On That End Of Life Clause

[Oldandtired]

facts dont much matter to those who oppose this bill.

The profits they will lose if there is a public option are all that matter to them.

It still amazes me they fools they can gather to do their bidding.

What do you think of the IRS clause, you know, sec 401? You don't think that will create some problems for you?

Truth matters did not read the bill...so 401 means squat to him.

And what about congress' little clause that exempts thewm from all provsions set forth in the bill.....why is that in there?

Oh yeah....as Obama said for his sheep to believe..."that is the point! The public option is as good as what congress has>".....really? SO I again ask....why are they exempt from having to opt in then?

 

[Otter_Creek]

facts dont much matter to those who oppose this bill.

The profits they will lose if there is a public option are all that matter to them.

It still amazes me they fools they can gather to do their bidding.

Perhaps you should try removing your head from your ass.
I suffer from multiple mortals, my wife and I payed for insurance for 15 years before I became disabled. Now BCBS has saved my life many times over and my wife has payed it all including many monthly meds and copay's.
Fuck you if you think you are going to take my insurance that we payed for and deserve for being responsible for our own future.

 

[Oldandtired]

a public insurace option is not ownership of the healthcare system.

You are obviously naive to how pure competition works.

Insert a company that can do what it pleases, have no concern about profit, have no concern about loss, and have unlimited capital forever...and no one else will survive.

And when you have only ONE company...it is a monopoly....and the owner of that monopoly is the owner of the industry.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The same companies will still be running the show huh?

The public option allows the American people to have the choices they wish to have. Hey if you dont like the public option dont join. I and many other Americans want it. You dont get to deside we should not have the choice.

The money you are so concerned with is already bleeding to the corps to give them 400% profit. With the public option the Money the corps are now getting from me will go to the public option instead.not a penny will go to profit. that makes my choice much cheaper. Think how much we waste lining the pockets of wealthy men.

Seeing as you reverted back to talking points, it is clear you have not spent the time reading ANY of HR3200.....I suggest you do.

Debating with you until you do is futile...as your points are so inaccurate, we will never be able to have a fair debate.

Read the bill my friend...I did.

LOL...If I dont like the public option, dont join.....Please....read the bill. If I fart, I am forced to join.

How can someone who has not read the bill debate the bill? It makes you look moronic.

Please go get the quote from the bill that states "if you fart you must sign up for the public option"?

That's your counter argument to what he just said??? I've heard those on the left have no brains and you're proving that what I've heard is true.

 

[edthecynic]

I'm confused on the whole 'end-of-life' stuff in the bill(s).

If all that wording was just to make sure that end-of-life counseling was paid for, why did they completely remove the provision? Why didn't they just reword it in simple, non-ambiguous language?

Because the language was not "ambiguous" to begin with.

LimpBoy found this out when he foolishly decided to read the bill for the first time, and over the air no less. He had to stop before he could finish the second sentence and then "paraphrase" his own lie.

The Bottom Line on "Death Panels"
August 17, 2009
RUSH: And I've got section 1233 here. We had the call from the guy in Tulsa who said you're misrepresenting and maligning the death panel business. Section 1233, House bill, "Advanced Care Planning," excerpts, pages 424 to 430. I've got some of this stuff highlighted. Here's section 4E, an explanation... Well, it's not section 4E. It's line four: "An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title. A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for estates described in this clause is a program that ensures such orders are..."

LimpBoy stops reading the bill here and then "paraphrases" what he claims comes next.

RUSH: It goes on and on. When you go through this, it sure sounds like a government panel is going to be deciding a lot of stuff -- and it will! There's no way around this.

Here's what ACTUALLY came after LimpBoy stopped reading the bill for the first time. GEE no "government" (DEATH) panel.

"A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that— ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State; distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional’s authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment; provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment"

And here the bill defines his fictitious "government" (DEATH) panel.

"A practitioner described in this paragraph is—(A) a physician (as defined in subsection 7; and (B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments."

So the BILL in Section 1233 pages 424 to 430 allows for the reimbursement of the INDIVIDUAL when he VOLUNTARILY gives HIS ORDERS for LIFE SUSTAINING treatments to the PRACTITIONER that the State is required to recognize and OBEY.

