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Well except for the little fact that you leave the church, they don't come and say you have to return, nor do you need to contribute jack shit to an institution you fear or hate or both.
Except that if the Church then turns around and hires me to do a secular job for them, they really have no business trying to impose their beliefs on me.
It's a contract between employer and employee. IN this case, the government is regulating the contract.
I mean, how far do you really want to take the Churches doing this.
If my employer is a Jehovah's Witness, does he have the right to insist my insurance won't cover a blood transfusion?
(Someone asked me to be a Jehovah's Witness once, but I told them I didn't see the accident.)
Conversely, if you are a Rastafarian, do you have a right to get insurance that will pay for medical marijuana even thought the federal government (foolishly, IMO) has called that a federal crime.
There's a family of mormons that were featured on some show on TLC or whatever channel, and they had 5 or 6 children and I think all but 1 of them were autistic. You would think after the 2nd one, something might be wrong and you'd stop having kids. But no. They don't believe in contraception so they feel that belief trumps the belief that they should just stop fucking and bringing more autistic kids into the world when the odds seem to be that they will if they don't stop what they're doing.
It's fucking sad.
Santorum has had two die and one will likely not live to adulthood.
Again, that's his business and I would not presume to tell him how to live.
Ain't it a shame that he doesn't have that same respect for me?
As disgusting as it is, he seeks to control my life to the extent that I cannot decide who I'll marry or how many children I'll have. And, he wants the same control over every single human being in the US.
Pretty sick stuff.
Then the real question I need to ask is why is the Government in the business of "family planning" (abortions, birth control)? I say they need to stay out of it. The church should be able to do what they want in this regard. It really doesn't matter what their membership does.
EXCEPT- that the Church accepts payments from the government and tax breaks and serves clients that the government sends them.
If the CHurch entirely self-insured AND only employed Church members and were only engaged in church business, then you might have a stronger case as to why they could make their own rules.
but they don't.
It is a slippery slope and major gray area when it comes to religion.
I used to manage a team of 10 programmers. My company did not recognize Jewish holidays. But I still had to let my Jewish employees off on those days. Why is it I had to do? In fact, every company I ever worked for had to let its Jewish employees off.
I also had a Muslim on my team at one point and she would leave meetings and such to go pray. I never questioned it even though my company didn't have a policy for it.
There is no law for any of these examples I gave. But I had to make accommodations for it. In much the same way, I expect the Government to not interfere with Catholic beliefs regardless of tax breaks, clients etc.
The Government is free to send the church clients and ask the church to help. But they do so understanding what the Catholic faith is about.
Does Obama really want to uncover this can of worms it could set off?
Well except for the little fact that you leave the church, they don't come and say you have to return, nor do you need to contribute jack shit to an institution you fear or hate or both.
Except that if the Church then turns around and hires me to do a secular job for them, they really have no business trying to impose their beliefs on me.
It's a contract between employer and employee. IN this case, the government is regulating the contract.
I mean, how far do you really want to take the Churches doing this.
If my employer is a Jehovah's Witness, does he have the right to insist my insurance won't cover a blood transfusion?
(Someone asked me to be a Jehovah's Witness once, but I told them I didn't see the accident.)
Conversely, if you are a Rastafarian, do you have a right to get insurance that will pay for medical marijuana even thought the federal government (foolishly, IMO) has called that a federal crime.
The church doesn't come looking for employees, like any other organization that is hiring, people apply for the position. Certainly if they hired headhunters for their positions and one contacted you, regardless of the salary dangled before you, your own ethics would force you not to accept whether or not they'd buy you condoms.
This just proves that Liberals aren't interested in "choice". It's their way or the highway. Obama will never win this fight with the Catholic Church. Obama, Pelosi and Reid sre such a joke.
Oh... we're all about CHOICE... it's the Conservatives that have an issue with Choice...especially when it pertains to OTHER people's sins.
Where is the "choice" in Obamacare?
This just proves that Liberals aren't interested in "choice". It's their way or the highway. Obama will never win this fight with the Catholic Church. Obama, Pelosi and Reid sre such a joke.
