Debate Now Is it reasonable to think Trump suffers from mental illness? NPD, dementia, something else?

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Xelor said:
Thread Debate Topic/Assertions:
In this thread, posters present arguments for one of the two following positions:
  • Donald Trump appears to have NPD, dementia or another mental disorder/shortcoming (If not dementia or NPD, identify the disorder/shortcoming.).
  • Donald Trump does not appear to have NPD, dementia or any other mental shortcoming.
Thread Discussion/Posting Rules:
As this is the SDF, it goes without saying that Zone 2 Rules are in effect, so if you cannot follow those rules and the following ones, don't post.
  1. You must either expound upon the argument presented in the OP or you must present a fully developed argument (nor a claim that's not supported with an argument) of your own (or expound upon someone else's fully developed argument) to refute the following assertion:
    • Donald Trump does not appear to have NPD, dementia or any other mental shortcoming.
  2. Arguments made for the OP's assertion or for the counter assertion noted above must be presented only with regard to the nature and extent to which they apply to Donald Trump and the extent to which his behaviors and comments do or do not indicate there is a reasonable chance he has NPD. The behaviors and words of other individuals vis a vis whether they exhibit signs of NPD are not eligible for introduction in this thread. This thread is not about how anyone else behaves or whether anyone else seems to suffer from NPD. Those people are not the current President of the United States.
  3. You may not make brief unsubstantiated assertions. You must credible references that literally and contextually support your claims. That means if someone checks your references, they must be found to have taken things out of context, where appropriate have documented methodologies and you can only cite specific quotes Trump made and/or expert opinion. You cannot cite editorial opinion offered by non-mental health professionals.

    As you might glean, this thread is not for people who just want to toss out their or another's partisan and half-baked opinion and be done. It is a thread for people who have a point of view and who've done the research to back it up with solid evidence -- inductive or deductive. It's a thread for people who have something of substance to say and are willing to take the time to present strong cases for them. You don't necessarily have to agree with the central assertion you choose to defend. You just need to put together a strong essay in support of it. You are free to make brief and/or clarifying comments in support of the counter-argument after you've presented your well developed argumentative essay.
___________________________________________________________________________________

I will argue for the following:
  • Donald Trump appears to have NPD, dementia or another mental disorder/shortcoming (If not dementia or NPD, identify the disorder/shortcoming.).

Introduction
Donald Trump says and does all sorts of things that are highly irrational. The man denies or continues(-ed) to question things that were handily shown to be so so. He's attested to things that are clearly shown not to be so. I'm not talking about minor errors or missteps that anyone might make once, be corrected and not make again. I'm not going to give him grief over things like that. I'm talking about things that only people who are losing their cognitive faculties or who have a mental disorder do.

Let me be clear also. This isn't about whether he's smart or not. Having Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is a mental/personality disorder, and being intelligent or not aren't the same things. One can be quite bright and still have NPD.

What is NPD and why is it a problem for a president to have it?
But what is a personality disorder, NPD specifically? It's not being what a layman might call "straight-jacket" crazy, not able to function or what we'd call incompetent. It, NPD in particular, is a pattern of deviant or abnormal behavior that the person doesnā€™t change, even though it causes emotional upsets and trouble with other people at work and in personal relationships. It is not limited to episodes of mental illness, and it is not caused by drug or alcohol use, head injury, or illness. There are about a dozen different behavior patterns classified as personality disorders by DSM. All the personality disorders show up as deviations from normal in one or more of the following:
  • Cognition (i.e. perception, thinking, and interpretation of oneself, other people, and events);
  • Affectivity (i.e. emotional responses);
  • Interpersonal functions; and
  • Impulsivity.
People with NPD wonā€™t (or canā€™t) change their behavior even when it causes problems at work, when other people complain about the way they act, or when their behavior causes a lot of emotional distress to others (or themselves). Narcissists never admit to being distressed by their own behavior -- they always blame other people for any problems.

