On That End Of Life Clause

Annie

Diamond Member
Nov 22, 2003
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Interesting article in WSJ today:

Jim Towey: The Death Book for Veterans - WSJ.com

The Death Book for Veterans
Ex-soldiers don't need to be told they're a burden to society.

By JIM TOWEY

If President Obama wants to better understand why America's discomfort with end-of-life discussions threatens to derail his health-care reform, he might begin with his own Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). He will quickly discover how government bureaucrats are greasing the slippery slope that can start with cost containment but quickly become a systematic denial of care.

Last year, bureaucrats at the VA's National Center for Ethics in Health Care advocated a 52-page end-of-life planning document, "Your Life, Your Choices." It was first published in 1997 and later promoted as the VA's preferred living will throughout its vast network of hospitals and nursing homes. After the Bush White House took a look at how this document was treating complex health and moral issues, the VA suspended its use. Unfortunately, under President Obama, the VA has now resuscitated "Your Life, Your Choices."

Who is the primary author of this workbook? Dr. Robert Pearlman, chief of ethics evaluation for the center, a man who in 1996 advocated for physician-assisted suicide in Vacco v. Quill before the U.S. Supreme Court and is known for his support of health-care rationing.

"Your Life, Your Choices" presents end-of-life choices in a way aimed at steering users toward predetermined conclusions, much like a political "push poll."
For example, a worksheet on page 21 lists various scenarios and asks users to then decide whether their own life would be "not worth living."

The circumstances listed include ones common among the elderly and disabled: living in a nursing home, being in a wheelchair and not being able to "shake the blues." There is a section which provocatively asks, "Have you ever heard anyone say, 'If I'm a vegetable, pull the plug'?" There also are guilt-inducing scenarios such as "I can no longer contribute to my family's well being," "I am a severe financial burden on my family" and that the vet's situation "causes severe emotional burden for my family."

When the government can steer vulnerable individuals to conclude for themselves that life is not worth living, who needs a death panel?

...


Pamphlet so you can see for yourself:

http://www.rihlp.org/pubs/Your_life_your_choices.pdf
 
Total bullshit.

Doctors have been doing end of life counselling for decades. The only difference is now Medicare doctors would be paid to perform this service.

Death panels, my ass.

A person should have available to him/her what choices they have from staying hooked up forever to saying I want to chose if I prefer to die in my own style.

This is such a crock of partisan shit to play the death panels and euthansia over logical argument of how we can create the best healthcare system for our citizens.

We don't have it now even for those with insurance.

Once more the right wing extremists are running/ruining their party.

If the care in Canada is so bad, why is it that 87% of those surveyed wanted to keep it the way it is.
 
Facts elude the right.

There are no fucking death panels you rock brains.
 
Why does the left hate Americans, especially the old, young, and handicapped? Why do they lie, the way most of us breathe?
 
Facts elude the right.

There are no fucking death panels you rock brains.

Death panels? Seems the left is more wrapped up with it than the right. Palin siad it and the left has not let go of it. If they did, it woulds have died, Instead, they took out anything that implies it...so yes...THANK YOU LEFT for not letting it go.

Grandma? No one is going to pull the plug. Obama is correct. The question is, will it be deemed more appropriate to simply not hook her up to the machine?

And what about emergency situations...such as a financial collapse? Government bankrupcy? No..not far fetched...look at California....look at the deficit we have thanks to the last two admins...look at our national debt...

So pleaase tell me.....what will happen IF there is the need for rationing?
 
rihlp.org???

you want bluecross/blue shield explaining health care reform???

RI Health Literacy - Steering Committee

RAFLMAO!

aren't you ashamed to keep disseminating false information?

but keep fighting health care reform.... good luck if you ever lose your job and have no coverage.... or have a pre-existing condition.....

or get denied payment for medical treatment by an insurance company....

i truly hope none of those things ever happen to you...
 
Oh i see.....having ONE public option will create competiton and keep those evil insurance companies honest...

But...

Opening up state lines and allowing 100's of insurance companies compete with each other in ALL states will not create enough competition to keep them honest.

Oh...I see...One has more of an affect than 100's.

Sure...THAT makes sense.

Stop litening to and regurgitating talking points. It makes you look foolish.

WHy not simply apply logic?
 
Why do you persist in beliving lies that have been soundly disproven?

