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Non-believers be honest
Non-believers be honest
There is no such thing as a non-believer, as that implies there is some fact of faith being rejected, which is clearly not the case. Indeed, theists are the aberration, as the bane of organized religion is a very recent development less than 10,000 years B.P.
Thomas Jefferson said:I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not forgotten. On the contrary, it is because I have reflected on it, that I find much more time necessary for it than I can at present dispose of. I have a view of the subject which ought to displease neither the rational Christian nor Deists, and would reconcile many to a character they have too hastily rejected. I do not know that it would reconcile the _genus irritabile vatum_ who are all in arms against me. Their hostility is on too interesting ground to be softened. The delusion into which the X. Y. Z. plot shewed it possible to push the people; the successful experiment made under the prevalence of that delusion on the clause of the constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity thro' the U. S.; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians & Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me, forging conversations for me with Mazzei, Bishop Madison, &c., which are absolute falsehoods without a circumstance of truth to rest on; falsehoods, too, of which I acquit Mazzei & Bishop Madison, for they are men of truth.
Why all the negative new threads concerning Christianity and your creator Jesus ?
Why do you spend so much time discussing a myth as you claim ?
Why do you not concern yourself with other religous belief systems ?
Why all the negative new threads concerning Christianity and your creator Jesus ?
Why do you spend so much time discussing a myth as you claim ?
Why do you not concern yourself with other religous belief systems ?
Why all the negative new threads concerning Christianity and your creator Jesus ?
Why do you spend so much time discussing a myth as you claim ?
Why do you not concern yourself with other religous belief systems ?
1)I consider my mother and father as my creators. My Father provided the sperm, which is the spark to give life to the ovary. My Mother provided the flesh and blood and place to develop. What did your Jesus provide again? And what proof did you have for that, or is this another claim that I must believe in to save myself from the hellfires of Dante?
2)I talk about Sumerian/Babylonian and Greek Myths as well and make comparisons to their Western counterparts..Also, I am in the process of reading some Buddhists lit and so forth. But I admit, I don't really talk about it much on the board.
3)Because the other religions, minus Islam, tend to promote some degree of understanding and tolerance of differing people.
Islam and Christianity tends to suffer from an inherited arrogance in their absolute belief of their 'truth', command people to obey their commandments and the orders from their god/prophet/wanttobeprophet-apostles/religious teachers. Add that to my dislike of an imposed authority and I tend to criticize those religions and the cults that spring from their models..
I'm sure he includes me in that category, Clay, so he's not talking just about atheists.
I can speak only for myself. I am always careful to distinguish between dogmatic and non-dogmatic Christians. There are a good many Christians in this country who:
1) Do not believe in a Hell for unbelievers;
2) Do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible; and
3) Do not believe that Christianity is the exclusive source of the truth.
So I always try to make it clear that what I'm against is dogmatism, not Christianity. If I make a particular target of Christian dogmatism rather than that found in other religions, which is often just as bad, it's because this is America, a majority Christian nation, where Christian dogmatists are a serious problem, and, say, Muslim dogmatists only become difficult when they fly airplanes into buildings.
Why oppose dogmatism? I can give you Jefferson's answer: "For I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Might be worthwhile to take a look at the full letter which Mr. Jefferson wrote to my collateral ancestor, Dr. Benjamin Rush: Thomas Jefferson: I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God, 1800
Thomas Jefferson said:I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not forgotten. On the contrary, it is because I have reflected on it, that I find much more time necessary for it than I can at present dispose of. I have a view of the subject which ought to displease neither the rational Christian nor Deists, and would reconcile many to a character they have too hastily rejected. I do not know that it would reconcile the _genus irritabile vatum_ who are all in arms against me. Their hostility is on too interesting ground to be softened. The delusion into which the X. Y. Z. plot shewed it possible to push the people; the successful experiment made under the prevalence of that delusion on the clause of the constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity thro' the U. S.; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians & Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me, forging conversations for me with Mazzei, Bishop Madison, &c., which are absolute falsehoods without a circumstance of truth to rest on; falsehoods, too, of which I acquit Mazzei & Bishop Madison, for they are men of truth.