Narcissists are a danger to others because they are in complete denial of reality and they lack empathy. One of the key presenting traits of narcissists is their utter incapability to empathize, which can manifest itself in a variety of ways:
  • Ignoring requests to cease behavior (such as cheating and lying).
  • Name calling, criticizing, belittling, mean ā€œjokesā€, jabs and put downs (verbal abuse).
  • Arguments surrounding the same issues over and over.
  • Turning around a partnerā€™s concerns to blame him/her and block the conversation.
  • No closure - no apologies, no accountability, no consequences, no change.
  • Narcissists are capable of inflicting physical and psychological harm on others and are unmoved by the plight of those they hurt.
To get more details about how and why NPD can result in leaders not governing well (I'm not talking about just enacting policies you or I don't like), here are some additional references:

The Case for Trump Having Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
First of all, several experts -- psychiatrists and psychologists -- have attested to their conviction that Trump exhibits the signs of NPD. They haven't personally examined him, so they can't completely conclude on their attestation. That said, that they have in in such great numbers made the claim and stipulated that Trump be examined formally is telling. Here's their statement:

We are writing to express our grave concern regarding the mental stability of our President-Elect. Professional standards do not permit us to venture a diagnosis for a public figure whom we have not evaluated personally. Nevertheless, his widely reported symptoms of mental instability ā€” including grandiosity, impulsivity, hypersensitivity to slights or criticism, and an apparent inability to distinguish between fantasy and reality ā€” lead us to question his fitness for the immense responsibilities of the office. We strongly recommend that, in preparation for assuming these responsibilities, he receive a full medical and neuropsychiatric evaluation by an impartial team of investigators.
​
The statement was made by:
  • Judith Herman, M.D.
    Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School
  • Nanette Gartrell, M.D.
    Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, University of California, San Francisco (1988-2011)
    Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School (1983-87)
  • Dee Mosbacher, M.D., Ph.D.
    Assistant Clinical Professor Department of Community Health Systems, University of California, San Francisco (2005-2013)
What's interesting is that they've gone against the guidance of the APA that dissuades mental health professionals from publicly sharing their opinions absent actually conducting an examination. Professionals don't generally risk their professional credentials -- credentials that allow them to earn a decent salary -- just to make a political point. They still have to work, and they can't without remaining credentialed, unless they think they can become the next Dr. Phil.

That's a strange restriction, yet ironically and hypocritically, given all their haranguing about free speech and whatnot, it's one Trump supporters adopt.

You wouldn't expect cardiologists to keep mum about symptoms, causes and/or manifestations of broken bones, heart disease or cancer, would you? Attorneys, accountants, economists, engineers, scientists, and scores of other professionals offer limited opinions about matters pertinent to their disciplines. Even plumbers and auto mechanics and and will make educated predictions about what might be the cause of behaviors your car or toilet exhibits. The statements coming from mental health professionals are no different. They are experts on mental health remarking upon what they see.

The doctors noted above aren't the only mental health professionals, to say nothing of their all being highly regarded ones -- we're not talking armchair psychologists -- who've expressed concerned.

May 2016
​

31-Jan-2017

​


27-Jan-2017 -- Temperament Tantrum: Some say President Donald Trump's personality isn't just flawed, it's dangerous.
John D. Gartner, a practicing psychotherapist who taught psychiatric residents at Johns Hopkins University Medical School, minces as few words as the president in his professional assessment of Trump.

"Donald Trump is dangerously mentally ill and temperamentally incapable of being president," says Gartner, author of "In Search of Bill Clinton: A Psychological Biography." Trump, Gartner says, has "malignant narcissism," which is different from narcissistic personality disorder and which is incurable.

Gartner acknowledges that he has not personally examined Trump, but says it's obvious from Trump's behavior that he meets the diagnostic criteria for the disorder, which include anti-social behavior, sadism, aggressiveness, paranoia and grandiosity. Trump's personality disorder (which includes hypomania) is also displayed through a lack of impulse control and empathy, and "a feeling that people ... don't recognize their greatness.

"We've seen enough public behavior by Donald Trump now that we can make this diagnosis indisputably," says Gartner. His comments run afoul of the so-called Goldwater Rule, the informal term for part of the ethics code of the American Psychiatric Association saying it is wrong to provide a professional opinion of a public figure without examining that person and gaining consent to discuss the evaluation. But Gartner says the Trump case warrants breaking that ethical code.

