Is Major Jihadi a poster boy for profiling?

[Paulie]

My position has always been that no one is entitled to "privacy" in the Constitution. Unlawful search and seizure of property, sure, but not the monitoring of communications, especially if the target is in the military or CIA/FBI/NSA/mossad/ or any other agency. I still remember how Ames & Hansen beat the system and cost us dearly.

If the monitoring of communications is happening between two people, in their private property, using a private company's communication line, then it would seem to me that the 4th and even the 5th are being violated.

While there's no DIRECT "Right to privacy" in the constitution, the 4th and the 5th pretty much protect citizens from most abuses of privacy if everything is being done on or via private property.

 

[kyzr]

My position has always been that no one is entitled to "privacy" in the Constitution. Unlawful search and seizure of property, sure, but not the monitoring of communications, especially if the target is in the military or CIA/FBI/NSA/mossad/ or any other agency. I still remember how Ames & Hansen beat the system and cost us dearly.

If the monitoring of communications is happening between two people, in their private property, using a private company's communication line, then it would seem to me that the 4th and even the 5th are being violated.

While there's no DIRECT "Right to privacy" in the constitution, the 4th and the 5th pretty much protect citizens from most abuses of privacy if everything is being done on or via private property.

How do you provide security without routine monitoring? Or, better still, if someone is acting suspiciously? If I can force someone to take a drug test, I should be able to monitor someone for security reasons. If Hassan was talking to AQ, you think he's entitled to privacy??

 

[Paulie]

My position has always been that no one is entitled to "privacy" in the Constitution. Unlawful search and seizure of property, sure, but not the monitoring of communications, especially if the target is in the military or CIA/FBI/NSA/mossad/ or any other agency. I still remember how Ames & Hansen beat the system and cost us dearly.

If the monitoring of communications is happening between two people, in their private property, using a private company's communication line, then it would seem to me that the 4th and even the 5th are being violated.

While there's no DIRECT "Right to privacy" in the constitution, the 4th and the 5th pretty much protect citizens from most abuses of privacy if everything is being done on or via private property.

How do you provide security without routine monitoring? Or, better still, if someone is acting suspiciously? If I can force someone to take a drug test, I should be able to monitor someone for security reasons. If Hassan was talking to AQ, you think he's entitled to privacy??

I happen to think forced drug tests violate the 4th, but I'm a libertarian, for the purpose of disclosure, before this goes any further. I'd guess that would mean you'd prefer not to debate this with me, which I'd be fine with.

 

[geauxtohell]

I know the military doesn't vet prospective soldiers in the same way the FBI, the CIA, etc. vets their own prospective federal agents, no thorough background checks and interviewing neighbors, relatives, etc.

They did with my daughter for her security clearance (went as far back as interviewing her teachers from Jr High).

Wouldn't an officer have to undergo a security clearance as well?

I don't think so but maybe someone with military experience can answer that.

Every officer in the military has a clearance (unless it's expired). Certainly every AD officer in the military has a clearance.

O1-O3 have at least Secret Clearances (2LT to Captain)
O-4s (Majors) have to have at least a Top Secret Clearance.

 

[geauxtohell]

Like I said, I don't much about this story at all. He had a known history of islamic fundamentalist behavior?

As Emma stated earlier, this is basically what we know.

What could have been profiled? So far, the only thing that's come out is that he spoke out against the war and had hired an attorney to get him discharged. There's that one who attended school with him in Bethesda making this claim, but I've not seen anyone else step forward to corroborate his story (not likely to get that from superiors he supposedly complained to however) There was talk of him being counseled there too, but officials are saying that's not unusual, that most residents are counseled (I can believe that). The emails? The FBI determined that they were regarding his research at Walter Reed.

It's come out now that he attended the mosque headed by the radical Iman. Would the Army have known that at the time?

Well you have to look at it this way..

If he was a person who was privy to secret information that was vital to national security, it's possible he'd be monitored and followed probably daily. I imagine that being a CIA agent that knows the REALLY secret stuff means you have almost no privacy.

But this guy was just a Doc. Even if he's scrutinized, he wouldn't be followed around and monitored on a daily basis. He'd be able to attend certain churches in privacy.

The question is, did he start attending this church AFTER his security clearance investigation, or before? Being a major, he's been in the military for at LEAST 6-8 years, if not more.

It takes two years just to get to O-2. He's O-4.

As a Doctor, he would have been commissioned during his time in medical school. He would have entered Active Duty as an O-3. I think I read that he graduated Med School in '05, so he's been on AD for about five years (that's still early to make Major though).

