Is Obama Really this Stupid?

[Two Thumbs]

I just read this, so if there is another thread on the topic, my apologies and would ask the mods to merge it. Also, if this is wrong, and any of the liberals / Dems want to refute it, please do so. Because, frankly, I find it stunning that this is true. I can't believe the Democrat party would do something this stupid. (Of course, the conservatives will replay "Why not?")

With gaffe-a-day-Romney and Barack Oncompetent the two candidates, it could be an interesting battle of two guys dueling to shoot themselves in the head faster than the other guy.

The president signed off on a Health and Human Services ruling that says that under ObamaCare, Catholic institutions—including charities, hospitals and schools—will be required by law, for the first time ever, to provide and pay for insurance coverage that includes contraceptives, abortion-inducing drugs and sterilization procedures. If they do not, they will face ruinous fines in the millions of dollars. Or they can always go out of business.

In other words, the Catholic Church was told this week that its institutions can't be Catholic anymore.

I invite you to imagine the moment we are living in without the church's charities, hospitals and schools. And if you know anything about those organizations, you know it is a fantasy that they can afford millions in fines.

There was no reason to make this ruling—none. Except ideology.

The conscience clause, which keeps the church itself from having to bow to such decisions, has always been assumed to cover the church's institutions.

Now the church is fighting back. Priests in an estimated 70% of parishes last Sunday came forward to read strongly worded protests from the church's bishops. The ruling asks the church to abandon Catholic principles and beliefs; it is an abridgment of the First Amendment; it is not acceptable. They say they will not bow to it. They should never bow to it, not only because they are Catholic and cannot be told to take actions that deny their faith, but because they are citizens of the United States.

If they stay strong and fight, they will win. This is in fact a potentially unifying moment for American Catholics, long split left, right and center. Catholic conservatives will immediately and fully oppose the administration's decision. But Catholic liberals, who feel embarrassed and undercut, have also come out in opposition.

The church is split on many things. But do Catholics in the pews want the government telling their church to contravene its beliefs? A president affronting the leadership of the church, and blithely threatening its great institutions? No, they don't want that. They will unite against that.

The smallest part of this story is political. There are 77.7 million Catholics in the United States. In 2008 they made up 27% of the electorate, about 35 million people. Mr. Obama carried the Catholic vote, 54% to 45%. They helped him win.

They won't this year. And guess where a lot of Catholics live? In the battleground states.

There was no reason to pick this fight. It reflects political incompetence on a scale so great as to make Mitt Romney's gaffes a little bitty thing.

There was nothing for the president to gain, except, perhaps, the pleasure of making a great church bow to him.

Enjoy it while you can. You have awakened a sleeping giant.

A Battle the President Can't Win - WSJ.com

This is in fact, completely true.

We no longer live in a free society, you either conform or get fined.

Don't pay the fine, your income will be taken, if that's not enough, there's always jail for the private citizen.

 

[JoeB131]

If you don't like the insurance offered by the Church, don't work for them. Plain and simple.

Do NOT think that you can coerce the Church into financing a practice or procedure that contradicts their faith, that is a fight you CANNOT WIN.

Not really. You can't use faith as an excuse to circumvent the law. Otherwise the Rastafarians would have a thriving business selling pot.

If the law says that family planning options HAVE to be offered as part of health insurance, then the Church really doesn't have a leg to stand on.

And I wish the Catholic Church had shown this much concern when their priests were molesting altar boys.

 

[JoeB131]

i agree.....many people are pretty dam serious about their Religious beliefs.....

and they are more than free to practice them. They just can't impose them on other people.

im pretty sure this thread is about Obama imposing something on them.....

Well, I'm sure that's what Boro wants you to believe, but nope. It's about them complying with the law, just like everyone else has to.

The law says you have to provide the option of family planning if you are offering a health plan. That seems pretty reasonable and pretty fair to me, to be honest. Saving the preaching and the moralizing for the pulpit, where I have the option of ignoring you.

 

[JoeB131]

And the 98% of Catholics that use birth controlsome time in their lives? The church is out of touch, thanks for helping....LOL

Out of touch with who? Mainstream America or Catholics themselves?

Both, really.

 

[JoeB131]

Well except for the little fact that you leave the church, they don't come and say you have to return, nor do you need to contribute jack shit to an institution you fear or hate or both.

Except that if the Church then turns around and hires me to do a secular job for them, they really have no business trying to impose their beliefs on me.

It's a contract between employer and employee. IN this case, the government is regulating the contract.

I mean, how far do you really want to take the Churches doing this.

If my employer is a Jehovah's Witness, does he have the right to insist my insurance won't cover a blood transfusion?

(Someone asked me to be a Jehovah's Witness once, but I told them I didn't see the accident.)

Conversely, if you are a Rastafarian, do you have a right to get insurance that will pay for medical marijuana even thought the federal government (foolishly, IMO) has called that a federal crime.

