicked men and women dressed in black fled, screaming and weeping, as ambulances raced to the scene.

Crowds of enraged survivors swarmed nearby hospitals, some blaming Americans for stirring up religious tensions by launching the war, others blaming al-Qaida or Sunni extremists.

Stone-throwing Iraqis attacked U.S. Army medics trying to help wounded at Kazimiya, driving the U.S. troops back into their high-walled compound then trying to storm the gates. Soldiers threw smoke grenades and fired shotguns into the air to drive away the mob.

Before Ashoura, U.S.-led coalition officials said they were increasing security in Shiite areas. Polish troops patrol the Karbala region.

Kimmitt said that while U.S. troops usually set up an "outer cordon" around such high-security events, they stay far away from holy sites like shrines as mosques out of respect for the faithful.

However, Sheik Hamed Khafaf, a spokesman for Iraq's leading Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini, accused American soldiers of not doing enough to improve security.

The Kazimiya blasts went off inside the shrine's ornately tiled walls and outside in a square packed with street vendors catering to pilgrims. The courtyard inside was strewn with torn limbs and picnic baskets. The streets outside were littered by thousands of shoes and sandals belonging to worshippers who had been praying inside.

The Najaf shrine, near where the bomb was defused Monday night, was attacked on Aug. 29 by a massive car bomb that killed more than 85 people, including Shiite leader Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim.


while i concur that these attacks are barbaric and heinous, and i WHOLEHEARTEDLY DISAGREE with them, they are reality.

still waiting for that endgame, guys. and i won't hold my breath.
 
If 143 people were killed in Iraq every day for the next 2 years straight it would still amount to only a very miniscule percentage of the deaths that were caused at the hands of Saddam and his regime.

Does anyone else find it sad that Veruca only comes here to post when there has been reported deaths in Iraq? I think he gets his rocks off when he learns of new deaths he can report.

"Bush lied, Iraq is no safer, more deaths... Bush lied, you bushies are crazy, people are still dying.... AAAHHhhhhhhhhhhh"

Veruca needs a tissue and a cold shower now.
 
If 143 people were killed in Iraq every day for the next 2 years straight it would still amount to only a very miniscule percentage of the deaths that were caused at the hands of Saddam and his regime.

hahahah :laugh: what a load! you're living in the past. if that were the case, we should AND WOULD HAVE ousted him in THE FIRST GULF WAR. you can't argue a point when it suddenly comes convenient.

Does anyone else find it sad that Veruca only comes here to post when there has been reported deaths in Iraq? I think he gets his rocks off when he learns of new deaths he can report.

not everytime, an exaggeration- and everyone can see that i am not CONDONING these attacks, just pointing out what so many of the good ol' boy backslappers selectively ignore. it's really quite simple.

i haven't called anybody names or anything of the sort for quite some time, i've gotten past such trifle nonsense.
 
hahahah what a load! you're living in the past. if that were the case, we should AND WOULD HAVE ousted him in THE FIRST GULF WAR. you can't argue a point when it suddenly comes convenient.

I merely cited the facts. Sorry if this made your "USA bad" story look less meaningful. I'm also sorry that you can't dispute that fact.

not everytime, an exaggeration- and everyone can see that i am not CONDONING these attacks, just pointing out what so many of the good ol' boy backslappers selectively ignore. it's really quite simple.

Yes, you are quite simple.

i haven't called anybody names or anything of the sort for quite some time, i've gotten past such trifle nonsense.

"bushie backslappers" "good 'ol boy backslappers"

You're an idiot, Veruca.
 
Are you saying that the terrorist attacks are GW's Fault??
no. where did i say that?

I think they would of been doing the same regardless of our president!
agreed.

The thing is that we have a president at the moment who has the balls to go after terrorist & fight them!
yeah what a brave, COURAGEOUS man he is! spare me.

I know you are probably one the people who babble make love not war, but there comes a time when your back is against the wall and you really dont have many options!
what exactly are you talking about 'backs to the wall'?

Did you really think we would go into Irag without there being casulaties? It's unfortunate, but that's war! I am not for going to war myself, but in this case it had to be done!
:rolleyes: you people need to deal with the FACTS.

people are still dying, and peace- let alone democracy- is not coming to iraq. you are living in a dream state of utopian ideals where we go in there, restore peace, and leave. if you just take a look at the present state of affairs WITHOUT rose colored glasses, you just might see something. REALITY.
 
Originally posted by Sir Evil
Spilly, what's really the point of continuing this rubbish! The golden egg meter just read a bad egg again! Sorry, down the shoot with you! Remember the incinerators run every other day so you have a 50/50 chance!:laugh:

BWaahaHAhAHahAHAhahaAa :laugh:

Veruca is a rotten egg.
 
jim, your arguements are lacking more and more these days.

"bushie backslappers" "good 'ol boy backslappers"
ok.... is 'bushies' ok? what is an appropriate term to refer to bush supporters? difference is, i am not trying to put you down with such a generalisation, whereas you are trying to simply insult me. :(

I merely cited the facts. Sorry if this made your "USA bad" story look less meaningful. I'm also sorry that you can't dispute that fact.
it's called context, jim. CONTEXT.

i could just as easily bring up our installment of noriega or pinochet, or the number of people WE killed in southeast asia in the last fifty years, but jim, those FACTS just aren't relevant.
 