A Quinnipiac University poll earlier this month, for example, showed that Trump's popularity had dropped, unusually, during the transition, with the president losing ground on matters such as his perceived intelligence, honesty and leadership. In November, 57 percent said Trump is not "level-headed;" the poll by the Connecticut school in January had the not-level-headed number at 62 percent. Further, by a two-to-one margin, Americans said Trump needs to close his Twitter account, which has served as the president's primary way of rallying his base.

"It worked to his advantage but when people are saying they're fed up with it, maybe it's starting to be a minus," says Tim Malloy, assistant director of the poll.

Some of the hypomanic characteristics Gartner says Trump also possesses are also, paradoxically, the very qualities that "made America great," the psychotherapist says. The creativity, confidence and out-of-the-box thinking, is what has driven the nation's most successful entrepreneurs, says Gartner, who has also authored the book "The Hypomanic Edge: The Link Between (A Little) Craziness and (A Lot of) Success in America."
​

NPD is manifest by consistently displaying any five of eight behaviors. Those behaviors are presented below as first "bullet level" items, and examples of those behaviors are shown at lower levels.

That Trump exhibits the signs of NPD is quite clear. What's important is what to do about it, both now and with regard to Trump as well as going forward and regarding future Presidents. The first thing that needs to be done to put the matter to bed to have Trump undergo a legitimate evaluation by independent examiners. Maybe he doesn't have NPD, but it sure looks like it. If it turns out he does have NPD, the what is the country to do about it? Do we just ignore it? Do we implore Congress to apply the 25th Amendment? If the man's ill, the country needs to do something besides just let him run the nation with his disorder running at full tilt.

Looking at this matter going forward, I think it's clear we need an amendment or general law that requires Presidents-Elect or candidates and sitting Presidents to undergo annual mental evaluations, just as they get annual physicals, and have the results be disclosed to the public. Voters have a right to know the president is in good physical and mental health. (Looking at photos of Trump's lardass, it's not even certain the man is in good physical health.)
Click to expand...


Is this your professional medical opinion? Duly noted and rejected as left-wing utter nonsense.
 
It seems a lot of members that have posted in this thread aren't aware of the SDF rules that have been in existence since Feb of 2015. As a reminder....

cereal_killer said:
Debate Now - Structured Discussion Forum
  • Site wide rules apply.
  • Zone 2 rules apply. (thread title and opening post, keep it reasonably civil or risk thread being moved)
  • The OP (original poster) must be written out and in your own words i.e. NO copy/paste or simple links.
  • The OP will clearly state what additional rules (3 or less) will apply to the discussion. The maximum total of three (3) rules MUST be adhered to at all times. Such rules might request that no partisan labels such as Democrat, GOP, liberal, conservative, etc. be used. Or that no specific religion be mentioned. Or no specific person can be named. Or that the discussion is limited to a specific person, document, event, group, etc. Civil or uncivil, whatever the rules will be up to the OP.
  • Members participating in this forum will be expected to follow the rules specified in the OP at all times. NO EXCEPTIONS.
  • It is recommended that any rules specified in the OP be simple, easy to understand, kept to a reasonable minimum, and that they make sense. (If rules are too broad, vague, complicated, restrictive, or numerous, it will be impossible to moderate their intent and purpose.)
Click to expand...

I welcome people expressing their opinions so long as they do so within the constraints of the rules I've set forth in the OP. If you don't want to adhere to those rules, the structure I've defined for this thread, that's fine with me. Don't post in the thread. I'm not looking for quantity in this thread. I'm seeking only high quality substantive debate.

I'm only interested in reading and responding to strong essays that argue either of the two propositions -- they direct opposites of one another -- found at the start of the OP. Obviously if one cares to amplify/expound on the essay I wrote as the OP, you don't need to write another fully developed argument; doing so would just be redundant.

If your opinion is the opposite of mine, great, but you need to share it by staying on topic -- using the counter proposition noted in the OP -- and by delivering a fully developed argument. I hope to see a strong counterargument to mine. I would enjoy having a discussion with someone who presents such an argument.

The rest of you -- those of you who refuse, for whatever reason, to compose a strong argumentative essay -- I'm not here interested in what you have to say because I can find that in the Politics subforum. There are plenty of "tweets," insults, deflections, unsubstantiated claims, etc. posted over there. What I don't find there is really well thought out, well organized and well delivered posts that comprehensively take on a topic.