 

[Seawytch]

[...]In reality, the rule, part of the Affordable Care Act, exempts houses of worship and other religious nonprofits that primarily employ and serve people of the same faith. But religious groups contend that its conscience protections are too narrow.

A closer examination of the Obama provision, however, reveals that the conscience language closely mirrors the existing provisions in at least five states:

– OBAMA: For purposes of this subsection, a “religious employer” is an organization that meets all of the following criteria:

(1) The inculcation of religious values is the purpose of the organization.
(2) The organization primarily employs persons who share the religious tenets of the organization.
(3) The organization serves primarily persons who share the religious tenets of the organization.
(4)The organization is a nonprofit organization

– NEW YORK: For purposes of this subsection, a “religious employer” is an entity for which each of the following is true:
(a) The inculcation of religious values is the purpose of the entity.
(b) The entity primarily employs persons who share the religious tenets of the entity.
(c) The entity serves primarily persons who share the religious tenets of the entity.
(d) The entity is a nonprofit organization

– CALIFORNIA: For purposes of this section, a “religious employer” is an entity for which each of the following is true:
(A) The inculcation of religious values is the purpose of the entity.
(B) The entity primarily employs persons who share the religious tenets of the entity.
(C) The entity serves primarily persons who share the religious tenets of the entity.
(D) The entity is a nonprofit organization

– MICHIGAN: For our purposes, a “religious employer” is an entity for which all the following are true:
(a) The entity is a nonprofit organization
(b) The inculcation of religious values is the purpose of the entity.
(c) The entity primarily employs people who share the religious tenets of the entity.
(d) The entity serves primarily persons who share the religious tenets of the entity.

– OREGON: A “religious employer” is an employer:
(a) Whose purpose is the inculcation of religious values;
(b) That primarily employs persons who share the religious tenets of the employer;
(c) That primarily serves persons who share the religious tenets of the employer; and
(d) That is a nonprofit organization

Twenty-eight states already require employers, including most religiously affiliated institutions, to cover contraception in their health plans. The only change is that now they must cover the full cost.

Obama Reproductive Health Reg Mirrors State Conscience Protections

 

[Fang]

Incidently-

Most Catholic women use birth control banned by church | Reuters

Some 98 percent of sexually active Catholic women have used contraceptive methods banned by the church, research published on Wednesday showed.

A new report from the Guttmacher Institute, the nonprofit sexual health research organization, shows that only 2 percent of Catholic women, even those who regularly attend church, rely on natural family planning.

The latest data shows practices of Catholic women are in line with women of other religious affiliations and adult American women in general.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[JoeB131]

Incidently-

Most Catholic women use birth control banned by church | Reuters

Some 98 percent of sexually active Catholic women have used contraceptive methods banned by the church, research published on Wednesday showed.

A new report from the Guttmacher Institute, the nonprofit sexual health research organization, shows that only 2 percent of Catholic women, even those who regularly attend church, rely on natural family planning.

The latest data shows practices of Catholic women are in line with women of other religious affiliations and adult American women in general.

What does this have to do with anything?

That the Church is being damned stupid trying to ban family planning coverage for it's side businesses when in fact, their own membership isn't behind them on this one.

 

[Fang]

Incidently-

Most Catholic women use birth control banned by church | Reuters

What does this have to do with anything?

That the Church is being damned stupid trying to ban family planning coverage for it's side businesses when in fact, their own membership isn't behind them on this one.

Then the real question I need to ask is why is the Government in the business of "family planning" (abortions, birth control)? I say they need to stay out of it. The church should be able to do what they want in this regard. It really doesn't matter what their membership does.

 

[JoeB131]

What does this have to do with anything?

That the Church is being damned stupid trying to ban family planning coverage for it's side businesses when in fact, their own membership isn't behind them on this one.

Then the real question I need to ask is why is the Government in the business of "family planning" (abortions, birth control)? I say they need to stay out of it. The church should be able to do what they want in this regard. It really doesn't matter what their membership does.

EXCEPT- that the Church accepts payments from the government and tax breaks and serves clients that the government sends them.

If the CHurch entirely self-insured AND only employed Church members and were only engaged in church business, then you might have a stronger case as to why they could make their own rules.

but they don't.

 

[logical4u]

Real Simple... Catholic based Hospitals don't want to take part in the AHA? Fine... No Federal funds...saves the taxpayers money, I guess.

In places where gov't is in the hole, and the economy is down, these hospitals provide services that are hard to find. Know of one man in Harrisburg, PA that his family found him lying in his own filth, appeared to have been that way for hours. The doctor told them they are so underfunded and understaffed that he was concerned that his patients were not even being "fed".

Yeah, Obamacare! Wipe the medical system, only the strong survive! Healthcare is only for the healthy! You can pat yourself on the back now, another service will be denied!

 

[Fang]

That the Church is being damned stupid trying to ban family planning coverage for it's side businesses when in fact, their own membership isn't behind them on this one.

Then the real question I need to ask is why is the Government in the business of "family planning" (abortions, birth control)? I say they need to stay out of it. The church should be able to do what they want in this regard. It really doesn't matter what their membership does.