Originally posted by Sir Evil
As a Matter of fact I do, check you e-mail! By the way have you tried the new sesame jack chicken strips at Friday's?

I did, a little too spicy for my taste.

My new favorite is the boneless spare ribs from Tung Hoy.
 
Sorry, down the shoot with you!
i think you mean 'chute'... like the one jim is drooling over. :laugh:

Hey, Evil, do you have that recipe for the peppercorn steak?
By the way have you tried the new sesame jack chicken strips at Friday's?
I did, a little too spicy for my taste.

Spilly, what's really the point of continuing this rubbish!
i already posted it:

'people are still dying, and peace- let alone democracy- is not coming to iraq. you are living in a dream state of utopian ideals where we go in there, restore peace, and leave. if you just take a look at the present state of affairs WITHOUT rose colored glasses, you just might see something. REALITY.'

shoot the messenger for the truth you people have blocked out for your own demented agenda. don't blame me. are you guys working on your resume' for white house publicists? :laugh:
 
you people need to deal with the FACTS.

people are still dying, and peace- let alone democracy- is not coming to iraq.
Actually, those are opinions unless of course you can predict the future. How do you know that it won't ever stop?

i could just as easily bring up our installment of noriega or pinochet, or the number of people WE killed in southeast asia in the last fifty years, but jim, those FACTS just aren't relevant.
I'm always confused when people mention that. What are you trying to say? That because the US has done that they should not stop doing it and keep supporting people like that? Surely you don't think that. I also don't see how that matters now. That was then and this is now. Things change.

You mentioned southeast Asia. What about all those people the NVA and Viet Cong killed? There was also that war in Korea and you probably have some negative things to say about the US in that war too (even though there is a South Korea because of it and look at all the horrible things North Korea does).
 
Tim,

Well said. If US foreign policy has appeared self-serving at times it's simply because any other policy would be insane and truly unique in history. Involvement in establishing puppet states and our wars in the far and middle east is understood only in the context of our ability to affect events to the degree we as a nation are capable of.

This means that our support of non-democracies, as distatefull as it may be, has been vital in unifying resistance against what we consider to be the greater evils among government, specifically Communism and Islamic Fundamentalism. Our track record throughout history proves we have been consistent in this aspect. I see leftist moralists condemns US behavior in supporting the anti-communist type of non-democracies in Asia and especially Latin America, and have to snigger a bit. In each case a totalitarian communist regime sponsored by our greatest enemy in the cold war was waiting in the wings. Unfortunately there are too many useful idiots who don't bother to read beyond the propaganda of the left and understand the global context of the struggle.

A comment on Iraq and the bombings. Again it's noteworthy how the efforts have swung drastically away from targetting US forces and instead to Iraqi domestic forces. This is a remarkable recognition that our progress to build a new government authority has largely succeeded. Also note the last major bombing (police stations) resulted in a three-fold increase in applications to the police force in that area among Kurds, Shi'ites, and Suuni's alike. I believe we have have passed the hurdle and can expect each attack to further backfire as more Iraqi's begin to view the bombings as an assault on their own soveriegnty and stability.
 
Also note the last major bombing (police stations) resulted in a three-fold increase in applications to the police force in that area among Kurds, Shi'ites, and Suuni's alike.
oh really? i'd like to see that information.

Unfortunately there are too many useful idiots who don't bother to read beyond the propaganda of the left and understand the global context of the struggle.
oh, how you all wish it were so.

while i also agree with most of what comrade asserts, i posted this to further emphasize the continued, consistent insecurity in iraq. until this is eliminated, iraq will have a very hard time trying to generate investors, and a stable business infrastructure.

(GOOD THING WE MADE THEM CONVERT ALL THAT OIL BACK TO DOLLARS)... just a sidenote.

i really don't expect these attacks to stop, and i argue we're screwed either way.

we can stay there indefinitely (save for a afghan-style peacekeeping force), and try to control the region- i think is a bad idea for a number of reasons. the pressure is on to tranfser power on many fronts for legitimate reasons.

but i think that when we do leave, that interim government will collapse. i believe that terrorists will continue to attack human targets, keeping the region totally unstable. while i don't agree with this, and i in fact condemn it, i believe that this a very possible outcome.

in the end, what have we gained? we've ousted saddam, right? was that the tantamount reason and justification? we are yet to see the optimistic american plan unfold. to date, is the gain comprable to the cost?
 
I'm always confused when people mention that. What are you trying to say? That because the US has done that they should not stop doing it and keep supporting people like that? Surely you don't think that. I also don't see how that matters now. That was then and this is now. Things change.

i didn't want to bring it up as a point. if you read the thread earlier, i put those points on the same level as saddam's atrocities 15 years ago. jim seemed to think they were prefectly relevant now that they (suddenly, conveniently) fit our cause.
 
Originally posted by spillmind
i didn't want to bring it up as a point. if you read the thread earlier, i put those points on the same level as saddam's atrocities 15 years ago. jim seemed to think they were prefectly relevant now that they (suddenly, conveniently) fit our cause.

So are you saying that the oppression, deaths, rapes & torture had been nonexistent for 15 years prior to the war?
 
no, i'm not.

but your quote:

If 143 people were killed in Iraq every day for the next 2 years straight it would still amount to only a very miniscule percentage of the deaths that were caused at the hands of Saddam and his regime.

...only fits into the times of his most heinous crimes PRIOR to the gulf war.
 

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