Is Joyce Meyer an outright liar or just oblivious & deceived?

[emilynghiem]

Nonsense Hobe the teachings have been corrupted and Everyman walks around doing what is right in their own eyes.. If there is no central authority like the temple where ideals can be discussed and decided then there is no Supreme Court to make a final decision.. What messiah are you talking about Hobe there were many messiah in Judiasm.. Kings , prophets anointed ones to name a few... That view of yours is one of the corrupted points your hero was no messiah just a Roman joke....

Dear shimon the universal Messiah or Message is of Divine peace and justice. God's unifying truth love will and laws embodied in man to reconcile our individual will with God's perfect will.

This embracing and receiving of justice by perfect love happens for each person on God's timing.

That's what Jesus in the Bible represents: the reconciliation of man and God in harmony and truth that sets us free from suffering and strife from sins separating us from God.

If you look up Restorative Justice, that is the closest real world equivalent of explaining the meaning of Christ Jesus in secular terms even an atheist can understand. The message is That Universal where everyone will receive.

You are right there has been a whole history of corruption from material greed and selfishness . The solution to this is divine forgiveness so we may receive correction and healing, restoring good faith relations and good will or God's will for all humanity as one body or family in the Kingdom of God bringing heavenly peace on Earth.

If you want to see a good witness to the power of forgiveness and healing In Christ Jesus, look up Peter Loth who teaches how this grace fulfills both his path as a Jewish believer, and all paths for all people healed and United by divine forgiveness and grace.

When we all receive and embody this Message. That is the Messiah that comes for all humanity to establish Gods universal truth justice and peace. Many people have already received this universal message and live in spiritual peace or the kingdom of God, and it will take all humanity doing the same for this to be fully manifested worldwide and beyond, on all levels inside and out, individually and globally, on earth as it is in heaven. May God's will be done and received with perfect grace, healing and comfort for all.

With all due respect The Jesus you speak of are just empty words written on a scroll or paper.. He does the opposite of what you preach and teach...He takes people away from Gd... You realize that Jesus is a figment of the writers of the new testaments mind and was given breath and life in words... This person that you adore never existed and was the amalgamation of many people their lives and the myths and fables associated with him.... The Jesus you speak of is the Logos in the books own words.It means he is The WORD nothing more nothing less.... Mere ink on a story that Christians change and rehash and rechange whenever they feel the need that is why you have so many many versions so you can change your lying word( your Jesus) to fit whatever is needed...Prince of Peace indeed... The faith in him and his fables have brought peace alright but not the peace you preach but has split the world into many PIECES and factions each one trying to control and fight with one another as he said in your book so eloquently he brought division father against son son against mother brother against brother... Great job is you asked me of bringing PIECE.... Great indeed....

Dear shimon
It depends how Jesus is taught.
Again, I have explained as teaching Justice in two ways:
Retributive Justice
and
Restorative Justice.

I find that Restorative Justice unites.
You are saying that Jesus divides,
which is retributive justice to judge and reject.
You are doing this now, so you are part of that way of teaching.
Divisive.

I keep including you but you keep rejecting.

So you are proof of how the division happens.
Don't blame it on Jesus if you are doing that yourself.

My way of teaching is to include BOTH ways:
use retributive justice for people who live that way, like bullies,
and it takes a bigger bully to confront the other bullies to give
them a taste of their own medicine
use Restorative Justice for those who live by justice with mercy

So this way includes and explains BOTH ways.

Your way only points to the judgment/rejection/division type.
If you are teaching that, then you are doing the very thing
you say Jesus is used to teach! Is that what you really want?
Then keep doing what you are doing and teaching this way,
and you will be right, that this keeps division going. As you are doing yourself.

By your definition then all the prophets of Israel that stood up against their fellow Israelites and the authorities were bullies and were teaching division even though most of the people were united against them... Justice is a double edged sword unfortunately even though it is meant to be Justice for all I have found it is limited to a select group meaning JUST US.... So the majority of people are judged harshly and condemned while the ones in the group hiercharchy are treated with kids gloves and get a free get out of jail card with a little slap on the wrist.... If people are following a wrong path and are not given the option of following a correct path does not the sin of not showing then fall at the feet of those who know the truth... At the very least it should be pointed out to them so that they are given all the information to make an educated choice... Is that being divisive according to your definition... If 20 divided by 4 equals 5 and I see that but you teach the answer is 7 either knowingly or unknowingly is it not my place to point that out to you and those you teach... Or should I just let you stay in your darkness and laugh at you behind your back....Your definition is narrow there are many grey areas in life and square pegs do not fit into round holes unless they are forced to bow down to the majority rules because some Johnny come later declared they were being divisive... You want Restorative " Justice " then people must swallow their pride and fess up and admit when they are wrong... We call that Teshuva.... Numbers don't matter only the truth does....

Dear shimon if we agree on the path of restorative justice and showing ppl how to correct what's wrong, that's perfect. Let's focus there.

To help ppl with confessing forgiving and correcting all these wrongs going on, I usually focus on what each person prioritizes as the most critical problem they want to address or are called to work on.

Which problem do you find is most urgent to correct first, so that everything else will follow from there.

Do you feel it is wrong ways of teaching the Bible that lead ppl astray and that's the most pressing point?

Let's start with what your calling is, and apply restorative justice means of correcting those misteachings or other problems related.

Which problems do you find need to be fixed first?

 

[shimon]

Nonsense Hobe the teachings have been corrupted and Everyman walks around doing what is right in their own eyes.. If there is no central authority like the temple where ideals can be discussed and decided then there is no Supreme Court to make a final decision.. What messiah are you talking about Hobe there were many messiah in Judiasm.. Kings , prophets anointed ones to name a few... That view of yours is one of the corrupted points your hero was no messiah just a Roman joke....

Dear shimon the universal Messiah or Message is of Divine peace and justice. God's unifying truth love will and laws embodied in man to reconcile our individual will with God's perfect will.

This embracing and receiving of justice by perfect love happens for each person on God's timing.

That's what Jesus in the Bible represents: the reconciliation of man and God in harmony and truth that sets us free from suffering and strife from sins separating us from God.

If you look up Restorative Justice, that is the closest real world equivalent of explaining the meaning of Christ Jesus in secular terms even an atheist can understand. The message is That Universal where everyone will receive.