So if there is only one person who wants to engage at the level I'm requiring in this thread, fine. That's enough as far as I'm concerned. If there isn't one person, well, there just isn't, and that is what it is.
 
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Kat said:
Xelor said:
I will argue for the following:
  • Donald Trump appears to have NPD, dementia or another mental disorder/shortcoming (If not dementia or NPD, identify the disorder/shortcoming.).
Click to expand...



If he were to have such, it isn't very becoming to make fun of, discuss on a message board etc. 3 weeks ago today my mother died of Alzheimer's. Trust me. It is nothing to lightly accuse anyone of having.
Click to expand...

Kat, I'm sorry you lost your mom. It is a hideous disease.
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: Kat
You don't need a weatherman to see which way the wind blows. The Donnie has serious mental illness issues.
 
Is it reasonable to think Trump suffers from mental illness?

No.

Is it reasonable to think that those who hate and despise Trump will say anything to try and convince others that he's unfit for office and a danger to this country?

Yes.
 
Wildcard said:
Is it reasonable to think Trump suffers from mental illness?

No.

Is it reasonable to think that those who hate and despise Trump will say anything to try and convince others that he's unfit for office and a danger to this country?

Yes.
Click to expand...
My sentiments exactly. They suffer from Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS). It is very similar to BDS, however people with TDS suffer from more paranoid delusions and also suffer from much more envy-driven rage due to Trump's high-profile financial success and his marriage to a hot woman much younger than himself that is way the hell out of their league.

As evidenced by the multiple terrorist attacks during Trump's inauguration celebration, people who suffer from TDS tend to display more violent psychotic breaks than those who merely suffer from BDS.

Also threads on social media like this one indicate that they also use psychological projection as a misguided and self-destructive coping mechanism. They consciously or subconsciously know that they are mentally ill, and project that flaw onto Trump.
 
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Ok guys...let's get back to the topic and the intent of the Debate Now forum.

This was set up so the OP determines the rules although Z2 Rules apply.

Debate Now is NOT for everyone, so if you are uncomfortable with the strictures - don't participate.

The "boiled down" rules for this discussion, seperated from the opening argument are as follows:

Thread Debate Topic/Assertions:
In this thread, posters present arguments for one of the two following positions:
  • Donald Trump appears to have NPD, dementia or another mental disorder/shortcoming (If not dementia or NPD, identify the disorder/shortcoming.).
  • Donald Trump does not appear to have NPD, dementia or any other mental shortcoming.
Those are the only two positions to be argued.


Thread Discussion/Posting Rules:
As this is the SDF, it goes without saying that Zone 2 Rules are in effect, so if you cannot follow those rules and the following ones, don't post.
  1. You must either expound upon the argument presented in the OP or you must present a fully developed argument (nor a claim that's not supported with an argument) of your own (or expound upon someone else's fully developed argument) to refute the following assertion:
    • Donald Trump does not appear to have NPD, dementia or any other mental shortcoming.
  2. Arguments made for the OP's assertion or for the counter assertion noted above must be presented only with regard to the nature and extent to which they apply to Donald Trump and the extent to which his behaviors and comments do or do not indicate there is a reasonable chance he has NPD. The behaviors and words of other individuals vis a vis whether they exhibit signs of NPD are not eligible for introduction in this thread. This thread is not about how anyone else behaves or whether anyone else seems to suffer from NPD. Those people are not the current President of the United States.
  3. You may not make brief unsubstantiated assertions. You must credible references that literally and contextually support your claims. That means if someone checks your references, they must be found to have taken things out of context, where appropriate have documented methodologies and you can only cite specific quotes Trump made and/or expert opinion. You cannot cite editorial opinion offered by non-mental health professionals.

The OP is looking for indepth discussion within very specific parameters. Let's see who's up to the challenge :)
 
Xelor your post is the longest in all Internet history lol :biggrin:
Anyway I don't think Mr. Trump is a mentally ill person and least of all a person who suffers from dementia o_O
Unfortunately I've seen people with dementia and they're totally different from Mr. Trump's behaviour in my opinion.
 
esthermoon said:
Xelor your post is the longest in all Internet history lol :biggrin:
Anyway I don't think Mr. Trump is a mentally ill person and least of all a person who suffers from dementia o_O
Unfortunately I've seen people with dementia and they're totally different from Mr. Trump's behaviour in my opinion.
Click to expand...