Dogmatism is the enemy of truth, because it is the enemy of thought and discovery. It is also, in the end, the enemy of God, for God is discovered, not taught, found, not imposed, and awakened within, not communicated from without. Reason enough to oppose it, I think.
Why all the negative new threads concerning Christianity and your creator Jesus ?
Why do you spend so much time discussing a myth as you claim ?
Why do you not concern yourself with other religous belief systems ?
Because some people afraid Hell and want to undermine its believe there are neither Hell nor afterlife.
Why all the negative new threads concerning Christianity and your creator Jesus ?
Why do you spend so much time discussing a myth as you claim ?
Why do you not concern yourself with other religous belief systems ?
1)I consider my mother and father as my creators. My Father provided the sperm, which is the spark to give life to the ovary. My Mother provided the flesh and blood and place to develop. What did your Jesus provide again? And what proof did you have for that, or is this another claim that I must believe in to save myself from the hellfires of Dante?
2)I talk about Sumerian/Babylonian and Greek Myths as well and make comparisons to their Western counterparts..Also, I am in the process of reading some Buddhists lit and so forth. But I admit, I don't really talk about it much on the board.
3)Because the other religions, minus Islam, tend to promote some degree of understanding and tolerance of differing people.
Islam and Christianity tends to suffer from an inherited arrogance in their absolute belief of their 'truth', command people to obey their commandments and the orders from their god/prophet/wanttobeprophet-apostles/religious teachers. Add that to my dislike of an imposed authority and I tend to criticize those religions and the cults that spring from their models..
Where did the ability to reproduce come from ?
Why do you not discuss religions other then Christianity ?
You don't believe Christians are tolerant ,why ?
If there is a creator would there only be one way to God ?
Why all the negative new threads concerning Christianity and your creator Jesus ?
Why do you spend so much time discussing a myth as you claim ?
Why do you not concern yourself with other religous belief systems ?
Why all the negative new threads concerning Christianity and your creator Jesus ?
Why do you spend so much time discussing a myth as you claim ?
Why do you not concern yourself with other religous belief systems ?
1)I consider my mother and father as my creators. My Father provided the sperm, which is the spark to give life to the ovary. My Mother provided the flesh and blood and place to develop. What did your Jesus provide again? And what proof did you have for that, or is this another claim that I must believe in to save myself from the hellfires of Dante?
2)I talk about Sumerian/Babylonian and Greek Myths as well and make comparisons to their Western counterparts..Also, I am in the process of reading some Buddhists lit and so forth. But I admit, I don't really talk about it much on the board.
3)Because the other religions, minus Islam, tend to promote some degree of understanding and tolerance of differing people.
Islam and Christianity tends to suffer from an inherited arrogance in their absolute belief of their 'truth', command people to obey their commandments and the orders from their god/prophet/wanttobeprophet-apostles/religious teachers. Add that to my dislike of an imposed authority and I tend to criticize those religions and the cults that spring from their models..
Where did the ability to reproduce come from ?
Why do you not discuss religions other then Christianity ?
You don't believe Christians are tolerant ,why ?
If there is a creator would there only be one way to God ?
1. It could have come from a creator. It could have come from evolution. I don't claim to know, but I do claim to know that you don't know.
2. I discuss other religions whenever the topic arises. I've had several posts about my problems with Islam's subjugation of women. I don't think it's that people are targeting Christianity for attack here at USMB so much as it's that Christianity is the most common religious target available on this board. In my months here, thus far, I can name exactly -1- Muslim that posts regularly on the political shit. To my knowledge, I've seen no input from any obvious Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, or Wicca practitioners. If they choose to weigh in on some political issues on which I have an opinion, maybe then the topics will come up. For now, they don't. You know who does? Christians. Lots of Christians on this board arguing the morality of many of the issues under discussion. I don't tell them that the Hindu philosophy's take on a matter is incorrect because they never put it out there. In an environment where your religion or point of view is the one most vocal, it will also be the one most often argued against. Learn to deal or stop citing the bible.