You are right there has been a whole history of corruption from material greed and selfishness . The solution to this is divine forgiveness so we may receive correction and healing, restoring good faith relations and good will or God's will for all humanity as one body or family in the Kingdom of God bringing heavenly peace on Earth.

If you want to see a good witness to the power of forgiveness and healing In Christ Jesus, look up Peter Loth who teaches how this grace fulfills both his path as a Jewish believer, and all paths for all people healed and United by divine forgiveness and grace.

When we all receive and embody this Message. That is the Messiah that comes for all humanity to establish Gods universal truth justice and peace. Many people have already received this universal message and live in spiritual peace or the kingdom of God, and it will take all humanity doing the same for this to be fully manifested worldwide and beyond, on all levels inside and out, individually and globally, on earth as it is in heaven. May God's will be done and received with perfect grace, healing and comfort for all.

With all due respect The Jesus you speak of are just empty words written on a scroll or paper.. He does the opposite of what you preach and teach...He takes people away from Gd... You realize that Jesus is a figment of the writers of the new testaments mind and was given breath and life in words... This person that you adore never existed and was the amalgamation of many people their lives and the myths and fables associated with him.... The Jesus you speak of is the Logos in the books own words.It means he is The WORD nothing more nothing less.... Mere ink on a story that Christians change and rehash and rechange whenever they feel the need that is why you have so many many versions so you can change your lying word( your Jesus) to fit whatever is needed...Prince of Peace indeed... The faith in him and his fables have brought peace alright but not the peace you preach but has split the world into many PIECES and factions each one trying to control and fight with one another as he said in your book so eloquently he brought division father against son son against mother brother against brother... Great job is you asked me of bringing PIECE.... Great indeed....

Dear shimon
It depends how Jesus is taught.
Again, I have explained as teaching Justice in two ways:
Retributive Justice
and
Restorative Justice.

I find that Restorative Justice unites.
You are saying that Jesus divides,
which is retributive justice to judge and reject.
You are doing this now, so you are part of that way of teaching.
Divisive.

I keep including you but you keep rejecting.

So you are proof of how the division happens.
Don't blame it on Jesus if you are doing that yourself.

My way of teaching is to include BOTH ways:
use retributive justice for people who live that way, like bullies,
and it takes a bigger bully to confront the other bullies to give
them a taste of their own medicine
use Restorative Justice for those who live by justice with mercy

So this way includes and explains BOTH ways.

Your way only points to the judgment/rejection/division type.
If you are teaching that, then you are doing the very thing
you say Jesus is used to teach! Is that what you really want?
Then keep doing what you are doing and teaching this way,
and you will be right, that this keeps division going. As you are doing yourself.

By your definition then all the prophets of Israel that stood up against their fellow Israelites and the authorities were bullies and were teaching division even though most of the people were united against them... Justice is a double edged sword unfortunately even though it is meant to be Justice for all I have found it is limited to a select group meaning JUST US.... So the majority of people are judged harshly and condemned while the ones in the group hiercharchy are treated with kids gloves and get a free get out of jail card with a little slap on the wrist.... If people are following a wrong path and are not given the option of following a correct path does not the sin of not showing then fall at the feet of those who know the truth... At the very least it should be pointed out to them so that they are given all the information to make an educated choice... Is that being divisive according to your definition... If 20 divided by 4 equals 5 and I see that but you teach the answer is 7 either knowingly or unknowingly is it not my place to point that out to you and those you teach... Or should I just let you stay in your darkness and laugh at you behind your back....Your definition is narrow there are many grey areas in life and square pegs do not fit into round holes unless they are forced to bow down to the majority rules because some Johnny come later declared they were being divisive... You want Restorative " Justice " then people must swallow their pride and fess up and admit when they are wrong... We call that Teshuva.... Numbers don't matter only the truth does....

Dear shimon if we agree on the path of restorative justice and showing ppl how to correct what's wrong, that's perfect. Let's focus there.

To help ppl with confessing forgiving and correcting all these wrongs going on, I usually focus on what each person prioritizes as the most critical problem they want to address or are called to work on.

Which problem do you find is most urgent to correct first, so that everything else will follow from there.

Do you feel it is wrong ways of teaching the Bible that lead ppl astray and that's the most pressing point?

Let's start with what your calling is, and apply restorative justice means of correcting those misteachings or other problems related.

Which problems do you find need to be fixed first?

Well to be blunt there are a number of issues that should be addressed the number one priority is the rebuilding of the temple.... The temple is or should be for all peoples so that they can learn or be instructed in the original concepts that people today have deviated so far from.... There is great misunderstanding in what the rebuilding of the temple will accomplish... It will be a place of learning and teaching and tolerance and respect... It will be a platform and a focal point and the light( which is truth and knowledge) will shine forth from there and eclipse any false teachings..... Now the light that should be shone on these false teachings should esp be shone on the disgusting teachings of death worship where people are taught errounously that life is in death and that death is to be desired over life.... This could not be further from the truth and not only spits in gds face because it sells his gift of life short but it rips off the people it is taught to by teaching them to not be all they can be in this life and it shortchanges mankind because it has held us back from tremendous advances .. For example we could have conquered death many years ago but because of church policies and the policies of other religious authorities we have not achieved it yet which is just a sad fact....The other thing is that as death over life policy has encouraged suicide bombers to brazenly take their own lives and others because of false promises of a wonderful afterlife.....Another major major issue that must be addressed is Idol Worship if one looks in the dictionary one can see that it spells out that worship of a person is indeed a form of idol worship plus there are many warnings in the tanach or Jewish scriptures pointing this out... The warnings are esp graphic in Isaiah 44 verses 9, 13 and 17 and point out the Ash Wednesday symbolism in verse 20... The worship and adulation of the one called Jesus fits idol worship to a tee and is a terrible thing to hold over people's heads and blocks them from a true path to Gd the father....if you are serious about this then those are very good places to start but words can be cheap it is actions that count....

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear shimon the universal Messiah or Message is of Divine peace and justice. God's unifying truth love will and laws embodied in man to reconcile our individual will with God's perfect will.

This embracing and receiving of justice by perfect love happens for each person on God's timing.

That's what Jesus in the Bible represents: the reconciliation of man and God in harmony and truth that sets us free from suffering and strife from sins separating us from God.