Esthermoon, what sort of differences - can you expound on that, and perhaps offer up a source to back it up? :)
 
Coyote said:
esthermoon said:
Xelor your post is the longest in all Internet history lol :biggrin:
Anyway I don't think Mr. Trump is a mentally ill person and least of all a person who suffers from dementia o_O
Unfortunately I've seen people with dementia and they're totally different from Mr. Trump's behaviour in my opinion.
Click to expand...


Esthermoon, what sort of differences - can you expound on that, and perhaps offer up a source to back it up? :)
Click to expand...

She was offering personal opinion and most likely could not offer up links to support her personal opinion.

In my personal opinion and note it is personal from watching him so in my opinion Donald John Trump suffer from mental illness but so do most if not all humans and if you ask for a link I will tell you once again it is my personal opinion!

Now do I believe it will affect his performance as President?

Not anymore than it hampered Reagan or Nixon.

Again personal opinion and the OP'er OP was too damn long and will be honest will not waste much time on this subject because the OP'ER want to control what someone write to the point silenting those that disagree with the OP'ER...
 
Coyote said:
esthermoon said:
Xelor your post is the longest in all Internet history lol :biggrin:
Anyway I don't think Mr. Trump is a mentally ill person and least of all a person who suffers from dementia o_O
Unfortunately I've seen people with dementia and they're totally different from Mr. Trump's behaviour in my opinion.
Click to expand...


Esthermoon, what sort of differences - can you expound on that, and perhaps offer up a source to back it up? :)
Click to expand...
Hi Coyote :bye1:
two years ago I've worked as a assistant in a retirement home and I've seen some old people (to be honest some of them weren't old at all... :( ) with various types of dementia.
They had a very strange behaviour: they said irrational things, they didn't understand the value of money and they made...strange expressions with their faces...
I can't see anything like that when I see president Trump :)
 
Bruce_T_Laney said:
Coyote said:
esthermoon said:
Xelor your post is the longest in all Internet history lol :biggrin:
Anyway I don't think Mr. Trump is a mentally ill person and least of all a person who suffers from dementia o_O
Unfortunately I've seen people with dementia and they're totally different from Mr. Trump's behaviour in my opinion.
Click to expand...


Esthermoon, what sort of differences - can you expound on that, and perhaps offer up a source to back it up? :)
Click to expand...

She was offering personal opinion and most likely could not offer up links to support her personal opinion.

In my personal opinion and note it is personal from watching him so in my opinion Donald John Trump suffer from mental illness but so do most if not all humans and if you ask for a link I will tell you once again it is my personal opinion!

Now do I believe it will affect his performance as President?

Not anymore than it hampered Reagan or Nixon.

Again personal opinion and the OP'er OP was too damn long and will be honest will not waste much time on this subject because the OP'ER want to control what someone write to the point silenting those that disagree with the OP'ER...
Click to expand...


I know, I'm trying to enourage discussion in the direction of the OP's rules :)
 
The Irish Ram said:
Kat said:
Xelor said:
I will argue for the following:
  • Donald Trump appears to have NPD, dementia or another mental disorder/shortcoming (If not dementia or NPD, identify the disorder/shortcoming.).
Click to expand...



If he were to have such, it isn't very becoming to make fun of, discuss on a message board etc. 3 weeks ago today my mother died of Alzheimer's. Trust me. It is nothing to lightly accuse anyone of having.
Click to expand...

Kat, I'm sorry you lost your mom. It is a hideous disease.
Click to expand...


Thank you TIR. And yes it is. That's why I do not take it lightly. Lots of suffering involved.



The OP and I did a bit of discussing in PM. I understand where he is coming from better now.
 
esthermoon said:
Xelor your post is the longest in all Internet history lol :biggrin:
Anyway I don't think Mr. Trump is a mentally ill person and least of all a person who suffers from dementia o_O
Unfortunately I've seen people with dementia and they're totally different from Mr. Trump's behaviour in my opinion.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of single line sentences and links. The bulk of it is links to illustrate examples of the noted behavior and allow readers to check the details for themselves in case they care to refute my classification of one or several noted behaviors vis a vis the DSM-V guideline for what behaviors indicate NPD. To the best of my ability, I wanted to provide more than just one example of at least five of the behaviors. I think I did so for all but one behavior.

