More government control buy a gun or pay a fine

[Anachronism]

You spent all this writing based on what you inferred from my post and nothing on what it actually said.

I based my response on the reality of the situation, rather than wasting my time commenting on an idea so preposterous as to not be worth my writing about. There is no way to institute an ironclad response rate measurement. It's been tried in many places and it rarely, if ever, works out.

To Serve and Protect.

Doesn't work that way in reality, and they're not even required to actually try, as has been pointed out by others in this thread.

Whether it's a gun or some other form of weapon, personal self-defense should always be the FIRST means of protecting oneself. As SHOULD have been pointed out by Philadelphia Police to a woman some years back who ended up dying of stab wound within reach of two very interesting objects in her own home some months after being talked into getting a restraining order rather than a Pennsylvania CCW permit. The two items.... An aluminum softball bat, and her NCAA Conference Home Run Championship trophy from a couple years earlier. It seems that the police had never told her that she had a right to defend herself. In fact they'd told her not to even try, just to call them if her ex-boyfriend showed up. 27 minutes after the first phone call came into the dispatcher, the officer showed up for her PRIORITY ONE call to find her DEAD.

 

[Anachronism]

History is full of political theater. No biggy.

You're right that it's not an uncommon tactic. I still believe it's disgusting and deplorable, and something that I would not want any of MY elected officials doing.

Kind of like obamacare?

Yep.

If every politician was "recalled by the electorate for wasting their time and money on ridiculous grandstanding and political masturbation" we'd have no one left in government.

Might not be such a bad solution.

Now you're catching my drift.

 

[The Rabbi]

As a state South Dakota certainly ahs the power to compel such a thing, just as Mass has the power to compel citizens to buy health insurance.
But the power and the wisdom are separate things. I think the measure is defensible generally as in the public interest. But I am not sure we need more gov't coercion in our lives.
Why don't they just offer a tax rebate if you do buy one?

I would suggest the better idea would be to promote it in some way, but to require certain self-defense classes, training, and practice before offering the tax rebate.

As a self-defense gun owner AND a competitive pistol shooter, I have seen the lack of marksmanship, tactical knowledge, and grace under pressure that a large number of people show when handling a firearm. I am a great supporter of our LEO's, but I have to say that as many of them as common citizens fail in these same areas. Mostly for the same reason.... Lack of Proper Training and more importantly.... Lack of Trigger Time. A gun owner who is unwilling or incapable of using that firearm for self-defense is more of a threat to themselves than to a potential criminal.

While I agree that most people can more or less operate their firearms more or less safely I disagree, vehemently, that we need to require anything like training.
In point of fact, citizens do not go around shooting each other randomly. And for whatever little training officers get, it in fact appears to be enough, especially when you stick a Glock with a 15rd capacity in their hands. You can mock "spray and pray" all you want but the stats seem show it actually works more or less.
I have little use for tactifools who preach more and more training, egged on by trainers whose livelihood comes from such classes.

 

[Anachronism]

While I agree that most people can more or less operate their firearms more or less safely I disagree, vehemently, that we need to require anything like training. In point of fact, citizens do not go around shooting each other randomly. And for whatever little training officers get, it in fact appears to be enough, especially when you stick a Glock with a 15rd capacity in their hands. You can mock "spray and pray" all you want but the stats seem show it actually works more or less.
I have little use for tactifools who preach more and more training, egged on by trainers whose livelihood comes from such classes.

I would DISAGREE with the idea that most current gun owners can "more or less" operate their firearms safely. I would suggest that most have absolutely NO IDEA what the heck they're doing, especially were it ever to come to any sort of self-defense situation.

I have had the distinct pleasure of spending time with people like Massad Ayoob, Ken Hackathorn, Bill Wilson, etc... over the last decade. But the one whose advice and wisdom I lean most wholely on is one who is no longer with us, Retired NYPD officer Jim Cirillo. Jim was in 17 gun fights in his career and won every single one of them. Mostly by not fighting fair and doing whatever was necessary to win them rather than playing be "the rules".

Look at the stats on how many of those "spray and pray" bullets go places they were never intended to. That's actually one of the things that causes more problems. Back in the day and age when officers carried revolvers, which they were never taught how to reload, they knew they pretty much had 6 rounds to end a gunfight in their favor, so they made every shot count. Now when these people are walking armories, there is no emphasis on marksmanship at all.

I would suggest that expecting someone who is handling a firearm to at least comprehend the basics of how it operates, and how it is supposed to be used is not that big of a stretch. I don't expect them to take the LFI couses or spend their time at GunSite, XE, or anywhere like that; but there are many good basic self-defense shooting classes out there that are inexpensive and not horribly time consuming.

 

[The Rabbi]

While I agree that most people can more or less operate their firearms more or less safely I disagree, vehemently, that we need to require anything like training. In point of fact, citizens do not go around shooting each other randomly. And for whatever little training officers get, it in fact appears to be enough, especially when you stick a Glock with a 15rd capacity in their hands. You can mock "spray and pray" all you want but the stats seem show it actually works more or less.
I have little use for tactifools who preach more and more training, egged on by trainers whose livelihood comes from such classes.