If you look up Restorative Justice, that is the closest real world equivalent of explaining the meaning of Christ Jesus in secular terms even an atheist can understand. The message is That Universal where everyone will receive.

You are right there has been a whole history of corruption from material greed and selfishness . The solution to this is divine forgiveness so we may receive correction and healing, restoring good faith relations and good will or God's will for all humanity as one body or family in the Kingdom of God bringing heavenly peace on Earth.

If you want to see a good witness to the power of forgiveness and healing In Christ Jesus, look up Peter Loth who teaches how this grace fulfills both his path as a Jewish believer, and all paths for all people healed and United by divine forgiveness and grace.

When we all receive and embody this Message. That is the Messiah that comes for all humanity to establish Gods universal truth justice and peace. Many people have already received this universal message and live in spiritual peace or the kingdom of God, and it will take all humanity doing the same for this to be fully manifested worldwide and beyond, on all levels inside and out, individually and globally, on earth as it is in heaven. May God's will be done and received with perfect grace, healing and comfort for all.

With all due respect The Jesus you speak of are just empty words written on a scroll or paper.. He does the opposite of what you preach and teach...He takes people away from Gd... You realize that Jesus is a figment of the writers of the new testaments mind and was given breath and life in words... This person that you adore never existed and was the amalgamation of many people their lives and the myths and fables associated with him.... The Jesus you speak of is the Logos in the books own words.It means he is The WORD nothing more nothing less.... Mere ink on a story that Christians change and rehash and rechange whenever they feel the need that is why you have so many many versions so you can change your lying word( your Jesus) to fit whatever is needed...Prince of Peace indeed... The faith in him and his fables have brought peace alright but not the peace you preach but has split the world into many PIECES and factions each one trying to control and fight with one another as he said in your book so eloquently he brought division father against son son against mother brother against brother... Great job is you asked me of bringing PIECE.... Great indeed....

Dear shimon
It depends how Jesus is taught.
Again, I have explained as teaching Justice in two ways:
Retributive Justice
and
Restorative Justice.

I find that Restorative Justice unites.
You are saying that Jesus divides,
which is retributive justice to judge and reject.
You are doing this now, so you are part of that way of teaching.
Divisive.

I keep including you but you keep rejecting.

So you are proof of how the division happens.
Don't blame it on Jesus if you are doing that yourself.

My way of teaching is to include BOTH ways:
use retributive justice for people who live that way, like bullies,
and it takes a bigger bully to confront the other bullies to give
them a taste of their own medicine
use Restorative Justice for those who live by justice with mercy

So this way includes and explains BOTH ways.

Your way only points to the judgment/rejection/division type.
If you are teaching that, then you are doing the very thing
you say Jesus is used to teach! Is that what you really want?
Then keep doing what you are doing and teaching this way,
and you will be right, that this keeps division going. As you are doing yourself.

By your definition then all the prophets of Israel that stood up against their fellow Israelites and the authorities were bullies and were teaching division even though most of the people were united against them... Justice is a double edged sword unfortunately even though it is meant to be Justice for all I have found it is limited to a select group meaning JUST US.... So the majority of people are judged harshly and condemned while the ones in the group hiercharchy are treated with kids gloves and get a free get out of jail card with a little slap on the wrist.... If people are following a wrong path and are not given the option of following a correct path does not the sin of not showing then fall at the feet of those who know the truth... At the very least it should be pointed out to them so that they are given all the information to make an educated choice... Is that being divisive according to your definition... If 20 divided by 4 equals 5 and I see that but you teach the answer is 7 either knowingly or unknowingly is it not my place to point that out to you and those you teach... Or should I just let you stay in your darkness and laugh at you behind your back....Your definition is narrow there are many grey areas in life and square pegs do not fit into round holes unless they are forced to bow down to the majority rules because some Johnny come later declared they were being divisive... You want Restorative " Justice " then people must swallow their pride and fess up and admit when they are wrong... We call that Teshuva.... Numbers don't matter only the truth does....

Dear shimon if we agree on the path of restorative justice and showing ppl how to correct what's wrong, that's perfect. Let's focus there.

To help ppl with confessing forgiving and correcting all these wrongs going on, I usually focus on what each person prioritizes as the most critical problem they want to address or are called to work on.

Which problem do you find is most urgent to correct first, so that everything else will follow from there.

Do you feel it is wrong ways of teaching the Bible that lead ppl astray and that's the most pressing point?

Let's start with what your calling is, and apply restorative justice means of correcting those misteachings or other problems related.

Which problems do you find need to be fixed first?

Well to be blunt there are a number of issues that should be addressed the number one priority is the rebuilding of the temple.... The temple is or should be for all peoples so that they can learn or be instructed in the original concepts that people today have deviated so far from.... There is great misunderstanding in what the rebuilding of the temple will accomplish... It will be a place of learning and teaching and tolerance and respect... It will be a platform and a focal point and the light( which is truth and knowledge) will shine forth from there and eclipse any false teachings..... Now the light that should be shone on these false teachings should esp be shone on the disgusting teachings of death worship where people are taught errounously that life is in death and that death is to be desired over life.... This could not be further from the truth and not only spits in gds face because it sells his gift of life short but it rips off the people it is taught to by teaching them to not be all they can be in this life and it shortchanges mankind because it has held us back from tremendous advances .. For example we could have conquered death many years ago but because of church policies and the policies of other religious authorities we have not achieved it yet which is just a sad fact....The other thing is that as death over life policy has encouraged suicide bombers to brazenly take their own lives and others because of false promises of a wonderful afterlife.....Another major major issue that must be addressed is Idol Worship if one looks in the dictionary one can see that it spells out that worship of a person is indeed a form of idol worship plus there are many warnings in the tanach or Jewish scriptures pointing this out... The warnings are esp graphic in Isaiah 44 verses 9, 13 and 17 and point out the Ash Wednesday symbolism in verse 20... The worship and adulation of the one called Jesus fits idol worship to a tee and is a terrible thing to hold over people's heads and blocks them from a true path to Gd the father....if you are serious about this then those are very good places to start but words can be cheap it is actions that count....