3. I don't believe that ALL Christians are intolerant, but some of them are and some of their dogma encourages it. Look at the 10 commandments. These are the absolute backbone rules of the religion, the breaking of which are among the highest level of sin, and include not putting false Gods/idols above Christ. Think about that. Among the most essential tenets of Christianity exists the implication that believers in any other religion are destined for an eternity in the lake of fire. Let's see, what else. . . there's something in there along the lines of any man who lays with another man shall surely be put to death. Suffer not a witch to live. These are not messages of tolerance. Jesus preached tolerance, I'll give you that. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, love thy neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged. . . Messiah or not, I wish I could shake Jesus's hand and thank him for sharing his wisdom with a species who never seems to be content to mind their own business. That said, the bible also contains a lot of shit that's as intolerant as you can possibly get. When your dogma preaches intolerance, accusations that practitioners of your faith are intolerant should come as no surprise.
4. Depends on that creator. I will admit, however, that it's hard to imagine a creator that loves us, but doesn't give us any evidence of his true identity, yet expects us to guess at it. And if we guess incorrectly, he sentences us to an eternity of torment. Sorry if Christians take offense, but that paints a portrait of God wherein he's not only incredibly insecure, but also a complete dick to those he claims to love. The concept of Original Sin doesn't help his case, either. Why would a God whose wisdom is infinite blame me for the sins of Adam and Eve? How could he possibly assign responsibility to me for an event over which I had -ZERO- control? Draw me a flow chart of why the fuckup in the Garden of Eden was my fault. This is where I tend to laugh at Christian Republicans. How can you sign off on original sin out of one side of your mouth, and out the other side of your mouth say that reparations for slavery would be an injustice? It's either one or the other. . . you're either responsible for the sins of those before you or you're not responsible for the sins of those before you. It can't be both.
Why all the negative new threads concerning Christianity and your creator Jesus ?
Why do you spend so much time discussing a myth as you claim ?
Why do you not concern yourself with other religous belief systems ?
1. He is not my creator
2. Christianity is just like any other religion.
3. Because I like to think with reason and logic.
There is only one truth.
You mean the people who were outside of the garden were not sinners ?Where did the ability to reproduce come from ?
Why do you not discuss religions other then Christianity ?
You don't believe Christians are tolerant ,why ?
If there is a creator would there only be one way to God ?
1. It could have come from a creator. It could have come from evolution. I don't claim to know, but I do claim to know that you don't know.
2. I discuss other religions whenever the topic arises. I've had several posts about my problems with Islam's subjugation of women. I don't think it's that people are targeting Christianity for attack here at USMB so much as it's that Christianity is the most common religious target available on this board. In my months here, thus far, I can name exactly -1- Muslim that posts regularly on the political shit. To my knowledge, I've seen no input from any obvious Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, or Wicca practitioners. If they choose to weigh in on some political issues on which I have an opinion, maybe then the topics will come up. For now, they don't. You know who does? Christians. Lots of Christians on this board arguing the morality of many of the issues under discussion. I don't tell them that the Hindu philosophy's take on a matter is incorrect because they never put it out there. In an environment where your religion or point of view is the one most vocal, it will also be the one most often argued against. Learn to deal or stop citing the bible.
3. I don't believe that ALL Christians are intolerant, but some of them are and some of their dogma encourages it. Look at the 10 commandments. These are the absolute backbone rules of the religion, the breaking of which are among the highest level of sin, and include not putting false Gods/idols above Christ. Think about that. Among the most essential tenets of Christianity exists the implication that believers in any other religion are destined for an eternity in the lake of fire. Let's see, what else. . . there's something in there along the lines of any man who lays with another man shall surely be put to death. Suffer not a witch to live. These are not messages of tolerance. Jesus preached tolerance, I'll give you that. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, love thy neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged. . . Messiah or not, I wish I could shake Jesus's hand and thank him for sharing his wisdom with a species who never seems to be content to mind their own business. That said, the bible also contains a lot of shit that's as intolerant as you can possibly get. When your dogma preaches intolerance, accusations that practitioners of your faith are intolerant should come as no surprise.