 

[kyzr]

I happen to think forced drug tests violate the 4th, but I'm a libertarian, for the purpose of disclosure, before this goes any further. I'd guess that would mean you'd prefer not to debate this with me, which I'd be fine with.

It wasn't a debate. I reported a fact. If I see someone under the influence I escort them to take a random drug test. If they refuse they get fired. We have strict safety and insurance requirements, which are conditions of employment.

IMHO we need to protect lives which supersedes privacy concerns. Criminals and terrorists shouldn't get to hide behind the privacy screen.

 

[Paulie]

I happen to think forced drug tests violate the 4th, but I'm a libertarian, for the purpose of disclosure, before this goes any further. I'd guess that would mean you'd prefer not to debate this with me, which I'd be fine with.

It wasn't a debate. I reported a fact. If I see someone under the influence I escort them to take a random drug test. If they refuse they get fired. We have strict safety and insurance requirements, which are conditions of employment.

IMHO we need to protect lives which supersedes privacy concerns. Criminals and terrorists shouldn't get to hide behind the privacy screen.

Again, a difference in a private company forcing one for employment, and the police forcing one when you're "innocent until proven guilty".

But I don't feel like discussing this anyway. Maybe we'll meet again somewhere else on here for discussion sometime.

 

[del]

I happen to think forced drug tests violate the 4th, but I'm a libertarian, for the purpose of disclosure, before this goes any further. I'd guess that would mean you'd prefer not to debate this with me, which I'd be fine with.

It wasn't a debate. I reported a fact. If I see someone under the influence I escort them to take a random drug test. If they refuse they get fired. We have strict safety and insurance requirements, which are conditions of employment.

IMHO we need to protect lives which supersedes privacy concerns. Criminals and terrorists shouldn't get to hide behind the privacy screen.

jawohl.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Is Major Jihadi a poster boy for profiling?

I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but seriously, how was this guy not profiled just a little bit more?

Is there a reason why the military apparently doesn't profile? Or if they do they suck at it (which would be another topic entirely).

I know some people will blame the pc police. But I don't really buy that. Sure, if Major Jihadi had been discharged based on sound judgement, pc officers like Ravi and Anguille would vilify the decision and say it's discrimination, blah blah blah. But I never took the US military to give a rat's ass about the jabberwocky of pc clowns.

But back to the questions at hand. Is Major Jihadi a poster boy for profiling? Why doesn't the military profile more? Do you think they will profile more now?

At least as good a case as was Timothy McVeigh.

btw, this doesn't look like a profiling issue. It looks failure to act on cause. Based on the information that's out, this guy had given the authorities legitimate reason to take action against him.

 

[Cyborgmudhen]

Is Major Jihadi a poster boy for profiling?

I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but seriously, how was this guy not profiled just a little bit more?

Is there a reason why the military apparently doesn't profile? Or if they do they suck at it (which would be another topic entirely).

I know some people will blame the pc police. But I don't really buy that. Sure, if Major Jihadi had been discharged based on sound judgement, pc officers like Ravi and Anguille would vilify the decision and say it's discrimination, blah blah blah. But I never took the US military to give a rat's ass about the jabberwocky of pc clowns.

But back to the questions at hand. Is Major Jihadi a poster boy for profiling? Why doesn't the military profile more? Do you think they will profile more now?

At least as good a case as was Timothy McVeigh.

btw, this doesn't look like a profiling issue. It looks failure to act on cause. Based on the information that's out, this guy had given the authorities legitimate reason to take action against him.

Exactly, NYC.
This has far more to do with bad Army personnel policies and practices than it does profiling.
We DO profile, btw. Anyone who has ever filled out an SF 86 for a security clnc knows that.

 

[Ravi]

They did with my daughter for her security clearance (went as far back as interviewing her teachers from Jr High).

Wouldn't an officer have to undergo a security clearance as well?

I don't think so but maybe someone with military experience can answer that.

Every officer in the military has a clearance (unless it's expired). Certainly every AD officer in the military has a clearance.

O1-O3 have at least Secret Clearances (2LT to Captain)
O-4s (Majors) have to have at least a Top Secret Clearance.

Thanks.

According to this morning's news:

Reporting from Washington - Two high-profile anti-terrorism task forces did not inform the Defense Department about contacts between a radical Islamic cleric and the Army psychiatrist accused of killing 13 people in last week's rampage at Ft. Hood, a senior Defense official said Tuesday.

Military not told about Ft. Hood suspect's e-mails -- latimes.com

Supposedly, Hasan was communicating with the radical cleric for over a year. It is hard to think of a reason that the intelligence community would not notify the military about this...especially if this guy did have a Top Secret Clearance.

 

[Ravi]

Is Major Jihadi a poster boy for profiling?