If you don't think so, great. Present your argument -- in accordance with the thread's first rule -- that shows he has not seemingly exhibited five of the behaviors that augur for one's having NPD, thus it's implausible to think he suffers from NPD.

I didn't argue that Trump might have dementia. I argued that he might have NPD and I illustrated many examples of his behavior that suggest that is indeed what a qualified therapist would find were s/he to evaluate Trump.
 
Bruce_T_Laney said:
She was offering personal opinion and most likely could not offer up links to support her personal opinion.

In my personal opinion and note it is personal from watching him so in my opinion Donald John Trump suffer from mental illness but so do most if not all humans and if you ask for a link I will tell you once again it is my personal opinion!
Click to expand...


I realize that people can have personal opinions. I realize that for most USMB threads, having and sharing one's personal opinion is all that's expected. This thread is different. I'm looking for conversation about the topic only with people who are willing to clearly argue for one of the two propositions offered in the OP and provide support (linked content) for their opinion. I'm just not in this thread looking for input from people who aren't willing to do that.

The reason for that is I put a lot of effort into forming my own opinion and I don't care, or care to read, what folks who've not given the matter a comparable degree of consideration think or have to say about it...at least not in this thread. Does that mean there'll only be two, maybe three (including myself) people participating in the conversation (as per the thread rules)? Probably, but that's fine. One other person and I debating rigorously is sufficient as far as I'm concerned. We both only have so much free time. One really good debater is enough.
 
Last edited:
Xelor said:
Bruce_T_Laney said:
She was offering personal opinion and most likely could not offer up links to support her personal opinion.

In my personal opinion and note it is personal from watching him so in my opinion Donald John Trump suffer from mental illness but so do most if not all humans and if you ask for a link I will tell you once again it is my personal opinion!
Click to expand...


I realize that people can have personal opinions. I realize that for most USMB threads, having and sharing one's personal opinion is all that's expected. This thread is different. I'm looking for conversation about the topic only with people who are willing to clearly argue for one of the two propositions offered in the OP and provide support (linked content) for their opinion. I'm just not in this thread looking for input from people who aren't willing to do that.

The reason for that is I put a lot of effort into forming my own opinion and I don't care, or care to read, what folks who've not given the matter a comparable degree of consideration think or have to say about it...at least not in this thread. Does that mean there'll only be two, maybe three (including myself) people participating in the conversation (as per the thread rules)? Probably, but that's fine. One other person and I debating rigorously is sufficient as far as I'm concerned. We both only have so much free time. One really good debater is enough.
Click to expand...

As I wrote above you are not interested in any form of debate and just want to limit what other's others will write.

The reality is you are not Trump doctor nor do you have any information on Trump medical records and even if you did and if you work in the medical field you can not discuss his medical conditions without his permission.

So the thread is based on your opinion even though you will disagree. Also your thread was long winded not worth reading the entire op, so many will not even entertain you.

So please tell someone that cares about your opinion of Trump mental health and before you comment I am some Trumpeter please note during 2016 I kept on writing about I wanted Trump mental health records released if his voters wanted Clinton medical records, so I already thought he was insane but without access to his mental health records I do not nor will I even attempt to figure out what the mental midgets suffer from.

Now sit here and wait for those that agree with you and enjoy your pointless debate!
 
No, Trump does not appear to have any of the symptoms of mental illness.

XXXX -- Mod Edit - Terms of Structured debate EXCLUDE personal flaming.



"Waxman and Geschwind were the first to describe hypergraphia. The patients they observed displayed extensively compulsive detailed writing, sometimes with literary creativity. The patients kept diaries, which some used to meticulously document minute details of their everyday activities, write poetry, or create lists. Case 1 of their study wrote lists of her relatives, her likes and dislikes, and the furniture in her apartment. Besides lists, the patient wrote poetry, often with a moral or philosophical undertone. She described an incident in which she wrote the lyrics of a song she learned when she was 17 several hundred times and another incident in which she felt the urge to write a word over and over again. Another patient wrote aphorisms and certain sentences in repetition.[2]"



Hypergraphia - Wikipedia
 
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