4. Depends on that creator. I will admit, however, that it's hard to imagine a creator that loves us, but doesn't give us any evidence of his true identity, yet expects us to guess at it. And if we guess incorrectly, he sentences us to an eternity of torment. Sorry if Christians take offense, but that paints a portrait of God wherein he's not only incredibly insecure, but also a complete dick to those he claims to love. The concept of Original Sin doesn't help his case, either. Why would a God whose wisdom is infinite blame me for the sins of Adam and Eve? How could he possibly assign responsibility to me for an event over which I had -ZERO- control? Draw me a flow chart of why the fuckup in the Garden of Eden was my fault. This is where I tend to laugh at Christian Republicans. How can you sign off on original sin out of one side of your mouth, and out the other side of your mouth say that reparations for slavery would be an injustice? It's either one or the other. . . you're either responsible for the sins of those before you or you're not responsible for the sins of those before you. It can't be both.
There is plenty of evidence for the creator.
Look everyone sins.
The garden is where it started.
All genetics have been passed on from the first human pair right down til now.
I'm sure he includes me in that category, Clay, so he's not talking just about atheists.
I can speak only for myself. I am always careful to distinguish between dogmatic and non-dogmatic Christians. There are a good many Christians in this country who:
1) Do not believe in a Hell for unbelievers;
2) Do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible; and
3) Do not believe that Christianity is the exclusive source of the truth.
So I always try to make it clear that what I'm against is dogmatism, not Christianity. If I make a particular target of Christian dogmatism rather than that found in other religions, which is often just as bad, it's because this is America, a majority Christian nation, where Christian dogmatists are a serious problem, and, say, Muslim dogmatists only become difficult when they fly airplanes into buildings.
Why oppose dogmatism? I can give you Jefferson's answer: "For I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Might be worthwhile to take a look at the full letter which Mr. Jefferson wrote to my collateral ancestor, Dr. Benjamin Rush: Thomas Jefferson: I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God, 1800
Thomas Jefferson said:I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not forgotten. On the contrary, it is because I have reflected on it, that I find much more time necessary for it than I can at present dispose of. I have a view of the subject which ought to displease neither the rational Christian nor Deists, and would reconcile many to a character they have too hastily rejected. I do not know that it would reconcile the _genus irritabile vatum_ who are all in arms against me. Their hostility is on too interesting ground to be softened. The delusion into which the X. Y. Z. plot shewed it possible to push the people; the successful experiment made under the prevalence of that delusion on the clause of the constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity thro' the U. S.; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians & Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me, forging conversations for me with Mazzei, Bishop Madison, &c., which are absolute falsehoods without a circumstance of truth to rest on; falsehoods, too, of which I acquit Mazzei & Bishop Madison, for they are men of truth.
Dogmatism is the enemy of truth, because it is the enemy of thought and discovery. It is also, in the end, the enemy of God, for God is discovered, not taught, found, not imposed, and awakened within, not communicated from without. Reason enough to oppose it, I think.
There is only one truth.
Where did the ability to reproduce come from ?
Why do you not discuss religions other then Christianity ?
You don't believe Christians are tolerant ,why ?
If there is a creator would there only be one way to God ?
1. It could have come from a creator. It could have come from evolution. I don't claim to know, but I do claim to know that you don't know.