 

[Oldandtired]

Go look at the Rs who are against this bill.

what is their realtionship to the insurance cos?

ALL "R's" are against this bill....and many "D's" are as well.

Curious....do you have any reason why this bill has not passed yet?

Honestly...Obama wanted it out oif congress by the end of July....do you know why it did not happen?

 

[Oldandtired]

Seeing as you reverted back to talking points, it is clear you have not spent the time reading ANY of HR3200.....I suggest you do.

Debating with you until you do is futile...as your points are so inaccurate, we will never be able to have a fair debate.

Read the bill my friend...I did.

LOL...If I dont like the public option, dont join.....Please....read the bill. If I fart, I am forced to join.

How can someone who has not read the bill debate the bill? It makes you look moronic.

Please go get the quote from the bill that states "if you fart you must sign up for the public option"?

That's your counter argument to what he just said??? I've heard those on the left have no brains and you're proving that what I've heard is true.

If I said "flatulance" he may have truly believed that I thought it was in the bill!

 

[Truthmatters]

You claim you know the entire bill and spout nothing but crap.

 

[Oldandtired]

facts dont much matter to those who oppose this bill.

The profits they will lose if there is a public option are all that matter to them.

It still amazes me they fools they can gather to do their bidding.

Perhaps you should try removing your head from your ass.
I suffer from multiple mortals, my wife and I payed for insurance for 15 years before I became disabled. Now BCBS has saved my life many times over and my wife has payed it all including many monthly meds and copay's.
Fuck you if you think you are going to take my insurance that we payed for and deserve for being responsible for our own future.

How dare you brag about personal responsibility.

How dare you diveret from the talking points and discuss real life experiences.

I am still looking for a pediatrician that actually performs the suirgery as Obama had the world believe.....or the Persoanl physician that actuaqlly chops off feet for a profit.

PEDIATRICIANS LOSE REVENUE WHEN THE SURGEON PERFORMS SURGERY ASSHOLE!

A greedy poediatirician would prefer the kid get sick every 3 months....

Heck...with the legal system we have....I gotta believe such unscrupulous actions would have been all over the news over the past 40 years.

Instead, we hear about mal pracitce suits where someone winds up with a scar on their toe following foot surgery and sues for millions...and settles for millions.

 

[Annie]

You claim you know the entire bill and spout nothing but crap.

Talking to yourself so soon? Maybe a longer rest will help?

 

[Oldandtired]

You claim you know the entire bill and spout nothing but crap.

You kidding me? I know 1/10 of the bill at best.....most of it is crap that makes little sense to me....But at least I attempted to read it....and yes....I must question that clasue...on page 800 or somewhere around there that exempts all members of congress from the provisions set forth in the bill.

Why is that in there?


Please enlighten me.

 

[Truthmatters]

First prove its there

 

[elvis]

You claim you know the entire bill and spout nothing but crap.

You kidding me? I know 1/10 of the bill at best.....most of it is crap that makes little sense to me....But at least I attempted to read it....and yes....I must question that clasue...on page 800 or somewhere around there that exempts all members of congress from the provisions set forth in the bill.

Why is that in there?


Please enlighten me.

Don't waste time on Truth doesn't matter. she has been the laughing stock of this entire board for years.
I guess she and Chris share that honor, now that I think about it.

 

[Truthmatters]

still NOTHING to offer in the disscusion drewgy

 

[Oldandtired]

First prove its there

Nope. Dont need to.

I dont care if you believe it or not.

Sadly, you dont seem to care either.

Even sadder.....Congress admits it is in there simply using the excuse that they are exempt becuase they have an identical plan already.....but no exp[lanation as to why they are exempt form the PROVISIONS forcing one INTO the plan.

You have not responded tro the business side of this debate.

You have not responded to anything that you know is factual.

You simply want to argue things you know nothing about.

You are not worthy of my time anymore. This debate with you is over. Read the bill...THEN get back to me....and maybe you can explain it to me becuase most of it is gibberish to me.

 

[Newby]

Death panels? Seems the left is more wrapped up with it than the right. Palin siad it and the left has not let go of it. If they did, it woulds have died, Instead, they took out anything that implies it...so yes...THANK YOU LEFT for not letting it go.

Grandma? No one is going to pull the plug. Obama is correct. The question is, will it be deemed more appropriate to simply not hook her up to the machine?