1. Okay for building the temple
Are you okay with the interpretation this is a spiritual Israel and the 12 tribes is symbolic of 12 denominations.
Or do you read this literally as only the geographic Israel and temple there, and th e 12 tribes of Israel are the literal ones named in the past
2. It's clear you and I agree that the correct teachings focus on life not feath. So isn't it ironic that I WAS teaching the right focus on LIFE.
But you kept negating this and you were teaching it as "only meaning Death". Why would you insist on teaching it means only the false interpretation , and totally ignore all the people teaching it to mean LIFE.

shimon I would understand if you WANT and AGREE with the death teaching that you would only accept and promote that Death way of teaching it.

But since you clearly believe gods truth is about life, why would you negate reject and exclude teaching it this way that aligns with God's truth.

Can you explain why you would keep teaching it the wrong way and not contrast that by teaching the right ways?

 

[HaShev]

Emily Deut is clear, and you want to muck it up.
Actually you've yet to say anything regarding this topic in clarity. Like a preacher or politician you like to talk around the subject and throw out contradicting and non substance commentary that never follows any actual clear position or path backed by any reason or clarity.
Are you a pastor?
You are making no sense and taking this subject off course.

Deuteronomy\Devarim: 30:19 I call heaven
and earth to witness against you this
day,That I have set before you life and
death, the blessing and the curse;Therefore
choose life, that you may live, you and your
children.

 

[HaShev]

Deut makes it clear;
Deut 18:10There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, 11 or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
(Jesus, Rod Parsley, &BENNY HINN TYPES)

 

[hobelim]

Resting under the fig tree means they will have rest from being chased from country to country or place to place.. You know the story of Job where he is given no rest... This is the story of my people who were chased from place to place.. It just means at the time of the final redemption they will be able eveyman to rest not only from persecution but from work as well and all their labours..
Only in our times or the not to distant future will this be available... A true sabbath.. You understand the poetic nature of the Hebrews many do not and only see fables and stories...

I disagree.

The imagery is an allusion to the reversal of the condemnation of Adam.

A man resting under the shade of his own fig tree means that at the time of redemption "the sweat of the brow", thinking, instead of producing only thorns and thistles, a mans own mind will finally produce fruit that is pleasing to the eye and good to eat..

.....and there no longer will be any curse.


Until then there is work to do. Prune your tree and then stand guard over the purity of your own mind every day and every night for as long as you live. Do it for yourself and do it for your children who turn to you when they need something good to eat. There will be plenty of time for you to rest when you are dead.

 

[shimon]

Resting under the fig tree means they will have rest from being chased from country to country or place to place.. You know the story of Job where he is given no rest... This is the story of my people who were chased from place to place.. It just means at the time of the final redemption they will be able eveyman to rest not only from persecution but from work as well and all their labours..
Only in our times or the not to distant future will this be available... A true sabbath.. You understand the poetic nature of the Hebrews many do not and only see fables and stories...

I disagree.

The imagery is an allusion to the reversal of the condemnation of Adam.

A man resting under the shade of his own fig tree means that at the time of redemption "the sweat of the brow", thinking, instead of producing only thorns and thistles, a mans own mind will finally produce fruit that is pleasing to the eye and good to eat..

.....and there no longer will be any curse.


Until then there is work to do. Prune your tree and then stand guard over the purity of your own mind every day and every night for as long as you live. Do it for yourself and do it for your children who turn to you when they need something good to eat. There will be plenty of time for you to rest when you are dead.

Alright Hobe you are entitled to your opinion but keep in mind that in 1 st kings 4 : 25 it says During Solomon's lifetime Judah and Israel lived in safety under their own Vine and fig tree and the next verse describes the chariots and horsemen that Solomon had at his disposal to quarentee their safety... So their safety was quarenteed by the King( who had authority over them) but they had their own area that was theirs to rest...Remember after the Jews were dispersed out of Israel they were powerless each individual as they were forced to travel from place to place and every time they tried to rest under their fig tree it was either taken from them or they were forced to the next place ... On a further note I would like to point out to you that during the times of Hillel and other great sages it was customary for the teacher to sit on a pillow while his students sat on the floor because the teacher was symbolically higher up in his learning and understanding...If one of the students asked a question or explained a passage in scripture that was deeper in understanding then what the teacher knew and any in the class then the teacher would sit on the floor for that day and would give the pillow to the student whose understanding may have been deeper then his own on that subject... In this way we learn and increase our knowledge by taking into consideration what others think as they may have a better answer and that is how mankind can progress by losing their ego for the greater good...

 

[shimon]

With all due respect The Jesus you speak of are just empty words written on a scroll or paper.. He does the opposite of what you preach and teach...He takes people away from Gd... You realize that Jesus is a figment of the writers of the new testaments mind and was given breath and life in words... This person that you adore never existed and was the amalgamation of many people their lives and the myths and fables associated with him.... The Jesus you speak of is the Logos in the books own words.It means he is The WORD nothing more nothing less.... Mere ink on a story that Christians change and rehash and rechange whenever they feel the need that is why you have so many many versions so you can change your lying word( your Jesus) to fit whatever is needed...Prince of Peace indeed... The faith in him and his fables have brought peace alright but not the peace you preach but has split the world into many PIECES and factions each one trying to control and fight with one another as he said in your book so eloquently he brought division father against son son against mother brother against brother... Great job is you asked me of bringing PIECE.... Great indeed....

Dear shimon
It depends how Jesus is taught.
Again, I have explained as teaching Justice in two ways:
Retributive Justice
and
Restorative Justice.

I find that Restorative Justice unites.
You are saying that Jesus divides,
which is retributive justice to judge and reject.
You are doing this now, so you are part of that way of teaching.
Divisive.

I keep including you but you keep rejecting.

So you are proof of how the division happens.
Don't blame it on Jesus if you are doing that yourself.

My way of teaching is to include BOTH ways:
use retributive justice for people who live that way, like bullies,
and it takes a bigger bully to confront the other bullies to give
them a taste of their own medicine
use Restorative Justice for those who live by justice with mercy

So this way includes and explains BOTH ways.

Your way only points to the judgment/rejection/division type.
If you are teaching that, then you are doing the very thing
you say Jesus is used to teach! Is that what you really want?
Then keep doing what you are doing and teaching this way,
and you will be right, that this keeps division going. As you are doing yourself.