Why do you just complain about spelling and topics, but never care for your own? Why do you hate the elderly and helpless? Why keep lying?
 
Facts elude the right.

There are no fucking death panels you rock brains.

Death panels? Seems the left is more wrapped up with it than the right. Palin siad it and the left has not let go of it. If they did, it woulds have died, Instead, they took out anything that implies it...so yes...THANK YOU LEFT for not letting it go.

Grandma? No one is going to pull the plug. Obama is correct. The question is, will it be deemed more appropriate to simply not hook her up to the machine?

And what about emergency situations...such as a financial collapse? Government bankrupcy? No..not far fetched...look at California....look at the deficit we have thanks to the last two admins...look at our national debt...

So pleaase tell me.....what will happen IF there is the need for rationing?


What the fuck do you think happens right now when insurance cos call things experimental and dont cover them for people who have paid the cos thousands for decades?


People are dumped from the contracts for getting sick so the insure cos can have 400% profit.

Now go look at the other countries who have the best healthcare in the world ......what kind do they have?
 
Total bullshit.

Doctors have been doing end of life counselling for decades. The only difference is now Medicare doctors would be paid to perform this service.

Can you show evidence that doctors have been doing it for decades free of charge?


A person should have available to him/her what choices they have from staying hooked up forever to saying I want to chose if I prefer to die in my own style.

How about a doctor doing that? I mean didn't you just say they've been doing it for decades?

This is such a crock of partisan shit to play the death panels and euthansia over logical argument of how we can create the best healthcare system for our citizens.

Do you deny that rationing healthcare is part of their proposal?

We don't have it now even for those with insurance.

The majority of Americans are happy with their health care coverage.

Once more the right wing extremists are running/ruining their party.

I guess that why Obama's poll numbers are slipping... fast!

If the care in Canada is so bad, why is it that 87% of those surveyed wanted to keep it the way it is.

Do you have a source for the statistics you just mentioned?
 
Facts elude the right.

There are no fucking death panels you rock brains.

Death panels? Seems the left is more wrapped up with it than the right. Palin siad it and the left has not let go of it. If they did, it woulds have died, Instead, they took out anything that implies it...so yes...THANK YOU LEFT for not letting it go.

Grandma? No one is going to pull the plug. Obama is correct. The question is, will it be deemed more appropriate to simply not hook her up to the machine?

And what about emergency situations...such as a financial collapse? Government bankrupcy? No..not far fetched...look at California....look at the deficit we have thanks to the last two admins...look at our national debt...

So pleaase tell me.....what will happen IF there is the need for rationing?


What the fuck do you think happens right now when insurance cos call things experimental and dont cover them for people who have paid the cos thousands for decades?


People are dumped from the contracts for getting sick so the insure cos can have 400% profit.

Now go look at the other countries who have the best healthcare in the world ......what kind do they have?

Do not get me wrong. We DO need reform. That is not the issue.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world but yes, by far not the best system.

So why not simply open state lines to allow pure competition that ALWAYS results in lower prices....set regulations that forbid the dropping of anyone based on health issues that arise..and eliminate the "pre-exisitng condition" crap....and as for those that lose their jobs, COBRA is working fine....but the cost will be lower once the overall industry lowers the prices of premiums when puyre competiton comes into play.

Why a "public option"? What will it do but cost Americans over a trillion dollars?
 
The only difference is now Medicare doctors would be paid to perform this service.

Death panels, my ass.

ANNIE NEVER MENTIONED DEATH PANELS Straw man alert

Why do Republicans hate the elderly? I've never actually understood this.

:lol: I love ravi's sarcastic posts :D

Facts elude the right.

There are no fucking death panels you rock brains.

ANNIE NEVER MENTIONED DEATH PANELS Straw man alert

Why do you persist in believing lies that have been soundly disprove?

ANNIE NEVER MENTIONED DEATH PANELS Straw man alert

And there are End Of Life measures in hr3200 section 1233....go do a google and read the TEXT of the bill not someone's interpretation. It DOES NOT say death panels but does have end of life counseling.
 
Total bullshit.

Doctors have been doing end of life counselling for decades. The only difference is now Medicare doctors would be paid to perform this service.

Can you show evidence that doctors have been doing it for decades free of charge?


A person should have available to him/her what choices they have from staying hooked up forever to saying I want to chose if I prefer to die in my own style.

How about a doctor doing that? I mean didn't you just say they've been doing it for decades?