I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but seriously, how was this guy not profiled just a little bit more?

Is there a reason why the military apparently doesn't profile? Or if they do they suck at it (which would be another topic entirely).

I know some people will blame the pc police. But I don't really buy that. Sure, if Major Jihadi had been discharged based on sound judgement, pc officers like Ravi and Anguille would vilify the decision and say it's discrimination, blah blah blah. But I never took the US military to give a rat's ass about the jabberwocky of pc clowns.

But back to the questions at hand. Is Major Jihadi a poster boy for profiling? Why doesn't the military profile more? Do you think they will profile more now?

Just for fun...here's a case of "profiling" gone wrong.

What the priest got instead, police say, was a tire iron to the head. Then he was chased for three blocks and pinned to the ground — as the Marine kept a 911 operator on the phone, saying he had captured a terrorist.

Tampa police: Marine reservist attacked Greek priest he mistook for terrorist - St. Petersburg Times

 

[Paulie]

I don't think so but maybe someone with military experience can answer that.

Every officer in the military has a clearance (unless it's expired). Certainly every AD officer in the military has a clearance.

O1-O3 have at least Secret Clearances (2LT to Captain)
O-4s (Majors) have to have at least a Top Secret Clearance.

Thanks.

According to this morning's news:

Reporting from Washington - Two high-profile anti-terrorism task forces did not inform the Defense Department about contacts between a radical Islamic cleric and the Army psychiatrist accused of killing 13 people in last week's rampage at Ft. Hood, a senior Defense official said Tuesday.

Military not told about Ft. Hood suspect's e-mails -- latimes.com

Supposedly, Hasan was communicating with the radical cleric for over a year. It is hard to think of a reason that the intelligence community would not notify the military about this...especially if this guy did have a Top Secret Clearance.

Because the intelligence community allows him to continue his movements while they study and learn more.

Maybe he surprised them by the attack, and that's an unintended consequence of keeping what they know a secret.

It's a rock and a hard place situation. If he has contacts with terror units, the intelligence community wants to follow him and get info. If they just go ahead and shut him down then they could miss out on gathering more intel.

 

[Ravi]

That's a good point, Paulie, and I suppose it could be true. But it doesn't sound right...especially given the fact that he was allowed to buy weapons and managed to get them on base.

 

[Paulie]

That's a good point, Paulie, and I suppose it could be true. But it doesn't sound right...especially given the fact that he was allowed to buy weapons and managed to get them on base.

What weapon(s) did he use in the attack?

 

[Ravi]

WASHINGTON — A 5.7-millimeter pistol used in the Fort Hood shooting was purchased legally by suspect Nidal Hasan at a Texas gun shop, law enforcement officials said Friday.
Army Col. John Rossi, deputy commander at Fort Hood, confirmed at a news conference late Friday in Texas that the two weapons carried by Hasan were not military arms, but "privately owned weapons ... purchased locally."

The Associated Press: AP Sources: Rampage gun purchased legally

 

[KMAN]

Is Major Jihadi a poster boy for profiling?

I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but seriously, how was this guy not profiled just a little bit more?

Is there a reason why the military apparently doesn't profile? Or if they do they suck at it (which would be another topic entirely).

I know some people will blame the pc police. But I don't really buy that. Sure, if Major Jihadi had been discharged based on sound judgement, pc officers like Ravi and Anguille would vilify the decision and say it's discrimination, blah blah blah. But I never took the US military to give a rat's ass about the jabberwocky of pc clowns.

But back to the questions at hand. Is Major Jihadi a poster boy for profiling? Why doesn't the military profile more? Do you think they will profile more now?

It's sad but you are right... The left won't do it because groups like the ACLU would start bitching....

 

[Paulie]

I don't know...

Intel is looking for WMD's, not pistols. Like I said, him shooting a bunch of people could have just surprised them.

Maybe intel calculated the potential risk, and two pistols wasn't worth losing their trail.

Who knows.

What's most important, is what does intel know at this point about this man. Does he have contacts with terror orgs or not?

They better fucking have SOMETHING.

 

[Ravi]

I have a feeling we'll never know...the spooks are good at covering their tracks.

 

[xotoxi]

Just for fun...here's a case of "profiling" gone wrong.

What the priest got instead, police say, was a tire iron to the head. Then he was chased for three blocks and pinned to the ground — as the Marine kept a 911 operator on the phone, saying he had captured a terrorist.

Tampa police: Marine reservist attacked Greek priest he mistook for terrorist - St. Petersburg Times

Looks like this guy thinks that profiling means violently assaulting another person who is not acting aggressively...and then asking questions later.