By your definition then all the prophets of Israel that stood up against their fellow Israelites and the authorities were bullies and were teaching division even though most of the people were united against them... Justice is a double edged sword unfortunately even though it is meant to be Justice for all I have found it is limited to a select group meaning JUST US.... So the majority of people are judged harshly and condemned while the ones in the group hiercharchy are treated with kids gloves and get a free get out of jail card with a little slap on the wrist.... If people are following a wrong path and are not given the option of following a correct path does not the sin of not showing then fall at the feet of those who know the truth... At the very least it should be pointed out to them so that they are given all the information to make an educated choice... Is that being divisive according to your definition... If 20 divided by 4 equals 5 and I see that but you teach the answer is 7 either knowingly or unknowingly is it not my place to point that out to you and those you teach... Or should I just let you stay in your darkness and laugh at you behind your back....Your definition is narrow there are many grey areas in life and square pegs do not fit into round holes unless they are forced to bow down to the majority rules because some Johnny come later declared they were being divisive... You want Restorative " Justice " then people must swallow their pride and fess up and admit when they are wrong... We call that Teshuva.... Numbers don't matter only the truth does....

Dear shimon if we agree on the path of restorative justice and showing ppl how to correct what's wrong, that's perfect. Let's focus there.

To help ppl with confessing forgiving and correcting all these wrongs going on, I usually focus on what each person prioritizes as the most critical problem they want to address or are called to work on.

Which problem do you find is most urgent to correct first, so that everything else will follow from there.

Do you feel it is wrong ways of teaching the Bible that lead ppl astray and that's the most pressing point?

Let's start with what your calling is, and apply restorative justice means of correcting those misteachings or other problems related.

Which problems do you find need to be fixed first?

Well to be blunt there are a number of issues that should be addressed the number one priority is the rebuilding of the temple.... The temple is or should be for all peoples so that they can learn or be instructed in the original concepts that people today have deviated so far from.... There is great misunderstanding in what the rebuilding of the temple will accomplish... It will be a place of learning and teaching and tolerance and respect... It will be a platform and a focal point and the light( which is truth and knowledge) will shine forth from there and eclipse any false teachings..... Now the light that should be shone on these false teachings should esp be shone on the disgusting teachings of death worship where people are taught errounously that life is in death and that death is to be desired over life.... This could not be further from the truth and not only spits in gds face because it sells his gift of life short but it rips off the people it is taught to by teaching them to not be all they can be in this life and it shortchanges mankind because it has held us back from tremendous advances .. For example we could have conquered death many years ago but because of church policies and the policies of other religious authorities we have not achieved it yet which is just a sad fact....The other thing is that as death over life policy has encouraged suicide bombers to brazenly take their own lives and others because of false promises of a wonderful afterlife.....Another major major issue that must be addressed is Idol Worship if one looks in the dictionary one can see that it spells out that worship of a person is indeed a form of idol worship plus there are many warnings in the tanach or Jewish scriptures pointing this out... The warnings are esp graphic in Isaiah 44 verses 9, 13 and 17 and point out the Ash Wednesday symbolism in verse 20... The worship and adulation of the one called Jesus fits idol worship to a tee and is a terrible thing to hold over people's heads and blocks them from a true path to Gd the father....if you are serious about this then those are very good places to start but words can be cheap it is actions that count....

1. Okay for building the temple
Are you okay with the interpretation this is a spiritual Israel and the 12 tribes is symbolic of 12 denominations.
Or do you read this literally as only the geographic Israel and temple there, and th e 12 tribes of Israel are the literal ones named in the past
2. It's clear you and I agree that the correct teachings focus on life not feath. So isn't it ironic that I WAS teaching the right focus on LIFE.
But you kept negating this and you were teaching it as "only meaning Death". Why would you insist on teaching it means only the false interpretation , and totally ignore all the people teaching it to mean LIFE.

shimon I would understand if you WANT and AGREE with the death teaching that you would only accept and promote that Death way of teaching it.

But since you clearly believe gods truth is about life, why would you negate reject and exclude teaching it this way that aligns with God's truth.

Can you explain why you would keep teaching it the wrong way and not contrast that by teaching the right ways?

Emily I am disappointed in you and I now see where you are coming from and will treat you accordingly...You are talking out of both sides of your mouth and like pharaoh did claiming to be both the morning and evening star....I would point out to you that since you follow the Roman way and you want things the RIGHT way keep in mind that the Romans persecuted all who were not Right. They killed and chased out any Lefties because they considered them sinister.. Keep in mind that to the Roman Might was RIGHT... Since Christianity has the numbers and the Might that must be Right but remember it was always the few in number that did the Right thing in gds eyes.... Wink....

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear shimon
It depends how Jesus is taught.
Again, I have explained as teaching Justice in two ways:
Retributive Justice
and
Restorative Justice.

I find that Restorative Justice unites.
You are saying that Jesus divides,
which is retributive justice to judge and reject.
You are doing this now, so you are part of that way of teaching.
Divisive.

I keep including you but you keep rejecting.

So you are proof of how the division happens.
Don't blame it on Jesus if you are doing that yourself.

My way of teaching is to include BOTH ways:
use retributive justice for people who live that way, like bullies,
and it takes a bigger bully to confront the other bullies to give
them a taste of their own medicine
use Restorative Justice for those who live by justice with mercy

So this way includes and explains BOTH ways.

Your way only points to the judgment/rejection/division type.
If you are teaching that, then you are doing the very thing
you say Jesus is used to teach! Is that what you really want?
Then keep doing what you are doing and teaching this way,
and you will be right, that this keeps division going. As you are doing yourself.

By your definition then all the prophets of Israel that stood up against their fellow Israelites and the authorities were bullies and were teaching division even though most of the people were united against them... Justice is a double edged sword unfortunately even though it is meant to be Justice for all I have found it is limited to a select group meaning JUST US.... So the majority of people are judged harshly and condemned while the ones in the group hiercharchy are treated with kids gloves and get a free get out of jail card with a little slap on the wrist.... If people are following a wrong path and are not given the option of following a correct path does not the sin of not showing then fall at the feet of those who know the truth... At the very least it should be pointed out to them so that they are given all the information to make an educated choice... Is that being divisive according to your definition... If 20 divided by 4 equals 5 and I see that but you teach the answer is 7 either knowingly or unknowingly is it not my place to point that out to you and those you teach... Or should I just let you stay in your darkness and laugh at you behind your back....Your definition is narrow there are many grey areas in life and square pegs do not fit into round holes unless they are forced to bow down to the majority rules because some Johnny come later declared they were being divisive... You want Restorative " Justice " then people must swallow their pride and fess up and admit when they are wrong... We call that Teshuva.... Numbers don't matter only the truth does....