Oh... we're all about CHOICE... it's the Conservatives that have an issue with Choice...especially when it pertains to OTHER people's sins.
Where is the "choice" in Obamacare?
EXCEPT- that the Church accepts payments from the government and tax breaks and serves clients that the government sends them.
If the CHurch entirely self-insured AND only employed Church members and were only engaged in church business, then you might have a stronger case as to why they could make their own rules.
but they don't.
It is a slippery slope and major gray area when it comes to religion.
I used to manage a team of 10 programmers. My company did not recognize Jewish holidays. But I still had to let my Jewish employees off on those days. Why is it I had to do? In fact, every company I ever worked for had to let its Jewish employees off.
I also had a Muslim on my team at one point and she would leave meetings and such to go pray. I never questioned it even though my company didn't have a policy for it.
There is no law for any of these examples I gave. But I had to make accommodations for it. In much the same way, I expect the Government to not interfere with Catholic beliefs regardless of tax breaks, clients etc.
The Government is free to send the church clients and ask the church to help. But they do so understanding what the Catholic faith is about.
Does Obama really want to uncover this can of worms it could set off?
Again, given that 98% of sexually active Catholic chicks practice some kind of family planning, the CHurch is in opposition to its membership, so it really doesn't cost Obama anything to pick this fight.
Well except for the little fact that you leave the church, they don't come and say you have to return, nor do you need to contribute jack shit to an institution you fear or hate or both.
Except that if the Church then turns around and hires me to do a secular job for them, they really have no business trying to impose their beliefs on me.
It's a contract between employer and employee. IN this case, the government is regulating the contract.
I mean, how far do you really want to take the Churches doing this.
If my employer is a Jehovah's Witness, does he have the right to insist my insurance won't cover a blood transfusion?
(Someone asked me to be a Jehovah's Witness once, but I told them I didn't see the accident.)
Conversely, if you are a Rastafarian, do you have a right to get insurance that will pay for medical marijuana even thought the federal government (foolishly, IMO) has called that a federal crime.
Except that if the Church then turns around and hires me to do a secular job for them, they really have no business trying to impose their beliefs on me.
Oh... we're all about CHOICE... it's the Conservatives that have an issue with Choice...especially when it pertains to OTHER people's sins.
Where is the "choice" in Obamacare?
The "choice" is the taxpayer shouldn't be stuck with the bill. You are mandated to buy car insurance. And the only reason for that it to protect others from your miserable choices. Same with health care. Ever notice how many Republicans are old and gienormous.
And don't say some stupid shit like, "Well then don't drive".
....please, after all this time you still have not learned the difference.....unreal.EXCEPT- that the Church accepts payments from the government and tax breaks and serves clients that the government sends them.
If the CHurch entirely self-insured AND only employed Church members and were only engaged in church business, then you might have a stronger case as to why they could make their own rules.
but they don't.
It is a slippery slope and major gray area when it comes to religion.
I used to manage a team of 10 programmers. My company did not recognize Jewish holidays. But I still had to let my Jewish employees off on those days. Why is it I had to do? In fact, every company I ever worked for had to let its Jewish employees off. Even though I might agree with some of what the Government says, its still not their place to interfere.
I also had a Muslim on my team at one point and she would leave meetings and such to go pray. I never questioned it even though my company didn't have a policy for it.
There is no law for any of these examples I gave. But I had to make accommodations for it. In much the same way, I expect the Government to not interfere with Catholic beliefs regardless of tax breaks, clients etc.
The Government is free to send the church clients and ask the church to help. But they do so understanding what the Catholic faith is about.
Does Obama really want to uncover this can of worms it could set off?
Again, given that 98% of sexually active Catholic chicks practice some kind of family planning, the CHurch is in opposition to its membership, so it really doesn't cost Obama anything to pick this fight.
I don't understand why birth control is against religion. Millions of sperm die whether one ever gets to fertilze an egg or not. And an egg gets wasted every month in the absence of pregnancy, whether birth control is utilized or not. Nothing is really happening any differently with contraception.