EXCEPT- that the Church accepts payments from the government and tax breaks and serves clients that the government sends them.

If the CHurch entirely self-insured AND only employed Church members and were only engaged in church business, then you might have a stronger case as to why they could make their own rules.

but they don't.

It is a slippery slope and major gray area when it comes to religion.

I used to manage a team of 10 programmers. My company did not recognize Jewish holidays. But I still had to let my Jewish employees off on those days. Why is it I had to do? In fact, every company I ever worked for had to let its Jewish employees off.

I also had a Muslim on my team at one point and she would leave meetings and such to go pray. I never questioned it even though my company didn't have a policy for it.

There is no law for any of these examples I gave. But I had to make accommodations for it. In much the same way, I expect the Government to not interfere with Catholic beliefs regardless of tax breaks, clients etc.

The Government is free to send the church clients and ask the church to help. But they do so understanding what the Catholic faith is about.

Does Obama really want to uncover this can of worms it could set off?

 

[logical4u]

I'm disappointed to hear you say "Democrat party." You're generally above that sort of thing.

And my understanding is that it's a statement that "Catholic run institutions" are subject to the same regulation as other businesses if a certain amount of employees are not in fact Catholic.

It's also my understanding that churches are exempt.

But their employer is the Catholic Church - and birth control is against our religion - particularly abortion - which is abhorrent to us. It is, to Catholics, murder.

I don't understand why birth control is against religion. Millions of sperm die whether one ever gets to fertilze an egg or not. And an egg gets wasted every month in the absence of pregnancy, whether birth control is utilized or not. Nothing is really happening any differently with contraception.

How did you get here?

 

[Seawytch]

What does this have to do with anything?

That the Church is being damned stupid trying to ban family planning coverage for it's side businesses when in fact, their own membership isn't behind them on this one.

Then the real question I need to ask is why is the Government in the business of "family planning" (abortions, birth control)? I say they need to stay out of it. The church should be able to do what they want in this regard. It really doesn't matter what their membership does.

The government isn't in the business of abortions. Federal funds are prohibited from being used for abortions. As to why the government is in the "business" of family planning, you have to go back and ask Nixon.

 

[logical4u]

I don't understand why birth control is against religion. Millions of sperm die whether one ever gets to fertilze an egg or not. And an egg gets wasted every month in the absence of pregnancy, whether birth control is utilized or not. Nothing is really happening any differently with contraception.

I too disagree that birth control is wrong. But they choose to make it one of their tenets and as such should be forced to go against them.

Obama is WRONG about this, plain and simple.

There's a family of mormons that were featured on some show on TLC or whatever channel, and they had 5 or 6 children and I think all but 1 of them were autistic. You would think after the 2nd one, something might be wrong and you'd stop having kids. But no. They don't believe in contraception so they feel that belief trumps the belief that they should just stop fucking and bringing more autistic kids into the world when the odds seem to be that they will if they don't stop what they're doing.

It's fucking sad.

Yes, welfare queens get more money for children with "disabilities". Some of them will drug their children to have them diagnosed as "disabled". And yet we continue to pay for them to have more children.

 

[rdean]

This is a perfect example of why we need health care to be government sponsored.

There is no hospital or clinic in the US that doesn't get government funding.

The way to keep women down is to take away their reproductive rights.

Catholic so called Charities have no problem giving men "Viagra".

The real answer is to TAX all churches and religious institution. They must pay for the right to push their mystical and occult beliefs and their strange agenda if they are going to get involved in the public arena.

 

[logical4u]

This just proves that Liberals aren't interested in "choice". It's their way or the highway. Obama will never win this fight with the Catholic Church. Obama, Pelosi and Reid sre such a joke.

Oh... we're all about CHOICE... it's the Conservatives that have an issue with Choice...especially when it pertains to OTHER people's sins.

Where is the "choice" in Obamacare?

 

[GoneBezerk]

Libs will go out of their way not to offend muslims, see the treatment of UBL's body, they don't mind crapping on Christians when they get the chance....it's all because they know muslims will blow things up when pissed off.

 

[logical4u]

I too disagree that birth control is wrong. But they choose to make it one of their tenets and as such should be forced to go against them.

Obama is WRONG about this, plain and simple.

i agree.....many people are pretty dam serious about their Religious beliefs.....

and they are more than free to practice them. They just can't impose them on other people.

If you go to work for an employer and the employer spells out the conditions of employment, are you bound to live with them, after you agree to take the job under those conditions?

 

[AquaAthena]

"Is Obama Really this Stupid?"

Actually, "no," he is pretty smart. He is trying and succeeding, to insert big government into the daily lives of all Americans and their traditions. He is in a hurry because the election is looming and he doesn't feel confidently, that he will enjoy the perks and control of a second term with which he would destroy our American way of life, as we have known it. He also knows that millions of Americans don't know and couldn't care less, of the things he is up to.