Dear shimon if we agree on the path of restorative justice and showing ppl how to correct what's wrong, that's perfect. Let's focus there.

To help ppl with confessing forgiving and correcting all these wrongs going on, I usually focus on what each person prioritizes as the most critical problem they want to address or are called to work on.

Which problem do you find is most urgent to correct first, so that everything else will follow from there.

Do you feel it is wrong ways of teaching the Bible that lead ppl astray and that's the most pressing point?

Let's start with what your calling is, and apply restorative justice means of correcting those misteachings or other problems related.

Which problems do you find need to be fixed first?

Well to be blunt there are a number of issues that should be addressed the number one priority is the rebuilding of the temple.... The temple is or should be for all peoples so that they can learn or be instructed in the original concepts that people today have deviated so far from.... There is great misunderstanding in what the rebuilding of the temple will accomplish... It will be a place of learning and teaching and tolerance and respect... It will be a platform and a focal point and the light( which is truth and knowledge) will shine forth from there and eclipse any false teachings..... Now the light that should be shone on these false teachings should esp be shone on the disgusting teachings of death worship where people are taught errounously that life is in death and that death is to be desired over life.... This could not be further from the truth and not only spits in gds face because it sells his gift of life short but it rips off the people it is taught to by teaching them to not be all they can be in this life and it shortchanges mankind because it has held us back from tremendous advances .. For example we could have conquered death many years ago but because of church policies and the policies of other religious authorities we have not achieved it yet which is just a sad fact....The other thing is that as death over life policy has encouraged suicide bombers to brazenly take their own lives and others because of false promises of a wonderful afterlife.....Another major major issue that must be addressed is Idol Worship if one looks in the dictionary one can see that it spells out that worship of a person is indeed a form of idol worship plus there are many warnings in the tanach or Jewish scriptures pointing this out... The warnings are esp graphic in Isaiah 44 verses 9, 13 and 17 and point out the Ash Wednesday symbolism in verse 20... The worship and adulation of the one called Jesus fits idol worship to a tee and is a terrible thing to hold over people's heads and blocks them from a true path to Gd the father....if you are serious about this then those are very good places to start but words can be cheap it is actions that count....

1. Okay for building the temple
Are you okay with the interpretation this is a spiritual Israel and the 12 tribes is symbolic of 12 denominations.
Or do you read this literally as only the geographic Israel and temple there, and th e 12 tribes of Israel are the literal ones named in the past
2. It's clear you and I agree that the correct teachings focus on life not feath. So isn't it ironic that I WAS teaching the right focus on LIFE.
But you kept negating this and you were teaching it as "only meaning Death". Why would you insist on teaching it means only the false interpretation , and totally ignore all the people teaching it to mean LIFE.

shimon I would understand if you WANT and AGREE with the death teaching that you would only accept and promote that Death way of teaching it.

But since you clearly believe gods truth is about life, why would you negate reject and exclude teaching it this way that aligns with God's truth.

Can you explain why you would keep teaching it the wrong way and not contrast that by teaching the right ways?

Emily I am disappointed in you and I now see where you are coming from and will treat you accordingly...You are talking out of both sides of your mouth and like pharaoh did claiming to be both the morning and evening star....I would point out to you that since you follow the Roman way and you want things the RIGHT way keep in mind that the Romans persecuted all who were not Right. They killed and chased out any Lefties because they considered them sinister.. Keep in mind that to the Roman Might was RIGHT... Since Christianity has the numbers and the Might that must be Right but remember it was always the few in number that did the Right thing in gds eyes.... Wink....

I don't get where you are getting that.

I am acknowledging there are positive and negative ways of teaching the same Bible and Jesus. I am agreeing with you that the right teachings should be taught and the conflicting ways should be corrected.


That's like a math teacher saying if you use the numbers this way you get the right answer. But if you mess up the steps and don't correct it you get conflicting or wrong answers.

Both the right way and the wrong way
Use the same numbers and symbols.

That's not talking out of both sides of the mouth to teach math by pointing out the difference between the right ways and the wrong ways.

Can you explain where you are getting such a negative impression?
Note: neither you nor I said anything about the corrections we support having Anything to do with "persecutions" where did you make this leap? I thought it was clear we both support a restorative approach not a punitive approach preaching death and destruction.


What am I saying unclear where it is causing such confusion?

If we just need to focus on correcting what we both agree is bad teaching , at least we agree on that.

I don't get where the miscommuncation is coming from. But that is common online trying to discuss fine complex distinctions in politics or religion. If this is just too confusing, and the more I try to clarify what I mean it merely comes across backwards to you like I'm saying the opposite of what I mean, lets not go there. We can just focus on what you are saying, that I agree with, and that isn't getting confused or twisted backwards beyond recognition.

Since you understand what you are trying to say, but you cannot understand when I try to say something, it makes more sense to follow your language and lead.

I agree with you that false teachings should be corrected in positive ways. And I asked you questions on if you mean the building of the temple involves literal Israel the geographic nation, or if you mean spiritual Israel the body of believers.

Let's start there. I think the other way is just too confusing and not working online. It happens.

 

[HaShev]

Emily,
What Jesus? Who the hell is Jesus?
WHAT are you talking about, be thorough in explaining, not just general broadstroke banter.
Who is this Jesus you speak of as in,
what is his actual Greek spelled name this English re-transliteration came from.
What Jew uses a Greek name not a Hebrew name, why would you change a name unless he wasn't Jewish?
What era did this confused character live in and when born to what age-year died?
Who was his mother and father?
How tall was he?
What profession did he have and in what town was his hometown?
WHEN AND WHY did this greek name idol go to Egypt?
How did this idol die? By whom was he punished and why?
Did he ransack the Temple tables?
Was Lysanias and King Herod in his era or not? How about Pilate?

 

[emilynghiem]

Emily,
What Jesus? Who the hell is Jesus?
WHAT are you talking about, be thorough in explaining, not just general broadstroke banter.
Who is this Jesus you speak of as in,
what is his actual Greek spelled name this English re-transliteration came from.
What Jew uses a Greek name not a Hebrew name, why would you change a name unless he wasn't Jewish?
What era did this confused character live in and when born to what age-year died?
Who was his mother and father?
How tall was he?
What profession did he have and in what town was his hometown?
WHEN AND WHY did this greek name idol go to Egypt?
How did this idol die? By whom was he punished and why?
Did he ransack the Temple tables?
Was Lysanias and King Herod in his era or not? How about Pilate?