I guess conservatives trust nature more than new ideas like the ones Hitler Stalin and Mao had. Plus birth control is really love control.
Instead of loving the person with whom you have sex, loving the baby that results, and forming a family, you have sex with strangers and kill the baby.
Which culture is better?
Ummmm... please explain this part? I know that China had mandated abortions.... but "enlighten" me on the other two. Nevermind...Googled it....
Here's the difference, slick....
China Mandated Abortion.
Nazi Germany felt that a woman's body belonged to the state and the state would decide on the fate of her pregnancy.
Stalin? You may want to read up on him...He banned abortion because he wanted to stimulate the population...after his death in 1955, the USSR lifted the ban.
The one thing all three of those countries had in common....a lack of choice....something that the Conservative viewpoint has more in common than the progressive's pro-choice viewpoint.
It does not matter whether you understand it or not. You are not Catholic, no one is asking you to understand it. We are asking - nay, we are demanding - our right to practice our religion without interference. It does not affect you.
The fact is that, should Obama get his way, the Church's hospitals will have to close to all non-Catholics. Given that the Church treats anyone - of any faith, color, creed or sexual orientation - and much of that from its own funding. Do you really want to pick up the tab for that? I'll be fine, my Church will treat me.... but they won't be allowed to treat a non-Catholic.
Simply put, employees have choices.... if you wish to have birth control funded by your employer... don't take a job working for the Catholic Church.
Nobody is stopping you from practicing your backwards superstitions or letting the corrupt deviants who make up your clergy from running your life.
(Sorry, grew up Catholic. They aren't as evil as Mormons, but they are freakin' close.)
You just can'ti impose them on anyone else.
Only two people should be in on your medical decisions. You and your doctor. Not a bean-counter at an insurance company and not a church deciding they don't approve of your "lifestyle".
What if the church decided it wasn't going to approve AIDS drugs because they don't approve of homosexuality? Or if you boss who is a Jehovah's Witness decides that his insurance company isn't going to cover blood transfusions? Where does it stop?
I'm more worried about Church Tyranny than state tryanny. (Probalby because I grew up in a Church tyranny.) We can vote out a president, we can't vote out a Pope no matter how many pedophiles he hides under his dress.
Except that the Pope does not pass laws which forces us to abide by or we pay huge fines or go to prison. It's a lot easier to leave the church than leave to the country.
True enough. but you don't have freedom of religion unless you have freedom FROM religion.
This is the main reason why I really hate the Mormons with the passion I do. They just don't seem to understand that there is this line between church and state, and church and freedom. They don't like gay marriage, so no one should get a gay marriage. They don't like abortion so no one should get an abortion.
I should not have my medical choices limited because of my employer's superstitions and ignorance.
I'd personally like to get employers out of the health insurance business entirely, because it's a horrible idea.
I'm disappointed to hear you say "Democrat party." You're generally above that sort of thing.
And my understanding is that it's a statement that "Catholic run institutions" are subject to the same regulation as other businesses if a certain amount of employees are not in fact Catholic.
It's also my understanding that churches are exempt.
But their employer is the Catholic Church - and birth control is against our religion - particularly abortion - which is abhorrent to us. It is, to Catholics, murder.
Actually American Catholics believe in using birth control in about the same percentages as the rest of American population. However, when it comes to the morning-after pill and force coverages that are against church teachings, even those that in general are for birth control are drawing a line.
What this decision will result in is the schools, hospitals, clinics, other services provided by Catholic Charities, being staffed and serving only Catholics. Is that really what is wanted? The decision may be overturned by the courts, as it should be. The Church may cave, but in that case, the Church is no longer The Church.
Really? It is a function of government to post roads, so they can demand certain criteria for you to use those public roads. One being insured, the other being liscensed. It's a privilege to drive on public roads.Oh... we're all about CHOICE... it's the Conservatives that have an issue with Choice...especially when it pertains to OTHER people's sins.
Where is the "choice" in Obamacare?