2. I discuss other religions whenever the topic arises. I've had several posts about my problems with Islam's subjugation of women. I don't think it's that people are targeting Christianity for attack here at USMB so much as it's that Christianity is the most common religious target available on this board. In my months here, thus far, I can name exactly -1- Muslim that posts regularly on the political shit. To my knowledge, I've seen no input from any obvious Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, or Wicca practitioners. If they choose to weigh in on some political issues on which I have an opinion, maybe then the topics will come up. For now, they don't. You know who does? Christians. Lots of Christians on this board arguing the morality of many of the issues under discussion. I don't tell them that the Hindu philosophy's take on a matter is incorrect because they never put it out there. In an environment where your religion or point of view is the one most vocal, it will also be the one most often argued against. Learn to deal or stop citing the bible.
3. I don't believe that ALL Christians are intolerant, but some of them are and some of their dogma encourages it. Look at the 10 commandments. These are the absolute backbone rules of the religion, the breaking of which are among the highest level of sin, and include not putting false Gods/idols above Christ. Think about that. Among the most essential tenets of Christianity exists the implication that believers in any other religion are destined for an eternity in the lake of fire. Let's see, what else. . . there's something in there along the lines of any man who lays with another man shall surely be put to death. Suffer not a witch to live. These are not messages of tolerance. Jesus preached tolerance, I'll give you that. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, love thy neighbor, judge not lest ye be judged. . . Messiah or not, I wish I could shake Jesus's hand and thank him for sharing his wisdom with a species who never seems to be content to mind their own business. That said, the bible also contains a lot of shit that's as intolerant as you can possibly get. When your dogma preaches intolerance, accusations that practitioners of your faith are intolerant should come as no surprise.
4. Depends on that creator. I will admit, however, that it's hard to imagine a creator that loves us, but doesn't give us any evidence of his true identity, yet expects us to guess at it. And if we guess incorrectly, he sentences us to an eternity of torment. Sorry if Christians take offense, but that paints a portrait of God wherein he's not only incredibly insecure, but also a complete dick to those he claims to love. The concept of Original Sin doesn't help his case, either. Why would a God whose wisdom is infinite blame me for the sins of Adam and Eve? How could he possibly assign responsibility to me for an event over which I had -ZERO- control? Draw me a flow chart of why the fuckup in the Garden of Eden was my fault. This is where I tend to laugh at Christian Republicans. How can you sign off on original sin out of one side of your mouth, and out the other side of your mouth say that reparations for slavery would be an injustice? It's either one or the other. . . you're either responsible for the sins of those before you or you're not responsible for the sins of those before you. It can't be both.
There is plenty of evidence for the creator.
Look everyone sins.
The garden is where it started.
All genetics have been passed on from the first human pair right down til now.
I'm sure he includes me in that category, Clay, so he's not talking just about atheists.
I can speak only for myself. I am always careful to distinguish between dogmatic and non-dogmatic Christians. There are a good many Christians in this country who:
1) Do not believe in a Hell for unbelievers;
2) Do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible; and
3) Do not believe that Christianity is the exclusive source of the truth.
So I always try to make it clear that what I'm against is dogmatism, not Christianity. If I make a particular target of Christian dogmatism rather than that found in other religions, which is often just as bad, it's because this is America, a majority Christian nation, where Christian dogmatists are a serious problem, and, say, Muslim dogmatists only become difficult when they fly airplanes into buildings.
Why oppose dogmatism? I can give you Jefferson's answer: "For I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Might be worthwhile to take a look at the full letter which Mr. Jefferson wrote to my collateral ancestor, Dr. Benjamin Rush: Thomas Jefferson: I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God, 1800
Dogmatism is the enemy of truth, because it is the enemy of thought and discovery. It is also, in the end, the enemy of God, for God is discovered, not taught, found, not imposed, and awakened within, not communicated from without. Reason enough to oppose it, I think.
There is only one truth.
Now you are nearing the level of intolerance that you are complaining about.
Actually, you may have the right answer, but chances are, your "truth" is not the "truth"
I was raised Christian but I suppose I am now closer to what one would call a Deist. I am not so arrogant as to think my way is the one way to a spiritual life. My "church" is the seat of my motorcycle at 100 MPH or a clearing in the forest on a sunny day, or maybe even, my front lawn on a dark clear night, just looking up at the stars that someone with more wisdom than I, created.