Dear HaShev
Whatever symbolic, historic, divine figure or natural man Jesus people point to in the Bible,
I am saying this Jesus as universal messiah for all humanity
REPRESENTS universal Justice,
Justice with Mercy, Peace and Justice,
Equal Justice under law, Restorative Justice.

No, you don't have to reference, believe, or use this Jesus
if you don't relate to that.

Regardless, I'm saying that is what the meaning is,
whether Jesus is historical or merely symbolic mythology.

Same with not being able to prove or define what God is universally.
Instead I offer to focus on what Aspect or meaning of God they do relate
to. But don't need to use or believe in a personified God to symbolize this meaning:

God as life, creation the universe
God as the forces of nature, universal laws, collective truth
God as wisdom, truth, love
God as good will for all, beneficence, driving forces of life and survival
God as creator, source of life, etc.

The same way not all people need to use a personified God
to express their beliefs about life and laws in the world,
people do not need to follow the Biblical traditions in teaching Jesus
in symbolic terms as Son of God or God incarnate which makes no sense to a lot of people.
As a secular gentile I never learned or understood Jesus that way,
so I totally understand if other nontheists don't relate to this either.

How I explain the symbolism is that "Jesus" represents
divine/universal JUSTICE embodied on the human level.

So when we embrace and join in agreement in this spirit of
justice that restores relationship and establishes truth,
that is the Meaning of Jesus, whether symbolic or historic, real or imagined.

Justice is just as faith based.
As long as we believe in Restorative Justice, that's the real meaning
that unites uplifts and restores humanity to our original natural balance in peace and harmony.

 

[HaShev]

See like a politician or preacher that answers no questions asked. *L*
You have the same preceptcof God but you have no universal Messiah.
only the forbidden sun worship and death cults are universal combined (mystery babylon) but all the major religions and cultures have nothing in common with the mixture Rome created and made The idol Jesus to be the new face of the same Baal scam.
Saying we are universally drawn to Lucifer is disturbingly sad.

 

[shimon]

Unfortunately my take as well...Can't give up the idol.....

 

[emilynghiem]

See like a politician or preacher that answers no questions asked. *L*
You have the same preceptcof God but you have no universal Messiah.
only the forbidden sun worship and death cults are universal combined (mystery babylon) but all the major religions and cultures have nothing in common with the mixture Rome created and made The idol Jesus to be the new face of the same Baal scam.
Saying we are universally drawn to Lucifer is disturbingly sad.

Dear HaShev
I DID ANSWER YOUR QUESTION
I SAID JESUS MEANS JUSTICE under secular laws
under scriptural laws YESHUA means SALVATION

WHAT DO YOU NOT GET ABOUT THAT

ARE YOU GOING TO BLAME ME THAT GOD
HAS 99 NAMES AND PEOPLE MAY CALL GOD
BY DIFFERENT NAMES FROM YHWH TO WISDOM?

FOR YOU, WHAT GOD AND JESUS MEAN TO YOU
IS DIFFERENT FROM AN ATHEIST, A BUDDHIST
OR A MUSLIM WHO EXPERIENCES GOD IN A DIFFERENT WAY

WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVING DIFFERENT ANSWERS
FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE???

 

[hobelim]

Resting under the fig tree means they will have rest from being chased from country to country or place to place.. You know the story of Job where he is given no rest... This is the story of my people who were chased from place to place.. It just means at the time of the final redemption they will be able eveyman to rest not only from persecution but from work as well and all their labours..
Only in our times or the not to distant future will this be available... A true sabbath.. You understand the poetic nature of the Hebrews many do not and only see fables and stories...

I disagree.

The imagery is an allusion to the reversal of the condemnation of Adam.

A man resting under the shade of his own fig tree means that at the time of redemption "the sweat of the brow", thinking, instead of producing only thorns and thistles, a mans own mind will finally produce fruit that is pleasing to the eye and good to eat..

.....and there no longer will be any curse.


Until then there is work to do. Prune your tree and then stand guard over the purity of your own mind every day and every night for as long as you live. Do it for yourself and do it for your children who turn to you when they need something good to eat. There will be plenty of time for you to rest when you are dead.

Alright Hobe you are entitled to your opinion but keep in mind that in 1 st kings 4 : 25 it says During Solomon's lifetime Judah and Israel lived in safety under their own Vine and fig tree and the next verse describes the chariots and horsemen that Solomon had at his disposal to quarentee their safety... So their safety was quarenteed by the King( who had authority over them) but they had their own area that was theirs to rest...Remember after the Jews were dispersed out of Israel they were powerless each individual as they were forced to travel from place to place and every time they tried to rest under their fig tree it was either taken from them or they were forced to the next place ... On a further note I would like to point out to you that during the times of Hillel and other great sages it was customary for the teacher to sit on a pillow while his students sat on the floor because the teacher was symbolically higher up in his learning and understanding...If one of the students asked a question or explained a passage in scripture that was deeper in understanding then what the teacher knew and any in the class then the teacher would sit on the floor for that day and would give the pillow to the student whose understanding may have been deeper then his own on that subject... In this way we learn and increase our knowledge by taking into consideration what others think as they may have a better answer and that is how mankind can progress by losing their ego for the greater good...

I agree that the expression symbolizes peace, safety and security but as I pointed out there is an implied connection to the peace safety and security lost after the condemnation of Adam and his expulsion from Eden where there were many trees whose fruit was pleasing to the eye and good to eat which symbolizes people with fruitful minds.

the promise for man to return to a state where one can find rest under the shade of their own fig tree is a promise of a reversal of the curse on the mind of man to be fruitless, to always be seeking peace but never finding it, the mind perpetually working but never producing anything but thorns and thistles...

 

[HaShev]

Emily you can scream it in red type and it would still not answer my questions.
Are you saying his Greek name is Jesus and Hebrew Yeshua?
That would be wrong.
IESOUS became our transliteration Jesus
and no christ figure existed named Yeshua.
That's a name given by deception by missionaries trying to make the figure YHWH.
Y'hshua was the mentor Rabbi of Yeshu of 100bc but Yohoshua was not a messianic figure. Thatcs why you refused to answer what era your Jesus came from.
You have to avoid and lie to cover up the lies.