I would DISAGREE with the idea that most current gun owners can "more or less" operate their firearms safely. I would suggest that most have absolutely NO IDEA what the heck they're doing, especially were it ever to come to any sort of self-defense situation.

I have had the distinct pleasure of spending time with people like Massad Ayoob, Ken Hackathorn, Bill Wilson, etc... over the last decade. But the one whose advice and wisdom I lean most wholely on is one who is no longer with us, Retired NYPD officer Jim Cirillo. Jim was in 17 gun fights in his career and won every single one of them. Mostly by not fighting fair and doing whatever was necessary to win them rather than playing be "the rules".

Look at the stats on how many of those "spray and pray" bullets go places they were never intended to. That's actually one of the things that causes more problems. Back in the day and age when officers carried revolvers, which they were never taught how to reload, they knew they pretty much had 6 rounds to end a gunfight in their favor, so they made every shot count. Now when these people are walking armories, there is no emphasis on marksmanship at all.

I would suggest that expecting someone who is handling a firearm to at least comprehend the basics of how it operates, and how it is supposed to be used is not that big of a stretch. I don't expect them to take the LFI couses or spend their time at GunSite, XE, or anywhere like that; but there are many good basic self-defense shooting classes out there that are inexpensive and not horribly time consuming.

<yawn>
If most gun owners are so incompetent then why aren't they killing each other and themselves every single day? They aren't. They have a very minimal standard of competence, which is nonethelss sufficient for their needs.
In the old revolver days cops were regularly gunned down. They also missed a lot.Ask an officer today with his Glock 22 if he wants to go back to a Smith 10 or 64.
Jim Cirillo transitioned to a semi early on. He could never reproduce at the range or in competition what he did in an encounter.
While agreed that more is better and I always encourage people to shoot and train with their guns, I don't think mandating either of those things will accomplish much.
And Mas Ayoob is a major tool.

 

[Anachronism]

If most gun owners are so incompetent then why aren't they killing each other and themselves every single day? They aren't. They have a very minimal standard of competence, which is nonethelss sufficient for their needs.

Thankfully because most gun owners rarely are put in a position to harm themselves or others with a firearm. Though I would suggest that probably 85% of the school shootings in this country should result in a parent being charged with improper handling/storage of a firearm.

In the old revolver days cops were regularly gunned down. They also missed a lot.Ask an officer today with his Glock 22 if he wants to go back to a Smith 10 or 64.

Unfortunately you're right that many officers did lose out in gunfights with semi-automatic firearms. However, they are not getting sufficient training nowadays to learn how to use their sidearms, and in many cases are literally being taught to fear their own carry gun. Few truly learn to become competent shooters. I say that as someone who shoots with LEO's of all levels from local cops to Border Patrol, ATF, FBI, etc... on a regular basis.

Jim Cirillo transitioned to a semi early on. He could never reproduce at the range or in competition what he did in an encounter.

WRONG. Jimmy carried his revolver throughout his entire career. In fact when I had a chance to meet him, he still referred to the Glocks the department now issues as.... "Those d**n black, slab-sided guns." So far as I am aware he NEVER competed in any IDPA event with anything other than a S&W revolver.

While agreed that more is better and I always encourage people to shoot and train with their guns, I don't think mandating either of those things will accomplish much.

What I think it will do is to weed out those individuals who have not put the time, thought, and effort into determining whether they could actually use a firearm "In the Gravest Extreme".

And Mas Ayoob is a major tool.

If that's your opinion of a gentleman that I happen to consider a friend, then maybe I need to see if there's an "Ignore" feature here. Yes, yes, I do have to do that.

 

[The Rabbi]

If most gun owners are so incompetent then why aren't they killing each other and themselves every single day? They aren't. They have a very minimal standard of competence, which is nonethelss sufficient for their needs.

Thankfully because most gun owners rarely are put in a position to harm themselves or others with a firearm. Though I would suggest that probably 85% of the school shootings in this country should result in a parent being charged with improper handling/storage of a firearm.

In the old revolver days cops were regularly gunned down. They also missed a lot.Ask an officer today with his Glock 22 if he wants to go back to a Smith 10 or 64.

Unfortunately you're right that many officers did lose out in gunfights with semi-automatic firearms. However, they are not getting sufficient training nowadays to learn how to use their sidearms, and in many cases are literally being taught to fear their own carry gun. Few truly learn to become competent shooters. I say that as someone who shoots with LEO's of all levels from local cops to Border Patrol, ATF, FBI, etc... on a regular basis.



WRONG. Jimmy carried his revolver throughout his entire career. In fact when I had a chance to meet him, he still referred to the Glocks the department now issues as.... "Those d**n black, slab-sided guns." So far as I am aware he NEVER competed in any IDPA event with anything other than a S&W revolver.

While agreed that more is better and I always encourage people to shoot and train with their guns, I don't think mandating either of those things will accomplish much.

What I think it will do is to weed out those individuals who have not put the time, thought, and effort into determining whether they could actually use a firearm "In the Gravest Extreme".

And Mas Ayoob is a major tool.

If that's your opinion of a gentleman that I happen to consider a friend, then maybe I need to see if there's an "Ignore" feature here. Yes, yes, I do have to do that.

If Ayoob is a friend of yours you can tell him I think he's a liar and a major tool bag and needs to be writing traffic tickets in his podunk dept.