Do you deny that rationing healthcare is part of their proposal?



The majority of Americans are happy with their health care coverage.

Once more the right wing extremists are running/ruining their party.

I guess that why Obama's poll numbers are slipping... fast!

If the care in Canada is so bad, why is it that 87% of those surveyed wanted to keep it the way it is.

Do you have a source for the statistics you just mentioned?

Jeez....dont start throwing basic logic and truth into the mix. It will confuse them.

Stick to the talking points pal...it is easier for them top comprehend.
 
Why does the left hate Americans, especially the old, young, and handicapped? Why do they lie, the way most of us breathe?

the better question is why do the left attack you each time you broach the subject.. it's not like they have facts to dispute what you are suggesting. All they and their leaders can do is say it is a lie.. then they removed the "lie" from their legislation. They cannot or will not explain the 500 billion dollar proposed cuts to medicare and name who the cuts would affect, they cannot or will not explain the two eugenicists czars, and finally they cannot or will not explain the voting down of the Heller amendment.
 
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Total bullshit.

Doctors have been doing end of life counselling for decades. The only difference is now Medicare doctors would be paid to perform this service.

Can you show evidence that doctors have been doing it for decades free of charge?




How about a doctor doing that? I mean didn't you just say they've been doing it for decades?



Do you deny that rationing healthcare is part of their proposal?



The majority of Americans are happy with their health care coverage.



I guess that why Obama's poll numbers are slipping... fast!

If the care in Canada is so bad, why is it that 87% of those surveyed wanted to keep it the way it is.

Do you have a source for the statistics you just mentioned?

Jeez....dont start throwing basic logic and truth into the mix. It will confuse them.

Stick to the talking points pal...it is easier for them top comprehend.

I agree. My parents were the ones that brought up 'end of life' discussion, while still healthy and in their 60's. They thought through what they wanted, under which sort of scenarios. Had living wills, including appointing my brother and myself medical power of attorney. If one had become sick before that time, the other would have made whatever decisions necessary.

My parents did discuss with doctors at each stage when health started to go down. My father chose to refuse radiation, over objections from his doctor. For the reasons my dad gave, which had to do with 'quality of life' at his age and condition, my brother and I concurred.

We dealt with hospice care for my mom, you know, what's supposed to be 6 months or so? Went on 3 years. Whenever their was a 'crisis' we took the position of pain relief and least intrusions possible.

I and probably most are NOT against talking and allowing people to make their choices wherever possible, BUT that should not be stacking the deck for old people, handicapped people, or for instance wounded warriors to see themselves as 'burdening others' to the point they want to die.
 
Death panels? Seems the left is more wrapped up with it than the right. Palin siad it and the left has not let go of it. If they did, it woulds have died, Instead, they took out anything that implies it...so yes...THANK YOU LEFT for not letting it go.

Grandma? No one is going to pull the plug. Obama is correct. The question is, will it be deemed more appropriate to simply not hook her up to the machine?

And what about emergency situations...such as a financial collapse? Government bankrupcy? No..not far fetched...look at California....look at the deficit we have thanks to the last two admins...look at our national debt...

So pleaase tell me.....what will happen IF there is the need for rationing?






What the fuck do you think happens right now when insurance cos call things experimental and dont cover them for people who have paid the cos thousands for decades?


People are dumped from the contracts for getting sick so the insure cos can have 400% profit.

Now go look at the other countries who have the best healthcare in the world ......what kind do they have?

Do not get me wrong. We DO need reform. That is not the issue.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world but yes, by far not the best system.

So why not simply open state lines to allow pure competition that ALWAYS results in lower prices....set regulations that forbid the dropping of anyone based on health issues that arise..and eliminate the "pre-exisitng condition" crap....and as for those that lose their jobs, COBRA is working fine....but the cost will be lower once the overall industry lowers the prices of premiums when puyre competiton comes into play.

Why a "public option"? What will it do but cost Americans over a trillion dollars?


The same companies will still be running the show huh?

The public option allows the American people to have the choices they wish to have. Hey if you dont like the public option dont join. I and many other Americans want it. You dont get to deside we should not have the choice.

The money you are so concerned with is already bleeding to the corps to give them 400% profit. With the public option the Money the corps are now getting from me will go to the public option instead.not a penny will go to profit. that makes my choice much cheaper. Think how much we waste lining the pockets of wealthy men.
 

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