 

[foggedinn]

I put Joyce Meyer's in the same category as Beth Moore. Both are clear examples of the Devine truth written by Paul. Women should not teach in the Church.
You did get me to read Ezekiel 28 again. I was curious as to why you believed that this chapter refered to the Son of perdition. I see the similar language, but believe you are wrong.
Both Ezekiel 14 and Isaiah 28 do refer to him. He is the scapegoat of Leviticus 16. In Daniel, he is Michael the great prince.
It is hard enough for a Christ believer to understand prophesy in the NT. It is futile for a non Christ believer to even attempt it.

 

[HaShev]

Perdition means to fall to the pit, a description used in Ezekiel 28 which is why Preachers themselves say that chaptwr is about the son of perdition, aka Lucifer the false prophet claimed as a god.
The only one ever to be claimed Nazarene=guardian (cherub) full of beauty perfection falling to the pit(acts 2:27 & 1 Peter 3:19) for claiming to be a god by the hands of Rome (seas) was the Jesus myth which was a created image of a man which Ezekiel 28 also mentions.
Chapter 27 context helps describe Tyre ruled by Rome, but is really describing Rome's military authority Ships=Rome's army in revolter's hidden slang. Ez 27 is like Isaiah 44 warning of their carving an idol and fashioning it to be the image of perfection.
You should always read the Tanakh version of the OT never the NT translations.

7 Therefore, behold I am bringing foreigners, the strong of the nations, upon you, and they will draw their swords on the beauty of your wisdom and profane your brightness.
לָכֵן הִנְנִי מֵבִיא עָלֶיךָ זָרִים עָרִיצֵי גּוֹיִם וְהֵרִיקוּ חַרְבוֹתָם עַל יְפִי חָכְמָתֶךָ וְחִלְּלוּ יִפְעָתֶךָ :
8 Into the Pit they will lower you, and you will die the deaths of those who are slain, in the heart of the seas.
לַשַּׁחַת יוֹרִדוּךָ וָמַתָּה מְמוֹתֵי חָלָל בְּלֵב יַמִּים :
9 Will you say, "I am a god" before your slayer? Indeed, you are a man and not a god in the hand of your slayer.
הֶאָמֹר תֹּאמַר אֱלֹהִים אָנִי לִפְנֵי הֹרְגֶךָ וְאַתָּה אָדָם וְלֹא אֵל בְּיַד מְחַלְלֶךָ :
10 The deaths of the uncircumcised you shall die at the hand of foreigners, for I have spoken," says the Lord God.
מוֹתֵי עֲרֵלִים תָּמוּת בְּיַד זָרִים כִּי אֲנִי דִבַּרְתִּי נְאֻם אֲדֹנָי יֱהֹוִה :
11 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
וַיְהִי דְבַר יְהֹוָה אֵלַי לֵאמֹר :
12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, So said the Lord God: You are the one who engraves images, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
בֶּן אָדָם שָׂא קִינָה עַל מֶלֶךְ צוֹר וְאָמַרְתָּ לּוֹ כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יֱהֹוִה אַתָּה חוֹתֵם תָּכְנִית מָלֵא חָכְמָה וּכְלִיל יֹפִי :
13 In Eden, the garden of God you were; every precious stone was [set in] your covering; ruby, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and crystal and gold; the work of your drums and your orifices is in you; on the day of your creation they were established.
בְּעֵדֶן גַּן אֱלֹהִים הָיִיתָ כָּל אֶבֶן יְקָרָה מְסֻכָתֶךָ אֹדֶם פִּטְדָה וְיַהֲלֹם תַּרְשִׁישׁ שֹׁהַם וְיָשְׁפֵה סַפִּיר נֹפֶךְ וּבָרְקַת וְזָהָב מְלֶאכֶת תֻּפֶּיךָ וּנְקָבֶיךָ בָּךְ בְּיוֹם הִבָּרַאֲךָ כּוֹנָנוּ :
14 You were a cherub of great measure, that covers, and I gave that to you; you were on the mount of the sanctuary of God: you walked among stones of fire.
אַתְּ כְּרוּב מִמְשַׁח הַסּוֹכֵךְ וּנְתַתִּיךָ בְּהַר קֹדֶשׁ אֱלֹהִים הָיִיתָ בְּתוֹךְ אַבְנֵי אֵשׁ הִתְהַלָּכְתָּ :
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created until wrongdoing was found in you.
תָּמִים אַתָּה בִּדְרָכֶיךָ מִיּוֹם הִבָּרְאָךְ עַד נִמְצָא עַוְלָתָה בָּךְ :
16 Because of the multitude of your commerce, they filled you with violence and you sinned, and I shall cast you as profane from the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire.
בְּרֹב רְכֻלָּתְךָ מָלוּ תוֹכְךָ חָמָס וַתֶּחֱטָא וָאֲחַלֶּלְךָ מֵהַר אֱלֹהִים וָאַבֶּדְךָ כְּרוּב הַסּוֹכֵךְ מִתּוֹךְ אַבְנֵי אֵשׁ :
17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty; you destroyed your wisdom with your brightness; I have cast you upon the ground; I have set you before kings to gaze upon you.
גָּבַהּ לִבְּךָ בְּיָפְיֶךָ שִׁחַתָּ חָכְמָתְךָ עַל יִפְעָתֶךָ עַל אֶרֶץ הִשְׁלַכְתִּיךָ לִפְנֵי מְלָכִים נְתַתִּיךָ לְרַאֲוָה בָךְ :
18 Because of the multitude of your iniquities, with the wrongdoing of your commerce, you profaned your sanctity, and I shall bring forth fire out of your midst-it will consume you, and I shall make you ashes on the ground before the eyes of all who see you.
מֵרֹב עֲוֹנֶיךָ בְּעָוֶל רְכֻלָּתְךָ חִלַּלְתָּ מִקְדָּשֶׁיךָ וָאוֹצִא אֵשׁ מִתּוֹכְךָ הִיא אֲכָלַתְךָ וָאֶתֶּנְךָ לְאֵפֶר עַל הָאָרֶץ לְעֵינֵי כָּל רֹאֶיךָ :
19 All who know you among the peoples will wonder over you; you shall be a terror, and you shall be no more, ever."