The "choice" is the taxpayer shouldn't be stuck with the bill. You are mandated to buy car insurance. And the only reason for that it to protect others from your miserable choices. Same with health care. Ever notice how many Republicans are old and gienormous.
And don't say some stupid shit like, "Well then don't drive".
It is a slippery slope and major gray area when it comes to religion.
I used to manage a team of 10 programmers. My company did not recognize Jewish holidays. But I still had to let my Jewish employees off on those days. Why is it I had to do? In fact, every company I ever worked for had to let its Jewish employees off.
I also had a Muslim on my team at one point and she would leave meetings and such to go pray. I never questioned it even though my company didn't have a policy for it.
There is no law for any of these examples I gave. But I had to make accommodations for it. In much the same way, I expect the Government to not interfere with Catholic beliefs regardless of tax breaks, clients etc.
The Government is free to send the church clients and ask the church to help. But they do so understanding what the Catholic faith is about.
Does Obama really want to uncover this can of worms it could set off?
Again, given that 98% of sexually active Catholic chicks practice some kind of family planning, the CHurch is in opposition to its membership, so it really doesn't cost Obama anything to pick this fight.
True. I suspect the number is very close to 98%. But for some reason, people in this country supports institutions that don't have their best interests at heart. Look at the Republicans.
That's between the Church and its membership. Obama and Government have no place in this. He just needs to respect what the church stands for.
But if Obama wants to pick this fight, then he may do so at the risk of being reelected. We shall see.
btw... In full disclosure, if you haven't guessed I happen to be Catholic. I'm also pro-choice. But pro-Choice to me means just that. Everyone chooses for themselves without Government interference of any kind.
That's between the Church and its membership. Obama and Government have no place in this. He just needs to respect what the church stands for.
But if Obama wants to pick this fight, then he may do so at the risk of being reelected. We shall see.
btw... In full disclosure, if you haven't guessed I happen to be Catholic. I'm also pro-choice. But pro-Choice to me means just that. Everyone chooses for themselves without Government interference of any kind.
Well, I'm an ex-Catholic who hates the Church with a passion. Not Catholics themselves, most of my relatives are still practicing Catholics. So I don't mind seeing the church getting needled on this one.
Now, all of that said, the Church is probably on weak ground on this one, because there are already a lot of regulations on health care and what can and can't be covered. Also, the rank and file catholics probably don't want the Chruch dictating this sort of thing.
BUt Obama's going to be re-elected by Catholics because Romney is a horrible human being.
But their employer is the Catholic Church - and birth control is against our religion - particularly abortion - which is abhorrent to us. It is, to Catholics, murder.
Actually American Catholics believe in using birth control in about the same percentages as the rest of American population. However, when it comes to the morning-after pill and force coverages that are against church teachings, even those that in general are for birth control are drawing a line.
What this decision will result in is the schools, hospitals, clinics, other services provided by Catholic Charities, being staffed and serving only Catholics. Is that really what is wanted? The decision may be overturned by the courts, as it should be. The Church may cave, but in that case, the Church is no longer The Church.
I'm aware of how American Catholics live, thanks. I'm aware that many use birth control, and I know that, while the Church disapproves, it does not condemn them for it. As you say, there are lines... the morning after pill and abortion.... those are the other side of that line. We cannot and will not fund them. I don't see any way in hell that the Church will back down. It never has before.
As you point out... it is the most needy who will suffer the consequences of this stupidity by Obama. My Church does more for those people than any other organization - apart from the federal Government. Do they really want to have to spend yet more taxpayers money providing services that are currently being provided - and to a large part, funded - by the Church?
Real Simple... Catholic based Hospitals don't want to take part in the AHA? Fine... No Federal funds...saves the taxpayers money, I guess.
I agree. The choice to take federal funds for hospitals, even the use of state approved school texts and bus services was a mistake, IMO. That is where it's gotten to this point. It can be reversed simply by becoming Catholic services ONLY. If the urban poor wish to send their kids to Catholic schools, they can convert to the faith. Catholics in general then should make their primary charity giving Catholic based.