And what about emergency situations...such as a financial collapse? Government bankrupcy? No..not far fetched...look at California....look at the deficit we have thanks to the last two admins...look at our national debt...

So pleaase tell me.....what will happen IF there is the need for rationing?

What the fuck do you think happens right now when insurance cos call things experimental and dont cover them for people who have paid the cos thousands for decades?


People are dumped from the contracts for getting sick so the insure cos can have 400% profit.

Now go look at the other countries who have the best healthcare in the world ......what kind do they have?

Do not get me wrong. We DO need reform. That is not the issue.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world but yes, by far not the best system.

So why not simply open state lines to allow pure competition that ALWAYS results in lower prices....set regulations that forbid the dropping of anyone based on health issues that arise..and eliminate the "pre-exisitng condition" crap....and as for those that lose their jobs, COBRA is working fine....but the cost will be lower once the overall industry lowers the prices of premiums when puyre competiton comes into play.

Why a "public option"? What will it do but cost Americans over a trillion dollars?

No one ever mentions how the insurance companies are not allowed to compete across state lines, which keeps prices artificially inflated. I'd like to see that addressed by our wonderful politicians.

 

[elvis]

still NOTHING to offer in the disscusion drewgy

nothing to offer you, young devotchka.

 

[Oldandtired]

What the fuck do you think happens right now when insurance cos call things experimental and dont cover them for people who have paid the cos thousands for decades?


People are dumped from the contracts for getting sick so the insure cos can have 400% profit.

Now go look at the other countries who have the best healthcare in the world ......what kind do they have?

Do not get me wrong. We DO need reform. That is not the issue.

We have the BEST healthcare in the world but yes, by far not the best system.

So why not simply open state lines to allow pure competition that ALWAYS results in lower prices....set regulations that forbid the dropping of anyone based on health issues that arise..and eliminate the "pre-exisitng condition" crap....and as for those that lose their jobs, COBRA is working fine....but the cost will be lower once the overall industry lowers the prices of premiums when puyre competiton comes into play.

Why a "public option"? What will it do but cost Americans over a trillion dollars?

No one ever mentions how the insurance companies are not allowed to compete across state lines, which keeps prices artificially inflated. I'd like to see that addressed by our wonderful politicians.

Some have tried to address it....but you know how Pelosi is.....my way or there is the door.

 

[Truthmatters]

How is allowing the current companies to compete accrossed state lines going to end there ability to drop who the fuck they want to drop when they start costing the insurance company to much?

Dont you guys realize they will collude with each other to keep the prices high?

 

[edthecynic]

You claim you know the entire bill and spout nothing but crap.

You kidding me? I know 1/10 of the bill at best.....most of it is crap that makes little sense to me....But at least I attempted to read it....and yes....I must question that clasue...on page 800 or somewhere around there that exempts all members of congress from the provisions set forth in the bill.

Why is that in there?


Please enlighten me.

I did a search of the bill using the keywords "congress" and "exempt" and got zero hits.

Here's pg 800

800
affecting payments made before such date under a State 1
plan under title XIX of the Social Security Act for grad-2
uate medical education. 3
Subtitle F—Waste, Fraud, and 4
Abuse 5
SEC. 1751. HEALTH-CARE ACQUIRED CONDITIONS. 6
(a) MEDICAIDNON-PAYMENTFORCERTAINHEALTH 7
CARE-ACQUIRED CONDITIONS.—Section 1903(i) of the 8
Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1396b(i)) is amended— 9
(1) by striking ‘‘or’’ at the end of paragraph 10
(23); 11
(2) by striking the period at the end of para-12
graph (24) and inserting ‘‘; or’’; and 13
(3) by inserting after paragraph (24) the fol-14
lowing new paragraph: 15
‘‘(25) with respect to amounts expended for 16
services related to the presence of a condition that 17
could be identified by a secondary diagnostic code 18
described in section 1886(d)(4)(D)(iv) and for any 19
health care acquired condition determined as a non- 20
covered service under title XVIII.’’. 21
(b) APPLICATIONTOCHIP.—Section 2107(e)(1)(G) 22
of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1397gg(e)(1)(G)) is amended by 23
striking ‘‘and (17)’’ and inserting ‘‘(17), and (25)’’. 24